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  1. #91
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    I agree 100% with OrangeAppled. When I was looking back at my own failures to establish the kind of relationship that I wanted, I saw that the single most common factor was me. So, I've been worked on myself. This isn't rocket surgery!
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  2. #92
    Senior Member valentine's Avatar
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    In a cultural context, men are seen as the initiators. So, unless you can weather the storm and wait on some charming, wonderful ENTJ to fall out of the sky, and she miraculously craves your affection, the best thing would be to change how you approach the situation. INFPs are dead against any change that goes against their nature, and as they'd generally much rather be the recipient of the initial out-pour of affection, this provides a great obstacle to overcome (Dream in Gaiman's Sandman in my favorite example of an infp reacting negatively to change). So we're stuck with either masquerading around as something we aren't, and actually be the initator (estj-suit in fact does not suit us), or stop looking. Now stop looking isn't the same as giving up, just actively pursuing. Just get out there and so something, be happy, things tend to happen when you're not looking for them. There are two options, you'll regret both of them, so just pick one.
    Also no guy is a nice guy, just as no girl is a nice girl, people always act in their self-interest, so instead of keeping your cards pinned to your chest, lay them out for others to see.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    The difference in what, Syn? Why women find friends that try to manipulate them into having sex a turn off, but find men that sleep around a turn on? (I assume the oversimplification was intentional.)

    The simple answer is that women find the first man weak, and the second man powerful. They may not like the second man, but there is something very sexual about such blatant power. Many women find it to be a turn on. They may like the first guy, but there's nothing sexual about a weak-willed man.
    Yes the biological clock too, the most masculine reference, the most seemingly able to push the right buttons for the sexual attractions gets the rewards.



    I watched Beauty and the Geek some time ago. The show placed geeks with babes and had competitions. The interesting aspect for me was when an additional Hunk and geeky girl was introduced. The sleaze factor was a turn on and he was flirting and sleeping around, saying being attractive is a 24/7 occupation, he was a bar person. While the babes expressed their emotionality with the geeks who listened, the hunk scored. And visa vis, the geeks liked the geeky girl more because they know they had no chance with the babes.

    Exaggerated example but amused by the premise.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think women in this category would do the the opposite, for the most part. Become more independent, and probably visualize the reality of living her life alone, not meeting Mr Right at all. I think younger women who haven't lived much yet are more clingy, whiny, and dependent, looking for a man to idolize, hence the cliche older man/younger woman syndrome.



    What? You went out one time? srsly. You just aren't meeting the right type of women. It takes a lot of getting-out-there time doing-different-activities time to meet the right woman/women. You have to give it a long time to happen maybe, but they are there. You can make this more efficient by knowing what type(s) you are attracted to, and getting out in the world.



    Friend zone is good. It's like your little black book. Continue to look for Ms. Right but don't ignore your gfs because one of them could turn into Ms. Right--circumstances change. Know when and when not to inititiate physical contact. Trust your intuition here. Don't talk to women when you are super randy......you don't want to be thinking totally with your #$%^!



    For some women. Go figure. What udog said. But those relationships aren't really about building a long-term foundation, are they?



    You are missing the point and thanks for answering.

    I was bringing to the fore why nice guys may be seen as jerky schmucks.
    And that the perception is off, to present how this would feel for a girl had she had to deal with loneliness without attraction and Id like to add a biological clock. Yes you can say you'd focus on work, but the fact is your ability to perform would be drastically different then. Then imagine that INFP men are expected to be initiators and masculine when they are neither. Then imagine that a women is brought up in an environment that fosters her needs to emotional intelligence and her social quotient is satisfied much more, as is her drive with a biological clock. In that sense after a relationship you have your baby, then your direction, social needs are maintained. You created life that is propping you up, the loneliness is that much greater for men. Well that is my theory.

    My mother does this and she is married, she is so incredibly lonely she is now a compulsive mess without restraint and will drive any sane person a bit batty. And that's in a relationship with a husband who lacks emotional intelligence.

    I'm trying to challenge the ideas, and the psychology behind the nice effect. Because then yeah women will be just as clingy and whiny with prolonged loneliness.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    Believe me, you may see a lot of women with the typical "player" guy who attracts the opposite sex like flies to honey (couldn't think of a better analogy, lol), but when it comes down to having an actual relationship and the possibility of marriage and raising a family, I think most healthy women will definitely settle with the "nice" guy. This can be proved biologically, too. (Google it.)

    It's not the fact that you're an INFP or a "nice guy" that's giving you trouble, it's the fact that you aren't confident in yourself around women.

    I think if you try working on your confidence a little each day, you won't feel as if you need to get in a serious relationship with every girl you become close to. You'll know that you are capable of finding and choosing your own partner.
    As the happily married wife of an INFP, this advice is sage and golden. We want nice guys to settle down with. My friends are always asking me where they can find a guy like my husband. We want a few good men.

    Be confident -- you have a lot to offer and reason to be confident! Go after the girl you want and don't settle for friendship, if that isn't what you want. You have enough friends and you're looking for something more - walk away...and know that you will find it.

  6. #96
    Senior Member SerengetiBetty's Avatar
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    Sometimes people can be attracted to the wrong people. Sometimes people are attracted to people they know they don't have a chance to be with because the experience validates the feelings they have about themselves.

    Being INFP male doesn't automatically equal clingy,emotional wreck doormat. Play to your strengths instead of focusing on your weaknesses. INFP guys definitely have things to offer. 3 weeks ago I was complaining about needing to find a man with bigger balls than I have and between now and then I've met a really cool INFP guy who's self assured, funny and charming. I see no hint of clinginess. of course, it could all be a huge act but I don't think so. What happens 1 month from now remains to b seen but at last at this moment after a few dates he still hasthis ENTP's attention.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Then imagine that INFP men are expected to be initiators and masculine when they are neither.
    I can personally vouch for this NOT being true. Keep working on yourself and try not to let yourself become so jaded, my friend.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have a feeling the lonely man is only seeing the "players" succeed because it justifies his paranoia and situation. His perspective is distorted. He's blind to all the good guys who are succeeding. If he saw them he'd have to admit to himself where he has gone wrong, and he could no longer be the martyr.

    I also notice a blaming of other people (mainly women) for this lonely man's problems. It's their fault he is not getting attention from women, their fault he cannot express himself, their fault he is in the "friend zone", etc. Why does he not evaluate his own actions & how they lead to these results?

    It seems some honest self-analysis and changes are needed. Often, guys like this see becoming a "bad boy" as the solution, but that's the easy way. That's basically a wolf coming out of it's sheep costume. The anger and bitterness towards women was already there, and women were smelling it from a mile away, but it's worse when it's mixed with being clingy. The hard way is to change your perspective for the positive, to acknowledge your flaws without glossing them over (I'm too "nice" - uh huh), to see women as individual humans and not a homogeneous mass, etc. That's the way that pays off in the long run.

    Also, in my personal observations, guys who complain about not being able to nab a gf also have ridiculously high standards. They often have little to offer in any area, but want some gorgeous, brilliant woman to chase after them.
    Yes I agree and disagree.

    Again you have to place this into context OrangedAppled. Would that people go a bit nuts in solitary confinement in a week. Then imagine if you yourself were unable to attract. The insecurity in your ability to be an attractor would manifest. This then creates a snow ball effect, the longer this continues, the worse this gets. And yes you are right. I agree with much of what Heartless Bitches International is about, I promote the site myself. Its just that the worst part is the fall out effect, feeling sorry for yourself, as your saying getting into that paranoia, distorted state, the blame game, the martyr syndrome. Its all about how to reign in the exaggerated distortions and settle. You say blaming other women that its their fault for not getting attention, you are putting my words out of context. I was challenging the notion.

    What gets me is the lines underneath it all. While the ladies signal their intentions the blokes have to do the asking. In other words you passively indicate what you want and generally expect the opposite sex to ask. And being born attractive or a female normally this aspect becomes easy. To the point you receive unwanted attention all the time. Then imagine if you had a starvation, as a role reversal, to be placed in the other side for a sec. The difference then would be completely different.

    Why does he not evaluate his actions and how they lead to these results. But see isn't that just the quagmire, actions vs intentions. Yes Honest self analysis and changes are needed in both men and women, men more so that are unsuccessful but for goodness sakes, women shouldn't be scott free from this either. The self analysis and changes which is far easier when you have an action man around to push the flaws in a croner and not bother seeing your own insecurities and vulnerabilities. As much as it is hard for the bloke to do, the ego mind is a curiosity yeah. Especially in terms of a persons ability to be healthy, willingness to change, to have the awareness. Yes naturally to acknowledge the flaws.

    Just saying. sheepish grin.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    I can personally vouch for this NOT being true. Keep working on yourself and try not to let yourself become so jaded, my friend.
    Slip of the tongue.

    I meant a quiet masculinity with developed maturity when in season. But completely immature when out of season just like any other. Yes I know INFP men when confident ooze masculine intent that is initiatory. I'm trying to point out the insecurity that manifest when confidence and self belief has left the building.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    What gets me is the lines underneath it all. While the ladies signal their intentions the blokes have to do the asking. In other words you passively indicate what you want and generally expect the opposite sex to ask. And being born attractive or a female normally this aspect becomes easy. To the point you receive unwanted attention all the time. Then imagine if you had a starvation, as a role reversal, to be placed in the other side for a sec. The difference then would be completely different.
    This is an unfortunate by product of society dating back a long way and perputuated by males. Women who try to break out of this stereotype are labeled "aggressive." I think this can hardly be blamed on the female gender.

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