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  1. #31
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    By the way, I never play devil's advocate.

    Doing so seems both inefficient and unproductive.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  2. #32
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    This isn't devil's advocate so much as not being willing to commit to a POV because life is full of so many variables that to "be sure" is just illogical. So whatever 100% chips down statement is made, an INxJ will illuminate the other possible outcomes, no matter how unlikely they will be. Dom Ni.

    I've found myself and other INxJ individuals to constantly take the opposing viewpoint.

    ex: INTJ classmate with a perfect GPA on a full courseload, who regularly misses 3 weeks a term to compete at a world-level for a raquet sport that he spends hours a day training for, and had awesome letters of rec was applying for medical school.

    I said to him one time in the fall after he pwned the MCAT, "c'mon, seriously, there's no way you won't get in." And he gave me a two minute lecture about why he might not get in (for instance, he was a year younger than everyone else because he was moved up a grade).

    Then we were talking about it several months later, and I said, "well, you have a great chance of getting in, but if you aren't accepted this year, you can concentrate on your sport and reapply in the fall." He then gave me a two minute lecture about why he has worked really hard (always crediting it to his work ethic, not inborn tendencies) and the system is set up to reward those who are committed and serious students, and therefore he should be accepted.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #33
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Ok, I'm not sure what Eli Whitney has to do with this, but I would like to point out that he had to be right AND wrong in order to create the cotton gin.
    Actually, he was just totally wrong for stealing credit for his slave's invention.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    By the way, I never play devil's advocate.

    Doing so seems both inefficient and unproductive.
    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Is it really though? Often you're just going to derail people and confuse the real point of the topic with countless asides, and it basically makes people more consider how airtight their point is so you can't really waste time arguing against it, instead of advancing the discussion properly.
    Example

    There was a newspaper article, and a whole lot of people were praising some woman who set fire to some sleazy guy's penis in a bar because he flashed it at her then tried to grope her. I just wrote, "note to self: set fire to next ugly woman in bar who flashes her breasts at me and tries to grope me."

    Low effort, high efficiency, and helps people stop dreaming about doing grievous bodily harm to the opposite sex, hopefully.

    Also, it opens the debate and puts the debate in context. Is it different when it happens the other way? Are there different rules for each sex, or when it can't happen to you? Are you going to say one was self defense because men are stronger and more threatening, etc? Did the act justify the reaction? As I said, I like Devil's advocate as a tool.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  5. #35
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    By the way, I never play devil's advocate.

    Doing so seems both inefficient and unproductive.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #37
    Member Faine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriana View Post
    Oooh, can I mention how 'Right' and 'Wrong' are subjective terms and no matter how right we all are we will always be wrong somewhere?

    Too soon?

    Did someone mention cereal? *holds spoon with anticipation*
    This thread seems to be getting quite a bit of attention. *brandishes spoon* Pass the sugar, eh?

    Getting back on point: I have the same problem with the Devil's Advocate thing that you do. I can't seem to help myself either and usually don't even realise I'm doing it until people start getting irritated and I find myself saying things like "I was just SAYING..." and "Calm down, I know, I agree with you but..." Honestly, I irritate myself with the whole thing. I think it's important to get people to look at all sides of something, but I don't much like the way I do it, nor how I instinctively start doing it without even realising it until people are getting angry. It's probably the single most frustrating way I manage to unintentionally annoy people and create conflicts I don't want. I mostly reign it in now, or at least do it in a frank way like "have you considered this?" rather than making them feel that I actually believe what I'm arguing. I suppose like with many things, it's all in the tone and the way you say something more so than what you're actually saying.
    INFJ 9w1.

  8. #38
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    I tend to do it too. Especially regarding religion and philosophy.

  9. #39
    Senior Member whimsical's Avatar
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    I like to play that game sometimes for the mere amusement of it
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #40
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriana View Post
    I was just thinking about something I have the propensity to do that regularly irritates those around me, and I wondered if any of you could relate. Not sure if it's actually a strictly INFJ thing or not.

    I tend to constantly play devil's advocate and argue an opposing side, even if I agree with the person I'm talking to.

    Whenever I get upset at some injustice, or form an opinion on world affairs or the way people treat each other, whatever it is I will sit there inside my head examining the entire thing from all angles. Trying to slip myself into the shoes of all sides and see what there is to see. Sometimes the idea of taking an absolutely staunch position on things can feel akin to closing off my mind. I always want to learn as much as possible, and I guess I feel that if I commit to one concrete angle I will be blinding myself to enlightenment I might receive from the other side were I to remain open.

    So when people come at me sometimes with their arguments I might start taking up the opposing side if I start feeling like the person hasn't even given the other side ONE THOUGHT. If they don't throw qualifiers in there like "I can see this point from the opposing forces but..." or "I know from another perspective it appears as..." or other such things and just STEAMROLL, I'll just find myself bringing up all these counterpoints EVEN IF I AGREE with the other person. My aim honestly is not to WIN anything, I'm really just asking if they have considered the mindset of the opposing side. Still, more often than not whomever I get into these discussions with will eventually throw their hands up and say "Fine, you win, whatever, you're fucking impossible" or similar, lol. (Also, they will get extremely pissed once I calm my shit down and let them know just how much I really did hear their side and how much validity I agree is there, hehe)

    My ESTP friend once said "You're the only person I know who can feel the same way I do about something but make me feel like a bastard for feeling that way". I acknowledge my pain-in-the-ass tendencies, I try really hard to explain my compulsions but it can prove difficult.

    I'm also a complete and utter hypocrite, I admit it, and I do seem to have a knack for frustrating people to absolute hair pulling. Some issues I don't wane from, and I usually have way more stamina for arguing my point (because I'm a loquacious bastard like that). The same ESTP has tried to take up the same method of counter attack from the opposing side but can't seem to do it, I can't describe the level of pissed off he's gotten at me at times.

    One of my favorite things that he's ever said to me was "No, thank you for this, I have a reason to live now, I'm hanging on until I figure out how to destroy you", lol.

    I can't help myself!!!
    I totally do this and I completely get where you're coming from.

    Some people misunderstand this as being 'argument for arguments sake' or you just being a know-it-all asshole - not true. I personally feel compelled to do it. Hearing self-satisfied, 'its all black and white' responses to a complex issue galls me. I look it at all points of view, weighing the validity of each and come up a position of sorts (this position often reflects on the compexity of any given issue and that there is no easy answer). It can be extremely difficult for me to agree with people, even if they have the same basic position as me, when they approach it from an angle of ignorance.

    One of my biggest debate points is the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I am often arguing with people about it. People that are pro-Israel often accuse me of being having a palestinian bias and supporting terrorism. Yet Palestinian supporters accuse me of being pro-Israel and supporting the oppressors and occupiers. That's because I try to balance the argument - I see both perspective and I hate when people reduce it down to side-taking, 'with us or against us' mentality.

    I think its extremely important for people to question and their own beliefs. Its helps them to achieve greater clarity - to know that their belief can stand up to any argument and that they are justified in their position. And if people won't challenge their own beliefs I feel compelled to do it for them. I don't mean to be inconsiderate nor do I mean to stir up trouble. Sometimes my passionate defence of a perspective can annoy people and I do feel bad about it but honestly I can't help it. People need to learn to be a little more broad minded, to take caution when forming their opinions and to appreciate the complexity of human behaviour and interaction.

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