[INFJ] INFJ Grudges? * help please :( *

[Lauren Ashley]

Whether you're holding ill feelings towards the person or not, if whatever your thoughts or feelings are towards that person are kept to yourself and the only clue they have to go by is your behaviour towards them and that behaviour is to avoid them ever since they said something that offended you, then that other person will very, very likely perceive you to be holding a grudge.

It's like I'm speaking Martian or something! Why does what I'm saying keep coming across as unreasonable? Do INFJ's not understand the concept that other people can't read minds?

It's not unreasonable. Your perspective is valid even if your conclusions about the motivation for such behavior is incorrect. But we're all just saying that that is not what a grudge is, you're assuming it is a grudge because of what you see on the surface.

 

[nightning]

Whether you're holding ill feelings towards the person or not, if whatever your thoughts or feelings are towards that person are kept to yourself and the only clue they have to go by is your behaviour towards them and that behaviour is to avoid them ever since they said something that offended you, then that other person will very, very likely perceive you to be holding a grudge.

It's like I'm speaking Martian or something! Why does what I'm saying keep coming across as unreasonable? Do INFJ's not understand the concept that other people can't read minds?

I must be the Martian...

You're not expected to read minds... like I can't read your mind to find out why you would perceive avoidance as a grunge. To assign beliefs like that is assuming you can read minds...

I guess from all that what you wanted to say is you would like people to be direct and tell you what's on their minds? If people ask me directly... I tell them. Or if I don't feel comfortable, I tell them I don't want to discuss it now... but if you ask me pointed questions are you feeling XXX I'm okay with answering yes or no.

Let's play 20 questions with the Martian! What fun.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

You're not expected to read minds... like I can't read your mind to find out why you would perceive avoidance as a grunge. To assign beliefs like that is assuming you can read minds...

I already said irony was the word of the day, right? ...Okay, just checking

 

[Giggly]

Maybe it's my T-ness showing here, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it. If the situation's been acknowledged and discussed over the years, and everyone was pretty sure that he was the dad anyway, including her and the dad, how does that change the relationship fundamentally? I mean, didn't she already have a father/daughter relationship with this man?

I was wondering the exact same thing but then I realized that it's possible that this could have to do with just the sisters. You know like, she feels "different" or like an outsider or not so bonded with them now and she resents that?

Or maybe she's mad at Mom for making her waste years being angry at the man who turned out to not be her father. i.e. her saying "MY parents WEREN'T divorced."

 

[substitute]

It's not unreasonable. Your perspective is valid even if your conclusions about the motivation for such behavior is incorrect. But we're all just saying that that is not what a grudge is, you're assuming it is a grudge because of what you see on the surface.

*picks self up off floor and calls janitor to sweep up clumps of torn out hair*

*I* am not assuming ANYTHING. I'm just telling you that MOST PEOPLE will assume that!

 

[Lauren Ashley]

*picks self up off floor and calls janitor to sweep up clumps of torn out hair*

*I* am not assuming ANYTHING. I'm just telling you that MOST PEOPLE will assume that!

See your first post in this thread (and subsequent posts as well, that I am too tired to quote):

outrageous to try and say it's not an INFJ thing to hold grudges. just outrageous!

they like, founded and run the national university of grudge holding! srsly!

That's an assumption. You're assuming that INFJs hold grudges. If you're going to deny what you've said, at least do it in separate threads.

For the record, no one is saying that no INFJs hold grudges, but that they specifically do not.

 

[substitute]

See your first post in this thread (and subsequent posts as well, that I am too tired to quote):


That's an assumption. You're assuming that INFJs hold grudges. If you're going to deny what you've said, at least do it in separate threads.

For the record, no one is saying that no INFJs hold grudges, but that they specifically do not.

that's an assumption.

It was actually a joke, I thought pretty obviously. a joke to introduce a more subtle, serious point. it's my way

 

[Lauren Ashley]

It was actually a joke. Pretty obviously!

Sure. That's what they all say. It may have been exaggerated, but your follow-up posts backed up your opening statement. And a person could easily find other similar posts you've made about INFJs on this forum.

a joke to introduce a more subtle, serious point. it's my way

So you do believe that a grudge is being held and that is your main issue.

Call me back to this thread when you're ready to stop contradicting yourself.

 

[substitute]

Sure. That's what they all say. It may have been exaggerated, but your follow-up posts backed up your opening statement. And a person could easily find other similar posts you've made about INFJs on this forum.


So you do believe that a grudge is being held and that is your main issue.

Call me back to this thread when you're ready to stop contradicting yourself.

no. I believe that, for the billionth time, the behaviour of avoiding people for a long time after they offended you, for whatever your internal reason, will be perceived as a grudge by most people. and my main issue or point is that the reason for this is because the INFJ tends to keep their real reasons to themselves, therefore not giving "the great unwashed" any reason to perceive that behaviour any differently to how they would (very often correctly) perceive it in most non-INFJ's.

I believe that has been my point pretty consistently, dear. That you've found a dizzying number of ways to twist and misinterpret it wasn't part of my design.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Okay, that wasn't your point from the beginning. Please stick to your arguments or don't make them. But anyone can go back to page 2 to see what your original point was so no need in me quoting and pointing it out over and over.

Anyway, done with this thread. Next.

 

[cafe]

I am having a hard time trying to explain how this works for me, because I can very easily see other people's perspectives but I can also sometimes be unreasonable. It isn't exactly like holding a grudge most of the time, I don't think. Right now a word picture is the best I can do.

I'm either all the way in with someone or all the way out. I don't have an in between. It's sort of like being a turtle who can't come out of their shell. I can't just stick my head, feet, and tail out and then pull them back in really quick if there is danger. I can either shut you out of my shell or I can let you into my shell.

If I'm hurt I'm not going to let you into my shell until I'm feeling better, but I can't stick my head out either. And I can't let you back into my shell until I feel it's safe to go give you free access to all of my tender bits and vitals.

Sometimes, when I really care about the person that hurt me, it's hard to keep them out long enough to heal myself because I can hear them out there feeling hurt by me, and my only defense against that is to remember the hurt and hang on to the anger.

If I don't hear the person out there feeling bad, I can concentrate on healing up. If I do hear them, I have to keep the anger so I don't let them in before I'm ready and it makes it take longer.

I wish I wasn't like that. I don't like it and it doesn't feel good, but I don't know how to be different.

 

[Jae Rae]

Well done, Cafe. Beautifully expressed.

 

[refinnej30]

I don't hold grudges, but I can get irritable easily when I feel uncomfortable, angry, fearful or hurt. I do feel pain very deeply and distance myself (emotionally) from people who repeatly hurt me regardless of intention. I had major trust issues growing up and have a hard time deeply trusting although I long to. It's just like what cafe said. I know I am extremely tender with the words and actions of those close to me and I get hurt and need to heal. I went for a very long time not pulling back and allowing myself to heal. I got very sick physically and ended up with a chronic illness. I held that pain in so long I ended up on chemotherapy for years. I am better now, but still have to deal with health issues, especially under stress. I now let people know when they are hurting me, what they are doing and I tell them I need space. If they refuse to listen and respect me then I question whether I need to continue the relationship.

As I am maturing I am learning to look for my part in it and realize that most times people are doing the best they can and most times it's really not about me. I don't know your situation other than what I read, but you sister sounds immature and in mourning. She never knew what she had (knowing for sure) and lost it before she had it, kind of. She may have so much going on inside her head that she can't "play nice." Hopefully she will realize what she is doing and that while she may not have had confirmation, she did in fact have a relationship with with her Father. Maybe she will realize that while it was a shock, nothing really changed. I am sure she deeply loves you. You might want to purchase her a journal to write her thoughts in. Harnessing my creative talents helps me get through dark times.

 

[Thalassa]

Misty_Mountain_Rose, I don't envy your situation. INFJ's I know can't be reasoned with.



Unhealthy* ones.



I have yet to meet a healthy and interesting infj. Do they even exist? If so, they are few. Truth be told, I don't like most infj's.



*Unhealthy: Unskilled with emotions. Unable to see reason and grasp vital facts. Self-destructive. Passive aggressive.

Almost any type can have these traits, including NTs and SJs. I know an INTP who is extremely passive aggressive.

Your hatred for INFJs is equally as irrational as you're saying that they are.

One of the biggest grudge holders I know personally (IRL) is an ISFJ, not an INFJ.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

Maybe it's my T-ness showing here, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask it. If the situation's been acknowledged and discussed over the years, and everyone was pretty sure that he was the dad anyway, including her and the dad, how does that change the relationship fundamentally? I mean, didn't she already have a father/daughter relationship with this man?

The problem was that even though it had been brought up when we were younger, it wasn't talked about much. We were raised as if we all had the same father because our step-dad had a different role to fill. If you're really interested in all the details, its in my blog, but it really is complicated. I wasn't joking lol

I was wondering the exact same thing but then I realized that it's possible that this could have to do with just the sisters. You know like, she feels "different" or like an outsider or not so bonded with them now and she resents that?

Or maybe she's mad at Mom for making her waste years being angry at the man who turned out to not be her father. i.e. her saying "MY parents WEREN'T divorced."

This could be a huge part of it. It hadn't occurred to me in quite that way, but there has been a LOT of resentment toward the man she called 'Dad' for many, many years because:

A. He treated her differently. He suspected, like everyone else, that she was truly not his daughter, but he never demanded paternity tests, he simply accepted her as his own and paid child support, etc... BUT he was never there for her the same way he was for my other sister and I. (Which still wasn't a whole lot, but was more) I think he didn't want to step on her dad's territory so to speak... so there was a quiet ... resentment?... that I'm sure my sister picked up on. An NF in particular would probably be very sensitive to this kind of behaviour.

B. My Dad (the man she thought was Dad) married a crazy-insane woman when we were little after the divorce. She was abusive and scary and downright nuts. As we grew older, my other sister and I had our 'out' with her and drew the line that she now knows not to cross, but my INFJ sister was the youngest, and probably the most vulnerable to this 'bullying'. Our stepmom was aweful to all of us, but this sister was particularly affected by it. She was terrified of her. She hates our stepmom, and hates our Dad for letting her get away with such BS for such a long time. He would leave us there with her when she was in the middle of her drunken, screaming tirades to fend for ourselves because he couldn't handle it. It affected us all differently, but there have been long-lasting consequences for all of us from living with that kind of environment when we were growing up.

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Hey

As a former grudge-bearing person (I prefer the word vengeful), I hope I can help you understand and help your sister. Nonetheless you know your sister and I definitely do not.

First off, you can't force anyone to learn. You can advise her; if it doesn't work out she has to learn for herself what is helpful.

The first lesson to be learned is holding grudges generally hurts oneself and does not hurt the one you hold a grudge against. My former roommate A and I would have an argument (often over something trivial) and then have to attend a social gathering afterward. He could immediately let go his feelings of anger and forget while I stewed. He would be able to have fun, while I suffered. Once we were private again, I would blow up at him and he would say "What, that's your problem for not having fun." and I would respond "I can't have fun when I am angry, and you know that and therefore it's your fault." This type of argument is petty and useless. It hurt me because I didn't experience life as much as I should have and exasperated the problem.

The second lesson is that the people you hold a grudge against will eventually for one reason or another disappear from your life. Your sister needs to realize that while mourning about her father, she does have her mother, who will eventually die. Sorry for just saying that.... My personal example is that my roommate did something moronic (I don't remember what), but it didn't matter to me, because he was going to be leaving in a few days and I would never again have his friendship as much as I did now.

Another thing I would like to say is that her sudden explosions are probably based off something that seemed trivial to you, but are important to her. Sorry, I do examples; I have yelled at roommate B after having to refill the soap dispenser. I always had to refill the soap dispenser, after asking him several times to fill it when it was empty, and I always had to put new toilet paper on the roller, and the garbage, and he inconsistently cleaned his dishes....this expanded more into everything he had ever done to piss me off...which was alot as he did some things knowingly to annoy me. Next time he said a joke to me trying to be witty and clever, I would yell at him "Well, you are lazy and intolerant." and then go to my room and close the door. If he asked me what was wrong, I would respond back with "You should know what's wrong." For me logical, for him the soap was trivial enough if he didn't even bother to refill it.

I'm sorry if this was long-winded and if I offended you. I do hope you have some success, and have enough patience and love to last through it.

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Now onto the dreaded subject of whether it is INFJ behavior to have grudges. My short answer is no. I would say perhaps INFJs have a tendency to recognize a pattern of people's behaviors that cause grievance to the others faster than other types and respond appropriately.

Reading what you, Substitute, wrote, I would agree INFJ do sometimes see a pattern that isn't always there, but that it isn't really a grudge, but more of as others said a pulling away to save one from the emotional drama of this person who hurt them which can be interpreted as a grudge. The longest grudge I had with a person was a month with roommate B, who since I couldn't pull away physically, did it emotionally. It took a month for him to realize that although I was being very polite, I was angry at him.

The grudges themselves never happened to strangers; to have my wrath you must first have my love. I always believe in every sane individual is good (and evil). This for me, means that I cannot hate anyone, I may not like you at the moment, but call me in a day and you will be fine.

I also have to agree with Lauren Ashley, that type does not mean everything and that there will always be oddballs. Therefore I am more than willing to accept that I may be an oddball and that my view is in no way representative of all INFJs. Have a nice night, Keps.

 

[Alpha Prime]

Almost any type can have these traits, including NTs and SJs. I know an INTP who is extremely passive aggressive.

Every "type" can, and will.

Your hatred for INFJs is equally as irrational as you're saying that they are.

Describing my opinion of them as hatred is highly erroneous.

In my experience, the traits have been concentrated in infj's. Prove me wrong. Then call the "hatred" irrational.

 

[Werewolfen]

More power to the sister who was kept in the dark. I understand her pain, she is justified for her feelings and actions, I have people on my dad's side that totally ignored me and disowned me after my dad's death in 1982 when I was 5 yrs old. His 2 brothers had nothing to do with me just as if I had been with my dad in his fatal truck wreck. I know what its like to be kept in the dark concerning relatives. I have no uncles when people ask me. I moved 6 states away from everyone I'm related to, I wanted a clean slate, to start over. Sometimes its best to go far away , break off all contact, meet new people, change your surroundings , to put the past behind you, it has helped me move on./

 

[MrRandom]

It's like I'm speaking Martian or something! Why does what I'm saying keep coming across as unreasonable?

It doesn't. Maybe I should be quiet, because I didn't read this thread in its entirety (too much bickering involved). But I must defend you, substitute. You're making complete sense to me and you seem to understand INFJs pretty well. I don't understand where this sudden opposition is coming from. Isn't it generally agreed that INFJs use doorslam or other methods of retreat?

INFJs are hurt most easily. When someone makes a mistake, for an INFJ it's immediately about personality flaws and behavior patterns. INFJ then retreats into his/her inner world for a while. Depending on how maturely he/she handles the issue, he/she can stay distant for a while or a really long while. It can totally look like holding a grudge, and in some cases, be exactly that.