[ENFP] ENFP's and flirting

[Mr.Time]

Most men talk to a woman with the idea that she is a potential mate and I might wanna date her eventually. Otherwise why would I take the time to talk to her? (yes this is a generalization, but it's amazing how often this is the case). Whereas women tend to just be interested in the person first and afterwards go..oh ok, he could be just what I need in a man. Ok. There are exceptions where attraction at first sight is very much true, but in general it seems to be that men approach women as relationship potential/fuck potential whereas women don't really think about it that consciously. It's not the first thing on our minds when we start talking to a person.

Well, I don't see the point in talking with a female, unless for the reasons of having a relationship. What's the point? Moreover, having a girl as your "friend" just complicates everything. There will always be some level of sexual tension in the relationship that I as an INTJ just don't want to deal with. And if you tell me there isn't any feelings there, then you're just denying yourself the truth.

Evolution (if you believe in it) has led us to interact with people of the opposite sex for really only one reason, which is sex. If you look at all the other species of animals in the world, you will find that male animals interact with mostly other males (like playful wrestling or something), while female animals interact with mostly other females and their children. The only time male and female come together is to mate.

 

[Moiety]

It's not the first thing on our minds when we start talking to a person.

lol. Well then chronically flirty girls sure have a way of showing that.

But anyway, what do you that is then?


And, I don't think I agree with you at all.

Just because we don't come right out and say "hey, I dont like you like that" doesn't mean we aren't totally pleased to be interacting with you.

Could you please clarify what you are saying? And, sorry. I have a hard time believing flirting is how most ENFPs get to know other people. Do you flirt with everyone? And if not, why? What is the criteria for flirting?

 

[Amargith]

Well, I don't see the point in talking with a female, unless for the reasons of having a relationship. What's the point? Moreover, having a girl as your "friend" just complicates everything. There will always be some level of sexual tension in the relationship that I as an INTJ just don't want to deal with. And if you tell me there isn't any feelings there, then you're just denying yourself the truth.

Evolution (if you believe in it) has led us to interact with people of the opposite sex for really only one reason, which is sex. If you look at all the other species of animals in the world, you will find that male animals interact with mostly other males (like playful wrestling or something), while female animals interact with mostly other females and their children. The only time male and female come together is to mate.

That is your view. And that's where you are radically different from ENFPs. The E means we *need* human contact. Not just for mating. If that were the case, I wouldn't even be on here, as I already have a partner. There's more to life and to people, than just having a relationship with one. And a friendship can be just as fulfilling. As you're an introvert and focussed on matters, not on people, this is not a need you're likely to experience in the same intensity she does.

In fact..one could argue you weren't upfront with her either. You didn't tell her that the only reason you talked to her, was coz you eventually wanted to bed her, and build a life with her. Why not? Coz it's self-evident *to you*. She sought friendship which is self evident *to her*, you sought a relationship. So can you really blame her for what she did, without being a hypocrite?

lol. Well then chronically flirty girls sure have a way of showing that.

But anyway, what do you that is then?


And, I don't think I agree with you at all.

No surprise there

I don't open with flirting. I'll usually first observe someone I find interesting. And I'll often talk to them a little first to get a feel for who they are. Once I get an opening, and it feels alright to do so, I'll toss in a flirty remark. This can be the first or second thing I say to them yes, but often it's not. It will take a while for the opportunity to present itself. Why do I bother? Coz it tends to baffle them. It breaks the ice, tends to put a big smile on their face and it intrigues them. Entices them to notice you more, if you will. And since I'm intrigued in getting to know them, it's the most efficient way to do so. Do I go about it as calculated as I make it sound now? No..but I'm trying to disect it now to explain it to you.

 

[Lady_X]

in a way, i think what's perceived as flirting is truly the way enfp's get to know other people. it's a playful attitude and accepting attitude. Just because we don't come right out and say "hey, I dont like you like that" doesn't mean we aren't totally pleased to be interacting with you. Do yall have issues keeping platonic friends? or even making them in the first place? Because every male friend I seem to make...no matter how much I clearly state "we are just friends" ends up either trying to persuade me to be romantically interested the whole time or getting really pissed and we don't talk anymore. It sucks....I don't know how not to flirt....or whatever it is I do.

yeah...i think there are some people who just read attention of any kind as flirtatious if it's from the opposite sex.

 

[Charmed Justice]

I think it also has to do with the fundamental difference in biology. Most men talk to a woman with the idea that she is a potential mate and I might wanna date her eventually. Otherwise why would I take the time to talk to her? (yes this is a generalization, but it's amazing how often this is the case). Whereas women tend to just be interested in the person first and afterwards go..oh ok, he could be just what I need in a man. Ok. There are exceptions where attraction at first sight is very much true, but in general it seems to be that men approach women as relationship potential/fuck potential whereas women don't really think about it that consciously. It's not the first thing on our minds when we start talking to a person.

Exactly, many men talk to a woman with the full intention of getting to know her so that he can have sex with her, or pursue her romantically. This could be just deceiving and just as much of a let down to a woman who only expects friendship as it is for some men to have a woman flirting without intentions of moving forward romantically. She may think, "Here I am, thinking that you actually want to be my friend, and the only reason you're listening to me is because you want to pursue a sexual relationship".

And further, once many men find out that a sexual relationship is not in the cards, they disappear, confirming for the woman--rightly or wrongly-- that he had no real interest in getting to know her in the first place.

in a way, i think what's perceived as flirting is truly the way enfp's get to know other people. it's a playful attitude and accepting attitude.

This. I mean, so many things could be perceived as flirting.

Just because we don't come right out and say "hey, I dont like you like that" doesn't mean we aren't totally pleased to be interacting with you.

This too. Just because a woman is deeply interested in you, doesn't mean she is deeply interested in you. With ENFPs, we're kinda interested in everyone. We want to know you, but that doesn't mean we want to commit to you, or have sex with you. It's best to ask us straight out where things are going before you assume you know our inner most feelings, which we often keep inside.

 

[Moiety]

Sy, it's not coz you can read something, that you can interpret it perfectly. I can read what someone is feeling, but the way they will interpret those feelings and use them is an entirely different thing. Realizing someone is in love with you is an interpretation..not something you read. You read warmth, closeness, comfortableness, feeling special, causing soothing emotions and blissfull ones in the other and vice versa. But..since I'm experiencing the same as they are and I'm not in love..how am I to know that the other will consider it infatuation? That's what I mean with doing something with that info..it's an entirely different skill.

Because you aren't self-centered. You know there are other people around you that think slightly or even radically different. Because you aren't naive in other aspects and because this one deserves just as much attention. More so because you're a feeler and you care about others' feelings. And because you know exactly what kind of response being flirting is going to cause, and you can read between the lines.

I don't mean to limit all playfullness to flirting. But, it is the type of playfulness I enjoy most, my personal style if you will. I can be playful without flirting too, by being silly and absurd, but my signature style is by sexual innuendo. I see no reason to limit myself, if all participants are up for it

Oh, missed this post. But yeah, you shouldn't. If all participants are up for it sure. If you have a clear conscience and you don't feel you are leading people on. But, hey, I'm not here trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm just saying that for every action there's a consequence, and that people should be honest with themselves first and foremost if they want to ignore all that.

 

[Lady_X]

Well, I don't see the point in talking with a female, unless for the reasons of having a relationship. What's the point? Moreover, having a girl as your "friend" just complicates everything. There will always be some level of sexual tension in the relationship that I as an INTJ just don't want to deal with. And if you tell me there isn't any feelings there, then you're just denying yourself the truth.

Evolution (if you believe in it) has led us to interact with people of the opposite sex for really only one reason, which is sex. If you look at all the other species of animals in the world, you will find that male animals interact with mostly other males (like playful wrestling or something), while female animals interact with mostly other females and their children. The only time male and female come together is to mate.

see...that is just bs why the hell do people put such limitations on themselves...there are far too many interesting people in the world to limit your friends to those of the same sex...as mature adults can people honestly not be real friends with the opposite sex? come on...that's absurd.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Doesn't this thread look familiar?

This is why I hesitate to ever get involved with an ENFP again. As pleasant as I find their personalities at first, it's the same old dance.

 

[Lady_X]

Exactly, many men talk to a woman with the full intention of getting to know her so that he can have sex with her, or pursue her romantically. This could be just deceiving and just as much of a let down to a woman who only expects friendship as it is for some men to have a woman flirting without intentions of moving forward romantically. She may think, "Here I am, thinking that you actually want to be my friend, and the only reason you're listening to me is because you want to pursue a sexual relationship".

And further, once many men find out that a sexual relationship is not in the cards, they disappear, confirming for the woman--rightly or wrongly-- that he had no real interest in getting to know her in the first place.




This. I mean, so many things could be perceived as flirting.


This too. Just because a woman is deeply interested in you, doesn't mean she is deeply interested in you. With ENFPs, we're kinda interested in everyone. We want to know you, but that doesn't mean we want to commit to you, or have sex with you. It's best to ask us straight out where things are going before you assume you know our inner most feelings, which we often keep inside.

yeah! exactly it's like...oh...you don't really like me enough as a person to want to be my friend...you only pretended to because you thought we'd go out.

 

[Mr.Time]

In fact..one could argue you weren't upfront with her either. You didn't tell her that the only reason you talked to her, was coz you eventually wanted to bed her, and build a life with her. Why not? Coz it's self-evident *to you*. She sought friendship which is self evident *to her*, you sought a relationship. So can you really blame her for what she did, without being a hypocrite?

Nicely done...this is true...I assumed that the only reason she was talking to me was to see if I was worthy of her standards for the ultimate purpose of mating. I thought that she eventually found me worthy. That's where I made the mistake. However, I must point out that being social is a part of human nature (even for INTJs)...that's how we evolved. But, if you study chimpanzees or other apes, you will notice that they tend to socialize a lot, but with members of their own sex, not members of the opposite sex. When they do socialize with members of the opposite sex, it is for mating, not for socializing.

Humans have greater mental capacities and great amounts of knowledge compared to other apes. This has led us to foolishly believe that millions of years of evolution has made us creatures who can socialize with both males and females without developing sexual feelings. In fact, it is the opposite. If you look at the history of mankind, until about the last 50 years or so (particularly in the United States and western nations), men and women just weren't friends...they never really talked to each other as "friends". Why? Because the adults understood that when a boy and girl get together, they will develop unnecessary feelings, the ultimate purpose of which is to mate.

Believe what you want...but science is on my side. If I talk to a woman, its to develop a relationship, not for socializing...and I refuse to fool myself into thinking that men and women can be friends...millions of years of evolution stand against us.

 

[Moiety]

With ENFPs, we're kinda interested in everyone..

I see people throwing that kind of line left and right and I can't help but feel it smells a bit untrue, really. I don't see ENFPs making much of an effort to understand things that go directly against their Fi, that often. ENFPs shrug people off as mean or deluded or judgmental just as often as any other type.

 

[Amargith]

Because you aren't self-centered. You know there are other people around you that think slightly or even radically different. Because you aren't naive in other aspects and because this one deserves just as much attention. More so because you're a feeler and you care about others' feelings. And because you know exactly what kind of response being flirting is going to cause, and you can read between the lines.






Oh, missed this post. But yeah, you shouldn't. If all participants are up for it sure. If you have a clear conscience and you don't feel you are leading people on. But, hey, I'm not here trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm just saying that for every action there's a consequence, and that people should be honest with themselves first and foremost if they want to ignore all that.

But you mentionned that ENFPs need time to mature. The insight that not everyone interprets things like them takes time. At first, you realize that they don't react the way you would've, but you have no clue why or when this will differ. Things that come naturally to you, you don't even realize you should be questionning that others are different on this. And the same is true for other types btw. SJs don't understand why it is that someone would like to be chaotic. NTs cannot understand why anyone would not consider logic a priority or how you cannot be good at logic. NFs don't get that someone wouldn't be interested in people, at all, and wouldn't want to form connections, except for mating purposes. It's a journey we all take, to realize that others do not perceive things the way we do, and to discover how other *do* perceive them exactly

 

[Charmed Justice]

yeah! exactly it's like...oh...you don't really like me enough as a person to want to be my friend...you only pretended to because you thought we'd go out.

Right, and for EXXP types, it seems we put "friendship" in much higher regards than many other types. So to say you really don't want to be our friend unless we're putting out can be like a total slap in the face. I would be really hurt if my guy friends were like,"Sorry Pfer, you're married now, which means the likelihood of us ever having sex with you or marrying you just decreased to almost nill. What's the point in talking to you anymore chic? See ya when we see ya." I would have been devastated, and would have lost a lot of friends, seeing as so many of them are men. Glad I don't know any of these,"What's the point in being friends with a woman..." dudes.

 

[Mr.Time]

Also, I have to say that I did like the girl I met for who she was. I liked her personality and her interests. That's why I even talked to her. We had many things in common. However, my point in getting to know her was not to make a friend, but to have a relationship. Is that wrong? It seems sensible to me.

 

[Moiety]

But you mentionned that ENFPs need time to mature. The insight that not everyone interprets things like them takes time. Especially because it happens in steps. At first, you realize that they don't react the way you would've, but you have no clue why or when this will differ. Things that come naturally to you, you don't even realize you should be questionning that others are different on this. And the same is true for other types btw. SJs don't understand why it is that someone would like to be chaotic. NTs cannot understand why anyone would not consider logic a priority or how you cannot be good at logic. NFs don't get that someone wouldn't be interested in people, at all, and wouldn't want to form connections, except for mating purposes. It's a journey we all take

Of course it takes time. But constantly justifying your actions and seeing nothing wrong with them, and saying "well, it's the journey towards enlightenment" just smells like irresponsibility. It's like "poor me, I can't help being who I am, but surely I can't be blamed for that. I can only blame the mean TJs that judge people harshly and without feelings. Me? I'm on the path to something better. I'm not perfect. I can't be expected to be perfect. So I'll just keep doing what comes naturally to me."


Basically I don't understand the point in what you just said? What are you trying to say? That it takes time? I'm not saying it doesn't.

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Why talk to men? Neither you, Mr. Time nor I can successfully mate with them. Why talk to grandmothers or your best friend's girlfriend? Socializing is more than mating. If you argue evolutionarily, it is to derive a benefit or avoid a conflict between members of that society. You talk to your neighbor about putting up a fence regardless of whether your neighbor is male or female because it helps you. This may be a fairly recent development, but that is more due to the fact that women have power in society today not present in the past. May I also ask how old you are?

 

[Amargith]

^^*smiles*

It is, to INTJs. Since you guys don't really gain your strenght from other people. However..we're not like you
Our strenght is connecting with others. You use your Ni+Te outside of your job as well, don't you? You use it on people? Even though it's not the best tool to use for that? Coz that's who you are

What if we told you that it's immoral and evil to use Ni+Te in working with people, as they're not the best tools for that? What if we told you that your way of being is in fact wrong? What if we told you that we're going to tie your hand behind your back and you're not allowed to use what you're good at to achieve what you want?

That's what you're doing to us

And you can have expectations on how things should be between people, from your point of view till the cows come home, as an TJ tends to be, but FPs will never fulfill those expectations as being who we are and having the freedom to do so is just about sacred to us.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Well, Sy, your tune sure has changed from the last thread.

I'm all for people being who they are, but when an issue keeps coming up, it's only wise to look into it instead of automatically dismissing it.

 

[Mr.Time]

Why talk to men? Neither you, Mr. Time nor I can successfully mate with them. Why talk to grandmothers or your best friend's girlfriend? Socializing is more than mating. If you argue evolutionarily, it is to derive a benefit or avoid a conflict between members of that society. You talk to your neighbor about putting up a fence regardless of whether your neighbor is male or female because it helps you. This may be a fairly recent development, but that is more due to the fact that women have power in society today not present in the past. May I also ask how old you are?

I believe you're misunderstanding what I am saying. Evolution has made it that we have to socialize to survive. So we socialize with those of the same sex and people in our families. But when it comes to the aspect of socializing with people of the opposite sex outside of our families, its a different story. Why don't you pick up a book about the social behaviors of other mammals or other animals in general. They approach members of the opposite sex for really only one reason...to mate.

 

[Mr.Time]

Oh, I'm 21 years old...since you asked. And putting up fences is a different story...that is not about socializing but about doing something in order to show your territory...if you use your intuition, its really about survival. If I have to talk with women (lets say an insurance dealer), its something I must do, not about socializing or about mating. But it's just as likely that when speaking with her (as if one or both of us find each other attractive), then there will be some sort of sexual tension there. This is really the reason why mankind (for ages) has forbidden contact between men and women on a casual basis...its not about man having power over women, but to avoid these situations...why do you think that divorce rates and cheating rates are so high these days?