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  1. #71
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    I'm sorry you and this ENFP guy weren't on the same page, but isn't part of relating to someone occasionally being rejected(or finding out that we aren't compatible with them as a result of their personal style or motivations)? Does that make communication(or different types of it) inherently wrong? Did you talk to this ENFP guy and ask him what his deal was? I try not to assume that I know the inner workings of someone's mind, their motivations, or their needs(unless we are extremely intimate).
    You can read the whole INTJ/ENFP thread. I highly doubt it's ok to continue the flirting to validate your desirability even after you've already rejected me. Misleading and just not very nice. Jerk-face. Not you...the ENFP I was talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    You say he flirts with co-workers you are "sure" he is not attracted to. Ok. Many long-term relationships begin with flirting, and without a mutual attraction. Just because he is not attracted to them right now, doesn't mean that not one of them has a chance with him. It just depends on how each of them responds to him, and how he responds back. Flirting is, in and of itself, a negotiation and screening of interest. It seals no deal. It is simply the negotiation process.
    Um, yeah. This coworker already has a boyfriend. But this ENFP is very attractive and loves to see the women react to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Flirting is a basic instinct, part of human nature. This is not surprising: if we did not initiate contact and express interest in members of the opposite sex, we would not progress to reproduction, and the human species would become extinct.[/I]
    I'm not saying flirting is not a natural instinct when we're interested in someone and done in the right context. But as I pointed out before. When done to feed your own ego or validate your desirability, it's just plain wrong and potentially misleading and damaging.

  2. #72
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I think its just a miscommunication

    For enfp flirting = way to interract with people you might like him/her(as person) and way to get more out of this person

    For intj(and for me) flirting = way to show other person you do like him/her(romantically) and way to get more out of this person
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  3. #73
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    You can read the whole INTJ/ENFP thread. I highly doubt it's ok to continue the flirting to validate your desirability even after you've already rejected me. Misleading and just not very nice. Jerk-face. Not you...the ENFP I was talking about.
    Um, yeah. This coworker already has a boyfriend. But this ENFP is very attractive and loves to see the women react to him.


    I'm not saying flirting is not a natural instinct when we're interested in someone and done in the right context. But as I pointed out before. When done to feed your own ego or validate your desirability, it's just plain wrong and potentially misleading and damaging.
    K, so I just finished reading your old thread.

    It really sucks to feel that way, I know. But I must say, I think you may be making an error in assuming you know what he feels. ENFPs are Fi, and sometimes we don't actually let you in on what's really going on inside. When in doubt, ask. Who knows why he backed off, but it does neither of you any good to assume that you know his intentions.

    You are effectively creating a story in your head with him as the perp and you the victim. As such, you could be being very unfair to him without realizing it, just as you feel he was being unfair to you(and he may not realize it). This is all about communication, or lack there of. He could have very well be interested in you(at the time), and lost interest for some reason. The immature Fi may have compelled him to just back away, rather than come out with and explain how he felt. If you confronted him directly, he would likely explain to you his issue.

  4. #74
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    If you confronted him directly, he would likely explain to you his issue.
    No he wouldn't. He would give me some lame 'ol excuse and not be honest with me. ENFP is not going to tell me the truth if it's going to be hurtful. I cant put up with his BS anymore. I'm done with it.

    Maybe an ENTP and I would fare better.

  5. #75
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    No he wouldn't. He would give me some lame 'ol excuse and not be honest with me. ENFP is not going to tell me the truth if it's going to be hurtful. I cant put up with his BS anymore. I'm done with it.

    Maybe an ENTP and I would fare better.
    An ENTP guy I've known nearly 8 years just told me that he's been in love with me all this time. There is no guarantee with them either. And um, he got married to someone else before telling me this. It's just men, and women, and communicating. It's all mind boggling and confusing, but I try to take it all at face value and have fun with it and appreciate whatever positive role people have played in my life(even if I wanted more...or less).

  6. #76
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Don't agree here. What we say is but a small part of what we are truly saying, if that makes any sense. Our body language makes up the bulk of our communication. There is a clear difference between an antagonistic "fuck you" and a seductive one or a silly one. Yes, miscommunication occurs in flirting, like in all forms of communication. That's why, for the most part, people seek people who understand them and think like they do. In part, it is to avoid the drama of miscommunication and difference in communication style.
    I don't get what you are disagreeing with. Could you please clarify?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. I'm thinking you don't really have the ability to determine the motivations or degree of ethics and conscience in comparison to your own, of people you don't know and clearly don't understand.
    I'm merely exaggerating to illustrate my point. Since I base my reasons for not being flirty on ethics, empathy and "cause and effect".

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Being naturally flirty is no crime, and is biologically ingrained in the human psyche(apparently more so in some than others). It is language like all other language. Yes, it can be intentionally abused and misused, but being a "feeler" and highly "empathetic" doesn't make someone adverse to flirting. We never communicate with each other "just for the sake of it", and our lack of understanding of another's motivations or intent does not make us right and them wrong.
    Being human is all about fighting nature though. Some traits are inherent and biologically ingrained too. Like taking justice into your own hands and so forth.

    I haven't seen anyone say that they flirt with everybody they meet and everyone they know. Who are these people?
    People have admitted to doing it very often and ENFPs are known for liking to interact with pretty much everyone on some level.

    I mean that we, as husband and wife, find it appealing and seductive when we see that others still see us as highly attractive sexual beings by flirting with us. I fully embrace my sexuality, and my sexuality is a part of who I am.
    So do you think others flirt with you because you are a highly attractive sexual being? Is that the same reason why you flirt with people? Do you flirt with people you don't find sexually attractive?





    For me, I get insecure when I don't feel like I'm contributing to the world as I could be. I have had moments like that, and trust me, flirting is not something I do in those times. I highly doubt depressed people flirt. Flirting is playfulness, and playfulness is typically a sign of emotional health.
    Don't agree. I've known compulsive flirters who were not happy people at all.

    So you're saying, you wouldn't want to be with someone unless they only viewed you as a person who is always right-at least, in the moral sense? Part of being in a life long relationship, from my understanding, is negotiation of standards, values, and morality. It is indeed, one of the hardest parts. There will be times when your spouse/LT partner believes you've done something wrong(with the kids, financially, in your spiritual quest, whatever), and you don't agree. Are you saying, you would leave a marriage or LT relationship when that occurs? Unconditional love frees us to be vulnerable, make mistakes, and still know that we are just as equally loved and cared for, and wont be abandoned. No human views another human as perfect, in the long term, so why wouldn't you want to be unconditionally loved by someone(fully accepted as someone who will make mistakes)?
    Conditional love does not mean there is no room for mistakes. If someone you were happened to hide the fact he was a serial murderer though, your opinion of that person would be bound to change somewhat. The love you had for that person wasn't unconditional. This is an extreme example, but I'm merely using it to illustrate the point. I want to be loved for my flaws, but not unconditionally. If I cheated on my SO I wouldn't expect her to just forgive me. There are conditions to a relationship. It's something inherent to relationships in fact.

  7. #77
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Hmmm, yes I do like to believe in unconditional love. But then I start to think why would I want to be loved unconditionally if I've done nothing wrong and plan on doing nothing wrong? And if something I've done, which I don't think is wrong, is regarded as such by someone I'm with...why would I want to be with that person in the first place?

    Not questions directed at you...just brainstorming.
    i follow you here. and i understand what you mean i think. you are saying your are perfect in your own way, and if someone perceives you as being flawed, that is their own shortcoming and doesn't have anything to do with you. since love is such a complex Thing, it is difficult to discuss, and probably shouldn't be at great length here because this is about flirting. but, since i think it's important, and it appears others do too, i will just say that this explanation from wikipedia regarding unconditional love best represents how i feel about it:

    Professor Mario Beauregard, from Montreal University's centre for research into neurophysiology and cognition, used MRI to study active areas of the brain of people, who were most likely to experience unconditional love. Subjects were asked to call to mind feelings of unconditional love. Researches saw 7 active areas in the brain. Three of those areas were similar to regions in the brain that became active when it came to romantic love. The other four were different, which means that the feeling of love for someone without the need of being rewarded is different from the feeling of romantic love.
    In his study professor Beauregard found that some brain areas that turned on when a person felt unconditional love also engaged in discharging dopamine, chemical that plays a role in sensing pleasure. [1]
    so, unconditional love for me is about how i love. others might reap the benefit of being the recipient of unconditional love, but, i believe, the goal of it should be simply because it feels good for the giver. and i'm sure as perfect as you are, and we all are in our own ways, we will and do fuck up. no matter what happens regarding negotiations and boundaries and agreements (even if we get divorced or our kids become killers), i'm sure we prefer to know that we have people in our lives that love us regardless.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    An ENTP guy I've known nearly 8 years just told me that he's been in love with me all this time. There is no guarantee with them either. And um, he got married to someone else before telling me this. It's just men, and women, and communicating. It's all mind boggling and confusing, but I try to take it all at face value and have fun with it and appreciate whatever positive role people have played in my life(even if I wanted more...or less).
    wowza! that's crazy. i feel compelled to ask--do you like him too? i'm curious to know how you found out about his feelings. how did he tell you this? facebook? haha.
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  8. #78
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hey Scientist, I sympathize with you. I didn't read your whole thread, but I get the gist of what happened and how you feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    No he wouldn't. He would give me some lame 'ol excuse and not be honest with me. ENFP is not going to tell me the truth if it's going to be hurtful.
    Correction, a weak-willed ENFP will avoid telling you the truth when you ask for it and are entitled to it. If being deceitful and dishonest because the truth makes you uncomfortable or because you are straight up manipulative, oh hell no, I'm turning in my ENFP card!

    An ENFP who has ironed out their personal code of ethics and decided to step up for the greater good will tell the truth when you want it and sometimes when you don't want it.

    Some Fi doms suck at telling the truth. Or sometimes unbridled Fi will keep an Fi from telling the truth when they should.

    For no other reason than it makes them uncomfortable and they are afraid of your reaction/how things will change once they let it out. Sometimes it's just this gut/instinctive fear or hesitation.

    No one deserves being jerked around and I personally can't fucking stand liars. Liars are either cowards or selfish or both.

    I mean, there are SO many ways to tell the truth, to articulate something (and in theory ENFPs are supposed to excel in this!) I mean, you can still BS and embellish and soften and obfuscate and imply and tell the truth. So with all those option to still lie?

    I cant put up with his BS anymore. I'm done with it.
    Good for you. Down with the tyranny of bs!

    Again, sorry, haven't read the whole story, but will you be sending him an email explaining exactly how you feel with specific examples of bs or confronting him directly? I do agree with EnfPer that the best conclusions to draw will be on direct information from him.

    Also, this is not to let someone off the hook for misleading you - but in what ways did you allow yourself to be mislead? Did you see and hear what you wanted to?

    You have already said you directly confronted/asked him what was going on? Which is exactly what you should do if you are unclear about someone's intent or you yourself have intentions.

    I think though, if you try a few times to get to the bottom of things or to let someone know your boundaries and expectations - if things still don't change you should walk away.

    Confront and walk away much sooner next time. Don't let things linger when there is a lack of clarity.

    Maybe an ENTP and I would fare better.
    Oh helllllll no. On this I will agree with my fellow ENFPS - if you want accountability and clarity (in regards to "flirting" et. al.) you are not moving up with an ENTP (just check the 'ENTP Sex' thread).

    I don't think it's a bad idea for you for right now at least to take flirting as total bs and just not engage with anyone you think is trying to flrit with you. Until you at least sort out better the POV and intent of the people who are trying to flirt with you. A polite smile, a nod, that's all you need to acknowledge it and move on.

    Not all people who flirt with you are desperate attention whores who need to get their egos stroked.

    But, assuming that they are is probably better for you right now than to go along with it.
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  9. #79
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    wowza! that's crazy. i feel compelled to ask--do you like him too? i'm curious to know how you found out about his feelings. how did he tell you this? facebook? haha.
    I know. It's crazy! I don't like him, although I did then but never let myself fall for him. I didn't know it was so deep for him though. He just kinda came out with it, asking me if he could talk to me....And yes, Facebook is the devil.

  10. #80
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I mean, there are SO many ways to tell the truth, to articulate something (and in theory ENFPs are supposed to excel in this!) I mean, you can still BS and embellish and soften and obfuscate and imply and tell the truth. So with all those option to still lie?
    I equivalate BS with lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Also, this is not to let someone off the hook for misleading you - but in what ways did you allow yourself to be mislead? Did you see and hear what you wanted to?
    Probably the biggest mistake I did was overlook the fact that on one of our dates, I used the word 'date' and he said "dont use that word. it's too serious". So I asked, then what is it? And he said "we're just having fun". However, he continued to ask me out and flirt and make out. Then he gradually stopped contact with me, never asked me out again, however, CONTINUED to flirt with me at work and kiss me at work.

    He no longer kisses me, but continues to flirt, and it's pretty aggressive flirting. I'm just angry at myself for allowing it, and for being a stupid hopeful, and for giving in to all of his flirtations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You have already said you directly confronted/asked him what was going on? Which is exactly what you should do if you are unclear about someone's intent or you yourself have intentions.
    No, I have not confronted him. If you read from pages 13 and on, you will see my reason for it. i debate it in my head all the time, but the consensus seems to not confront at this point. If you have anything to add you can post over there. I've gotten mixed suggestions.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Not all people who flirt with you are desperate attention whores who need to get their egos stroked.
    I realize this as I do NOT flirt for self-validation or to get reactions out of others.

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