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  1. #21
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Yeah. I hate when that happens.

    I worked with an ISFJ once and she would get these "hunches".
    I would be like, "Where in the world did you get that idea from?!"
    Yet over and over again, it would turn out she was right.

    I figured out that her S function was taking in all these facts and details and storing them for future use.
    And then somehow, she would get a "hunch" that would just pop up out of nowhere
    that was actually based on facts she might have taken in 5 or 10 years ago!
    Incredible!
    That wasn't just your polite way of saying that you think I don't have any intuition was it? I don't know why, but over the last few days I have been getting the impression that people have been attacking my instincts (not so much on this forum). Meh, probably just a bout of my paranoia.

    That does bring up a good question though. Intuition is instinctual knowing without a rational process. A sensor could be fooled into believing that their hunches are intuition, rather than drawn conclusions from patterns perceived through an excellent memory. How would you one go about recognizing an intuitive person from an astute and suspicious sensor? Could an external observer really draw that conclusion?

  2. #22
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    So the Ni is making invisible connections based on iNtuitive information, I guess?
    Yes, that's how I see it. My STJ husband and I will arrive at a similar conclusion but we'll get there via very different connections.

    As for trusting / not trusting that 'hunch' or 'gut feeling' - time and experience help with that a great deal. I used to let only me know when I had a gut feeling about something, because I wasn't sure, or lacked self confidence. I am still wrong, of course, but I'm more likely to know it beforehand now, and still share the information with a few people.

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  3. #23
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    How would you one go about recognizing an intuitive person from an astute and suspicious sensor? Could an external observer really draw that conclusion?
    This is how it goes in my family / household (I am surrounded by Sensors, two are Ts and one is an F, all are Js).

    I ask questions. A lot of them. Another intuitive sees this for what it is, trying to understand the whole of the issue. My sensing family thinks I am questioning them because I doubt them. When I ask a question there usually isn't a judgement attached to it, when my Sensing family hears my question they assuming there is a judgement attached to it.

    SJ husband: We're almost out of soup (he likes instant cup of soups)
    Me: Did you see the boxes I put in the pantry? (he suffers from "can't see what's infront of me" - or "everything is outside of my line of sight" - and he'll freely admit that to anyone)
    Me: They were the chicken ones, I bought two days ago. Did you find those.
    SJ husband: Why don't you go look if you don't believe me?

    I'm trying to assertain that he really did eat 6 boxes of soup in two days, he thinks I'm calling him an idiot.

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  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    When someone is telling me something, as I listen, I am reconciling the information with information I already have in my head.
    When something doesn't make sense to me, it's because it doesn't "add up" with what I already know to be true...
    Yes, I have that happen a great deal.

    Usually I just 'flag it' and intuit a few of the most likely reasons that it is not making sense and meanwhile allow them to continue talking, matching up what they are continuing to say with the potential scenarios I've thought of to see if any of them are panning out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That wasn't just your polite way of saying that you think I don't have any intuition was it?
    Certainly not!! Why I hardly know you, and generally speaking I think INFJs are wonderful people.
    What I meant was that it happens to me too, and I don't like it.
    And then I gave an example of how someone can have a "hunch" which is seemingly based on nothing, yet if you traced it out, it actually is based on true fact.
    Instead of "facts" my intuitions or theories tend to be based on principles of life.

    I don't know why, but over the last few days I have been getting the impression that people have been attacking my instincts (not so much on this forum). Meh, probably just a bout of my paranoia.
    Well, either way I'm sorry you have been feeling that way. I know it's uncomfortable.

    That does bring up a good question though. Intuition is instinctual knowing without a rational process.
    Hmm... Is that what they say? That's not fair for people to call our instincts non-rational. Mine are rational to me!

    A sensor could be fooled into believing that their hunches are intuition, rather than drawn conclusions from patterns perceived through an excellent memory. How would you one go about recognizing an intuitive person from an astute and suspicious sensor? Could an external observer really draw that conclusion?
    The short answer, I guess, is yes, since I was an external observer who figured out the difference. I first figured out that she was an SJ, and then that she was a super-feeler.

    I guess the hunches at first did seem sort of picked out of thin air with no supporting information, so in that way they seemed to be dangerous assumptions - from my perspective - dangerous in that they seemed to have no basis in fact and common sense was not a factor because we were doing historical research. I personally don't like when people jump to conclusions.

    When I would question her about her "hunch" she was not always able to immediately support her theory, but 99% of the time, as we continued down the path her hunch brought us down, I would learn her hunch was in fact based on solid evidence she had gleaned sometimes many years before. I was almost jealous of her incredible memory that could absorb that much information! I learned to trust her hunches because she was almost always right!

  6. #26
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, I have that happen a great deal.

    Usually I just 'flag it' and intuit a few of the most likely reasons that it is not making sense and meanwhile allow them to continue talking, matching up what they are continuing to say with the potential scenarios I've thought of to see if any of them are panning out.
    Now that you mention it, I think I do it that way also, but sometimes, I can't get past it, probably when I am being asked to be judge and jury, and expected to respond in some significant way.

  7. #27
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    This is how it goes in my family / household (I am surrounded by Sensors, two are Ts and one is an F, all are Js).

    I ask questions. A lot of them. Another intuitive sees this for what it is, trying to understand the whole of the issue. My sensing family thinks I am questioning them because I doubt them. When I ask a question there usually isn't a judgement attached to it, when my Sensing family hears my question they assuming there is a judgement attached to it.

    SJ husband: We're almost out of soup (he likes instant cup of soups)
    Me: Did you see the boxes I put in the pantry? (he suffers from "can't see what's infront of me" - or "everything is outside of my line of sight" - and he'll freely admit that to anyone)
    Me: They were the chicken ones, I bought two days ago. Did you find those.
    SJ husband: Why don't you go look if you don't believe me?

    I'm trying to assertain that he really did eat 6 boxes of soup in two days, he thinks I'm calling him an idiot.
    tee-hee
    We have similar "discussions" in our family.

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Now that you mention it, I think I do it that way also, but sometimes, I can't get past it, probably when I am being asked to be judge and jury, and expected to respond in some significant way.
    Well, what's a mom to do? (In that sense, children force parents to develop their intuitive skills to SOME degree.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    only bites when provoked
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    I think Ni is how I make crazy, yet almost invariably correct, intuitive leaps. I believe this coupled with Te is how I see through things, too. I'm knows for this mysterious ability to see into black boxes, tell people how they work (correctly), and tell people that have intimate knowledge of their inner workings what's wrong inside of them. It's some kind of pattern-matching/forming system - everything has a pattern and it's just a matter of finding it.

    "Do you see the method that handles X?" ... "There's a problem in the loop there that manipulates Y.", "I see it", "Now, move it to Z.", "Done", "It'll work right now. Thanks."

    Don't ask me how this works, it's magic. It's like how I solve problems or select from a group of solutions, only that I can usually come up with many rational reasons one is better than the others. If an INTP totally trusts you, they'll follow your choices from their list of well-thought-out ideas/solutions, even if you're really just giving assorted reasons why one is better than another and the only reason you advocate one is because it just stands out as the best to you, so you actually manipulated the values of different positives/negatives to get the choice accepted. It's not perfectly rational - it's magic. Some kind of highly flexible pattern matching coupled with an ability to approach from seemingly-random angles, which coupled with my Te allows me to distill them down to the best solution. I can also originate ideas, but then I might have realized in retrospect that I missed some possibilities that would have been better, so I either re-implement something right or leave it for later if it's sufficient and doesn't decrease the result quality of future choices.

    It also allows me to see outcomes of choices/actions, even if they're vague, because certain ones are better than others. It probably makes us the best strategy game players (ex: chess) and is the reason we optimize high-payoff strategies for every game (ex: scrabble, poker). We do everything based on intuitive payoff values, so our route is controlled by these payoff value choices.

    I expect that one of the weirder/scarier things to an SJs would be watching an INTJ and INFJ that are really close discussing things that are totally illegal and immoral. The INTJ will totally ignore morality and support the INFJ's most evil fantasies, coming up with ways to do them, telling them the best way to do it, get away with it, etc. One of those powerful teams that could be for good or evil mattering on how the wind blows. (Like INTJs and INTPs, except it'll usually be for some positive purpose, but that purpose could theoretically be anything.) I'll just say that some conversations I've had with the most loving INFJs, particularly out of the context of the relationship, would probably scare most people.

    The noise in my head when I'm going to sleep is very weird. I can have "conversations" with virtual patterns of people. Sometimes I'll have online chats with people in these twilight dreams.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  10. #30
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    That evil stuff you have an INTJ and INFJ talking about goes on in my head when ever I get struck with a "problem" to solve. I may not actually want to do it, but the ideas would still come as if I were totally going to do it. I scare myself sometimes...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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