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  1. #81
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, I hate to be the monkey-wrench, but I do this all the time too. imo, however, it does not provide evidence of being Ni - Fe. It's a behaviour. Behaviours can be attributed to multiple cause.

    I type IEI in socionics too. But I am not an INFJ. I think the most definitive thing that helped me figure out the difference between the two types was the concept of J vs P. After all, I was caught up in the same trap you and @brainheart are falling into, namely that Fe is all about being nice to others and that Fi doms don't accommodate the preferences of other people. This is simplistic and not universal in any way.

    So, let's look at J vs P. This is an excerpt from a page on Vicky-Jo's site, infjorinfp.com. There's a variety of stuff on that site, some of which I think it good, some is bupkis, but this I think hits enough of the mark on the communication preferences of INFJ vs INFP. See where you fall after reading this MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT:
    You seem to be under the impression that I made this decision flippantly, based on some minor behavioral difference. I assure you that wasn't the case. I've read a lot and done a lot of research.

    Part of how I reached that conclusion was the J vs P difference, actually- or what Jung terms rational vs irrational. Introverted intuition is an irrational (or perceiving) function. His explanation of the introverted irrational types fit me far more than the introverted rational types, which is what Fi is.

    Basically this is a theoretical disagreement. MBTI categorizes INFJs by their auxiliary function vs their dominant function. That strikes me as a really dumb way to do things. It's like saying an INFJ is more Fe than Ni. For this reason, honestly, I think many INFJs are probably actually ENFJs. I think Vicky Jo is quite likely one of them.

    I find it interesting that you mention behaviors and then list behaviors Vicky Jo states are the difference between the two types. The behavioral focus of MBTI and cognitive functions is what turned me away from it in the first place and on to enneagram. I am far more interested in my motivations, which is more of the enneagram emphasis. MBTI always struck me as a little shallow and trivial. But then I read Psychological Types and I realized it's just that MBTI is stupid, not the original text of Jung's.

    I admit that I'm not completely sold on Fe being my auxiliary function. I think it's entirely possible that I use Ni-Fi, or that my auxiliary shifts between Fi and Fe depending on the circumstance. More than anything I'm an introverted intuitive feeler. But I do suspect that I am a Fe auxiliary, and I think it explains something quite well about myself that I haven't been able to put a finger on with my former typing of fi-ne.

    To answer your question- I do both directing and informing. It depends on the situation and the context. I find Vicky Jo's way of determining type to be extremely flawed because it is a laundry list of behaviors and that means nothing to me. I'm looking for the gestalt. Laundry lists strikes me as arbitrary. My favorite sources as far as all of this goes have been Jung Psychological Types, Lenore Thomson Personality Type, and Naomi Quenk Was That Really Me?

  2. #82
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    You seem to be under the impression that I made this decision flippantly, based on some minor behavioral difference. I assure you that wasn't the case. I've read a lot and done a lot of research.

    Part of how I reached that conclusion was the J vs P difference, actually- or what Jung terms rational vs irrational. Introverted intuition is an irrational (or perceiving) function. His explanation of the introverted irrational types fit me far more than the introverted rational types, which is what Fi is.

    Basically this is a theoretical disagreement. MBTI categorizes INFJs by their auxiliary function vs their dominant function. That strikes me as a really dumb way to do things. It's like saying an INFJ is more Fe than Ni. For this reason, honestly, I think many INFJs are probably actually ENFJs. I think Vicky Jo is quite likely one of them.

    I find it interesting that you mention behaviors and then list behaviors Vicky Jo states are the difference between the two types. The behavioral focus of MBTI and cognitive functions is what turned me away from it in the first place and on to enneagram. I am far more interested in my motivations, which is more of the enneagram emphasis. MBTI always struck me as a little shallow and trivial. But then I read Psychological Types and I realized it's just that MBTI is stupid, not the original text of Jung's.

    I admit that I'm not completely sold on Fe being my auxiliary function. I think it's entirely possible that I use Ni-Fi, or that my auxiliary shifts between Fi and Fe depending on the circumstance. More than anything I'm an introverted intuitive feeler. But I do suspect that I am a Fe auxiliary, and I think it explains something quite well about myself that I haven't been able to put a finger on with my former typing of fi-ne.

    To answer your question- I do both directing and informing. It depends on the situation and the context. I find Vicky Jo's way of determining type to be extremely flawed because it is a laundry list of behaviors and that means nothing to me. I'm looking for the gestalt. Laundry lists strikes me as arbitrary.
    I completely agree on the bolded. I don't have the normal type Fe at all because I'm much more Ni-Ti. That changes Fe into a whole new bird. People just ignore Ni in the descriptions leaving all the Fe folks described as similar. A lot of inspiring social causes could just as easily be done by ESFJ, ISFJ, or ENFJ, and possibly moreso than an actual INFJ.

    Edit: I've been thinking that it can be helpful to identify IN types based on their concrete connection to reality. An INFP is going to have a more Si-Te connection while the INFJ will have a more Ti-Se connection. These are very different. Since it is difficult for some to identify what is going on abstractly within a person, look at how they connect to the outside world. INFJs can have an unexpected earthiness and problem solving, and I completely see it in myself as I live in the forest and improvise solutions around the house. My INFP sister is a visual artist at heart, but in her search to figure out how to make a living she started into library science which I think would feel comfortable to a Si-Te processing. She wasn't quite able to connect with it, but the attraction was there.

    Does the INF have a secret internal Scully (Si-Te) or MaGuyver (Ti-Se)?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #83
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    I'm rarely offended. I'm not that type of sensitive. My irl infp friend however is easily offended and will defend principles that make no sense or have no point (IMO). I'll get offended if someone is doing something like hurting other people, and that's not right so I'll be offended by the act and the implications thereof. If anything I would probably offend everyone irl if I didn't take care with my words. I can be dreadfully brutal honest. But then I feel bad if the other person feels bad so it's a balance.

    I either talk too much or not at all. Infp experience is that they're too sheepish to ever be at that, 'talk too much' state. Or at least about things that might spur disharmony however they're the first to stand up to be different for the sake of being different. Which is irritating because I see value in being capable of 'fitting in'.

    So I think infp tends to be more free bird and infj or at least myself, might seem more rigid by comparison, even though I think I'm an open minded person. I also don't think Infp's question their emotions as an infj might. Actually, the way they question things appears all together different than the way I do or other infj types I've known to be infj.
    There'd be no method if there were no madness ...

  4. #84
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post

    Edit: I've been thinking that it can be helpful to identify IN types based on their concrete connection to reality. An INFP is going to have a more Si-Te connection while the INFJ will have a more Ti-Se connection. These are very different. Since it is difficult for some to identify what is going on abstractly within a person, look at how they connect to the outside world. INFJs can have an unexpected earthiness and problem solving, and I completely see it in myself as I live in the forest and improvise solutions around the house. My INFP sister is a visual artist at heart, but in her search to figure out how to make a living she started into library science which I think would feel comfortable to a Si-Te processing. She wasn't quite able to connect with it, but the attraction was there.

    Does the INF have a secret internal Scully (Si-Te) or MaGuyver (Ti-Se)?
    You might be on to something with this. I can be very hands on and practical (Ti-Se). I'm the one in the house who does the repairs, the wall painting, etc. I've reshingled a roof. I often enjoy to do manual labor and as a kid thought it would be cool to be a carpenter. I love to figure out how to fix things but definitely not by the book, more in a MacGuyver sort of way. I recently just reupholstered cushions for a friend's camper. I loved figuring out the best way to do it, with no instructions to guide me. These are the sort of jobs I do to make money (and so I don't have to get a 9 to 5 job). They aren't totally 'me', but I can do them, and enjoy them.

    EDIT: I should add one of the major things I noticed that helped me to determine Ni over Fi was that Jung focuses on the role of the inferior function. I could very much see myself in his explanation of Ni under the influence of inferior Se, and not in Fi under the influence of inferior Te.

  5. #85
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    Guys, I was just mentioning one minor aspect of the difference between Fe and Fi. I didn't mean to imply that one small behavioral characteristic was grounds for determining between types or Fe and Fi.

    Nor did I mean to suggest that INFPs are stubborn and unable to change their opinions or that INFJs are too eager to please and are therefore super wishy-washy...or vice versa.

    Just a minor point. A minor characteristic I read about and happened to have noticed in myself.

    I'm also going to echo what @brainheart said. My decision to reevaluate my cognitive functions is not based on one or two behavioral characteristics I might possess, nor is it something I'm just doing on a whim. I'm reevaluating this because of what is going on inside my brain and how it processes information and perceives the world. This is a serious process for me and has involved hours and hours of studying the eight functions. It's based on A LOT of reading on Ni and Ne and realizing I may have been very wrong initially about which I was using.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I can be very hands on and practical (Ti-Se)...I often enjoy to do manual labor and as a kid thought it would be cool to be a carpenter. I love to figure out how to fix things but definitely not by the book, more in a MacGuyver sort of way. I recently just reupholstered cushions for a friend's camper. I loved figuring out the best way to do it, with no instructions to guide me. These are the sort of jobs I do to make money (and so I don't have to get a 9 to 5 job). They aren't totally 'me', but I can do them, and enjoy them.
    Ditto, although my ISFP wife is JUST as handy as me, if not more! I'm no MacGuyver, and would probably relate better to Scully lol, but since I was a kid I've loved taking things apart, fixing them and rebuilding them. I still enjoy tinkering with small electronics. As I said, my wife is quite handy but usually leaves electronics repair for me, probably because she knows I love it so much (even though she'd probably be better at it).

    Don't really know if this indicates Ti-Se-- just an observation of my own behavior, habits, interests.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by NKC View Post
    I'm rarely offended. I'm not that type of sensitive. My irl infp friend however is easily offended and will defend principles that make no sense or have no point (IMO). I'll get offended if someone is doing something like hurting other people, and that's not right so I'll be offended by the act and the implications thereof. If anything I would probably offend everyone irl if I didn't take care with my words. I can be dreadfully brutal honest. But then I feel bad if the other person feels bad so it's a balance.

    I either talk too much or not at all. Infp experience is that they're too sheepish to ever be at that, 'talk too much' state. Or at least about things that might spur disharmony however they're the first to stand up to be different for the sake of being different. Which is irritating because I see value in being capable of 'fitting in'.

    So I think infp tends to be more free bird and infj or at least myself, might seem more rigid by comparison, even though I think I'm an open minded person. I also don't think Infp's question their emotions as an infj might. Actually, the way they question things appears all together different than the way I do or other infj types I've known to be infj.
    I don't get offended unless someone makes things very personal, or as you said, they are hurting others. Only my closest friends and family are really capable of this. If someone disagrees with my principles, I'm more wont to keeping my mouth shut, or politely disagreeing and then looking for common ground.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    You seem to be under the impression that I made this decision flippantly, based on some minor behavioral difference. I assure you that wasn't the case. I've read a lot and done a lot of research.

    Part of how I reached that conclusion was the J vs P difference, actually- or what Jung terms rational vs irrational. Introverted intuition is an irrational (or perceiving) function. His explanation of the introverted irrational types fit me far more than the introverted rational types, which is what Fi is.

    Basically this is a theoretical disagreement. MBTI categorizes INFJs by their auxiliary function vs their dominant function. That strikes me as a really dumb way to do things. It's like saying an INFJ is more Fe than Ni. For this reason, honestly, I think many INFJs are probably actually ENFJs. I think Vicky Jo is quite likely one of them.

    I find it interesting that you mention behaviors and then list behaviors Vicky Jo states are the difference between the two types. The behavioral focus of MBTI and cognitive functions is what turned me away from it in the first place and on to enneagram. I am far more interested in my motivations, which is more of the enneagram emphasis. MBTI always struck me as a little shallow and trivial. But then I read Psychological Types and I realized it's just that MBTI is stupid, not the original text of Jung's.

    I admit that I'm not completely sold on Fe being my auxiliary function. I think it's entirely possible that I use Ni-Fi, or that my auxiliary shifts between Fi and Fe depending on the circumstance. More than anything I'm an introverted intuitive feeler. But I do suspect that I am a Fe auxiliary, and I think it explains something quite well about myself that I haven't been able to put a finger on with my former typing of fi-ne.

    To answer your question- I do both directing and informing. It depends on the situation and the context. I find Vicky Jo's way of determining type to be extremely flawed because it is a laundry list of behaviors and that means nothing to me. I'm looking for the gestalt. Laundry lists strikes me as arbitrary. My favorite sources as far as all of this goes have been Jung Psychological Types, Lenore Thomson Personality Type, and Naomi Quenk Was That Really Me?
    I hadn't really questioned Vicky Jo's type, but she is quite bubbly and could pass for an ENFJ. It's also possible she's just had a lot of practice and experience interacting with people and developing that outward, energetic image.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I hadn't really questioned Vicky Jo's type, but she is quite bubbly and could pass for an ENFJ. It's also possible she's just had a lot of practice and experience interacting with people and developing that outward, energetic image.
    Not sure who you're referring to but it could also be her enng or life experience. I generally have people assume I'm an extrovert because I'm so NOT shy to talk with that 'mask' of me on. In other words, I play the politician fairly well in person :p it's exhausting though!! I also had my parents move me to several schools as a child so I guess I got accustomed to not getting to know people and having to put on that 'social' face to keep from being picked on. It could be a thousand things. Even MBTI and ENNG can't discount a persons environment and experiences that influence their personality.
    There'd be no method if there were no madness ...

  10. #90
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    I think the differences between infj and infp are pretty obvious once you get to know the person. Fi and Fe present entirely different. Not to mention the detached manner of NiTi thinking. I'm older and see how I differed in different periods of my life but I've always been an infj when it comes to the way I've thought and interacted with others. I must admit that I find myself in a state of guilt next to an infp. Their idealism is so unrealistic and I find myself being judgmental which I hate. It irritates me the way they think and draw conclusions and I'm not sure where to begin to explain that. I get along with them and totally adore them. But there's this part of them that drives me bonkers like they're a kid who needs to grow up. I always feel like I'm the parent in the dynamic and I suppose it's feeling like I have to pick up their slack. Their choices are often based on intense feelings opposed to actual intuition and they're hurt all the time by situations they put themselves in but they don't take responsibility for the fact they wouldn't be hurt if they weren't there in the first place or with that person in the first place. But they were because of how they felt. It's like I love infp but they drive me bonkers all at the same time!! Lol!!!

    I realize I've probably made several enemies just now. They'll smile to my face but internally will be plotting my demise. Another thing that drives me bonkers. That Fi hiding how they truly feel. How do I trust that? Passive aggressive nightmares. If I had to say one thing it's please! For the love of god! Just be pissed outwardly so you can get over it and move on! It's like being selfish with your awesomeness because those traits totally push people away.

    NOT SAYING ALL INFP's are like this !!!!!
    There'd be no method if there were no madness ...

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