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Thread: Any INFJ girls?

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    I think im going to quit kids. I can't keep pretending like i am not being affected by her ignoring me, whether it's because of her disorder or not.

    I think two weeks of silence is demonstrating quite a bit of patience on my part and a total lack of respect for me on her part. Disorder or no. I'm so frusterated and confused right now... i hate this crap.
    Hey, don't agonize over it. It's not a big deal.

    Concerning her: If this is the way that she typically handles her relationships, then very likely there's nothing you can do for her, good or bad. Maybe it's a personality disorder and it's making her as miserable as it has made you; or maybe she's an idealist (or even just spoiled) and she's got it in her head that it's acceptable to shop around for an ideal relationship and bail out on any relationship that falls short of the ideal.

    If she has been repeating this pattern, then the only thing that's going to wise her up will be time. She'll increasingly notice her friends settling down into LTRs and getting married, she'll notice she's spending more and more time alone, and she'll start thinking back and wondering if missed out on a good guy or two along the way. Then something will click, and she'll start making the changes she needs to make in her life. If that includes seeing a shrink, then so be it.

    But those sorts of changes are out of your hands. They have nothing to do with you. They come from inside, and they're prompted more by the passage of time than by anything a guy might say or do to her. So don't worry about what you might have done differently or what you might do to help her in the future. When you see her next, just wish her well. Frankly, you don't have as much influence over others as you may think. It's awfully hard to "fix" people when they themselves don't see the need to be fixed.

    Concerning you: Don't take relationships so personally. Everyone comes with their own emotional baggage, and all you can do is hope that you two have a matching set of luggage.

    Sometimes you can make a difference when you or the other person is ready to make a life change. For example, when you met this latest girl you were at point where you were dissatisfied with passing liaisons and wanted to build something more long-term. So you're willing to negotiate, undertake some changes in yourself, and consider new ways of relating to girls. But your girlfriend is still solidly set in her avoidant ways and not open to change in the way that she does things. And there's nothing you can do about her and her emotional baggage. In her case, something needs to change inside first. So you accept that it's out of your hands and you move on. You find another girl--one who is like you and looking for a change in the way she does relationships, or one who is already in the mindset of building and negotiating relationships for the long-term.

    Realize that for most people these days, it takes a few times to get it right. First people have to get past the dating/experimentation mode and start desiring to build something long-term. They have to desire it enough to work at it and make the necessary changes in themselves. And even once they've reached that point, they may still need to crash and burn a few more times in the future. IOW, even at that point they may be repeatedly seeking flawed relationships and it may take a few times before they finally see the mistake they're making and be willing to undertake the next stage of changes in themselves. You mentioned a couple times that your girlfriend was fragile and damaged by past relationships and that you even considered her fragility a source of attraction. It may take you a couple burns to realize that the fragile ones may not be the best choices for you. It may take a couple crashes before you realize that you can't fix other people; at best you can only learn to live with their baggage too. IOW, you may still have some more changes to make in yourself before you really find a good relationship.

    Concerning me: Take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm an INFP, and I'm into self-improvement; according to my set of values it's an acceptable trade-off to lose a relationship but in return gain some insight into myself. So I might be more cavalier about ending a relationship than others.

    Still, in my experience love tends to work pretty much the same for most people. It's like learning to ride a bike: You have to crash and burn a few times before you get it right.

    Young people tend to go into relationships with a lot of unrealistic feel-good expectations, and it may take a couple times before they're willing to lower their expectations and make some needed changes in their own attitude toward others, IOW to mature a bit. And even after they're willing to work harder at their relationships, they may still have to crash a couple times in order to confront some truths about themselves and take a hard look at what kinds of partners they attract or are attracted to.

    So I say: Look at relationships as a process. Don't over-invest on the first one (or the second or third one) so that you won't feel overly distraught when the investment goes down the tubes. Keep it light.

    Also, don't kill yourself trying to turn a bad relationship into a good one. You can't fix other people. So focus on your own attitude and stay positive in order to give the relationship a good environment for success (i.e., don't release your frustrations into the relationship and turn the relationship into your private toxic dumping ground). If you can stay positive and your partner responds and seems to be trying to meet you halfway, then work with her. If she isn't, then move on.

    Finally, when you think you've found a good relationship, remember that people make promises they can't keep. So be generous--both toward your partner and toward yourself. For example, my current wife has repeatedly promised across the years to be a better housekeeper, but the house is still a shambles (and she won't let me or anyone else clean the stuff up because it's her art stuff and she wants to control how and where it's kept). Her intentions are good, but she's probably not going to deliver. So it's up to me to choose to quit worrying about it, give her a pass on it, and enjoy all the other good things she brings to the marriage. Also, it's a nice bargaining chip when I find I can't deliver on everything that I myself promised her at the start of the relationship.

    With time, I think the problem goes away. With time, she gets a little better with the cleaning; and with time we both cease to really care about it anymore anyway. And I think indulging either factor contributes toward improvement in the other factor.

    Anyway, I think lessons like these are more useful than any number of noble principles like promising to love someone no matter how much they abuse your trust and goodwill. (I'm not much into noble principles these days.)

    The lessons again: Be realistic and lower your expectations about what constitutes a relationship and learn to negotiate and jury-rig an arrangement that works for you instead of shopping around for a ready-made ideal relationship. Instead of trying to "fix" people who are locked in destructive patterns, fix yourself by putting your own best foot forward and then look for someone who responds to that and is willing to work with you and meet you halfway. And when you find a working relationship, be generous--there will be things that both of you promise but can't deliver. Don't beat yourself or each other up over them. Show a little generosity and then let time work its magic.

    And if a relationship doesn't work, be generous about that too. No use thinking ill of each other or yourself. Both of you both probably tried your best. The failure probably means that you both still have some things to learn and some changes ahead of you yet before you get it right. It usually takes a few times to get it right. So just take it as a learning experience.

  2. #132
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Frankly, you don't have as much influence over others as you may think. It's awfully hard to "fix" people when they themselves don't see the need to be fixed.
    Instead of trying to "fix" people who are locked in destructive patterns, fix yourself by putting your own best foot forward and then look for someone who responds to that and is willing to work with you and meet you halfway. And when you find a working relationship, be generous--there will be things that both of you promise but can't deliver. Don't beat yourself or each other up over them. Show a little generosity and then let time work its magic.
    Yay Fineline!! I can resonate with nearly everything you wrote. I especially agree with the messages above. Good words of wisdom, I think.

    Jake, sorry things didn't work out. As Fineline said, all relationships can be used as learning experiences and opportunities for self-growth, but in the meantime, it's perfectly ok and normal to just be feeling glum about all of it. Just try not to beat yourself up too much!

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    I think im going to quit kids. I can't keep pretending like i am not being affected by her ignoring me, whether it's because of her disorder or not.
    I am sorry to hear that this has affected you so deeply. I would caution you against concluding she has any type of disorder unless it has been diagnosed by a professional. It is not a direct violation in this anonymous context, but discussing that irl could be considered slander. Just a word of caution. It can make it easier to have a sense of resolution if we can place the entire problem on the other person as being in some way not entirely functional. But that can also remove any sense of personal responsibility. You are the only one who knows the true nature of the exchange, and therefore you are the only one who can figure out how to best learn from it. I would encourage you to use it as a learning experience to understand yourself better.

    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    I think two weeks of silence is demonstrating quite a bit of patience on my part and a total lack of respect for me on her part. Disorder or no. I'm so frusterated and confused right now... i hate this crap.
    findthejake, I am guessing from your picture, personality, and overall charisma that you have many personal advantages to easily find someone else. Of course your feelings are running so deep right now, that you may need time before you can really see that. As much as this may hurt to hear, no matter how much we adore someone, we are not ever entitled to have them return that affection unless there is a commitment or contract between people that does entitled us such as parental responsibilities, marriage contracts, etc.. Can you respect her as an entire person with possibly valid reasons for her choices even if she does not reciprocate your affection? This is an important question and a difficult one, but it is like holding up a mirror to our deepest part. It can teach us the most important lessons about our own self.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #134
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    If someone is more work than they are fun.. then I agree it's time to move on. Especially when there's no strings attached.
    Forming characters! Whose? Our own or others? Both. And in that momentous fact lies the peril and responsibility of our existence. - Elihu Burritt

    Member of the Maverick's Biker Club - Now crashing through walls instead of just..walking into them.

  5. #135

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    I had to see her at a bar last night, we both ended up at the same place to console a mutual friend. She basically tried to hide and avoid me as much as possible. We did talk a little but when I got home I realized that there is no way I can do this and it finally snapped snapped in my brain. Like I knew I couldn't before but I didn't really get it.
    So I got a bit mean on a voicemail, said that my pain ended this weekend and that meant I was getting my stuff. That I wanted it either friday night or saturday and if I didn't get it then I was going to start showing up randomly, which I knew would scare her enough that she'd make sure I got it.

    So while I am excited for closure, I am really bummed that it didn't work out. A 2 year crush, burned in a month. Brutal.

  6. #136
    Senior Member xNFJiminy's Avatar
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    People with APD can get more afraid the longer they know someone, because people's expectations of who you are get more specific and harder to fulfill as the relationship progresses. They find it harder and harder to be themselves and more and more stressful to present themselves the way they think best secures against rejection, until being around that person is intolerable. This can eventually mean no friendships at all, as they're not worth the extreme anxiety.

    Heck I'm on the virge of flashbacks...

    I don't know if this is your friend, but she doesn't sound like someone you should pin your hopes on curing. The cure (the only one I know of) comes from personal insight and understanding of the original cause and phobic process, combined with tailor-made behavioural techniques, which IME most people don't have enough of to fix themselves.

  7. #137
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    So I got a bit mean on a voicemail, said that my pain ended this weekend and that meant I was getting my stuff. That I wanted it either friday night or saturday and if I didn't get it then I was going to start showing up randomly, which I knew would scare her enough that she'd make sure I got it.
    What do you mean "scare her"? Do you mean she would be worried about being bothered or somewhat threatened?

    I'm guessing you are larger and stronger than she is - is that correct? That you could be legitimately threatening to her? Even if she did things wrong, I hope you have the backbone to be the bigger man. This means treating her with a baseline level of human respect regardless of her fault or how she has hurt you.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #138
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    ...I found out tonight that I am the FOURTH guy she has done this to in the past two years or so. That everything seems to be rolling along awesomely and then she just shuts down and cuts them off completely without explanation. So while that makes me feel a bit better knowing it's not me, I can't help but hurt for her. She lives in a dark place and I know now that I can't save her from it but I do hope that she'll find her way and that she'll let me be there as a friend.

    I am not religious anymore but it's people like her that I always felt like Jesus would have loved the most. Sorry, random thought...
    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    Avoidant Personality Disorder.

    That's the answer. She has it. Probably doesn't even know she has it but everything matches, including INFJ's being most susceptible to it. But even outside of typology, everything she has told me and everything she has done is right in line with this disorder.
    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    ...So yeah, I have no experience in the dating game other than watching other people and most of her experience was dealing with an asshole boyfriend that she was too scared to get rid of...
    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    ...So I got a bit mean on a voicemail, said that my pain ended this weekend and that meant I was getting my stuff. That I wanted it either friday night or saturday and if I didn't get it then I was going to start showing up randomly, which I knew would scare her enough that she'd make sure I got it...
    You believe she has a disorder and then you chose to scare/intimidate her? You also know she has a history of an ass-hole boyfriend whom she was afraid of, and you choose to use the same tactics? Wow jake. Wow.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #139
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    o.O I think you're mis interpreting there. I think he meant "scare her" as in she's obviously avoiding him, so him showing up randomly would make her uncomfortable. Nothing more. And he pretty much all but said it was an empty threat.. just to make sure he got his stuff and move on.
    Forming characters! Whose? Our own or others? Both. And in that momentous fact lies the peril and responsibility of our existence. - Elihu Burritt

    Member of the Maverick's Biker Club - Now crashing through walls instead of just..walking into them.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    You believe she has a disorder and then you chose to scare/intimidate her? You also know she has a history of an ass-hole boyfriend whom she was afraid of, and you choose to use the same tactics? Wow jake. Wow.
    That might be a bit harsh for Jake. I can understand that his concern in getting his stuff back, coupled with his emotions and disappointment in her attitude, brought him to act this way.

    On the other hand, Jake, I would like to say you sound really like a great and fun guy to be around. You take risks, go for it and are passionate. Your behavior will be scary for most women, except those who are very secure, not risk-averse and need this to feel "alive".

    Remember there are many men out there who act like this to get women in their bed. Women are taught to be wary of them. Also, acting too eager makes women doubt your ability to be a stable partner and they might worry that once the passion wears off you'll go for another girl. Coupled with existing insecurities and emotional baggage, you have a recipe for disaster.

    Maybe, as someone suggested, you need tougher women that will need your spark for them to start being alive emotionally.

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