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[ENFP] INTJ trying to understand an ENFP's actions

thescientist

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Well, I'm not sure I have much more to say about this.

I will think about it though. :hug:

It's okay...you can be honest, I wont be offended ...I'm psycho right? :unsure:

Or are you not saying anything because you've behaved similarly? :nono:

Thanks for the hug though...I'll admit, male ENFP's are good at giving those.

:boohoo:

Sorry, posted this before I saw your other post.
 

thescientist

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- The ENFP may simply be acting as his charming self, not acknowledging how the other party perceives this behavior.
Perhaps...but I can definitely sense when it's intentional.

- Perhaps a personal explanation will permit him to understand how you truly feel. He might believe you weren't as serious as you currently are.
After so much time has passed. I think he's pretty clear, cutting off contact no more emails in the morning, no more special attention, no more walking me to my car...blah blah blah. What am I supposed to do, go up to him and tell him that I'm okay being friends? He's going to wonder...isnt that what we are??
- Did he verbally state he was interested? If not, he could have assume the interaction was a non-committal flirt session.
Asking me out on dates, continuously complimenting me, making out etc...I dont know if it was non-committal or not...he obviously wanted to get to know me beyond just work. If he knew it was non-committal from the start, then why lead me on at all...?

It's like he just tried to ease out of it all. Man up and just tell me a-hole!

Oh and stop using me to make your day go by faster at work! Yeah I said it!

I'm sure I'll look back at this thread another day and think to myself that I just went mad!
 

thescientist

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Edit: Following three posts presuppose that he does not wish to pursue a relationship with you, which is my hunch, but it appears others do not think so.

A wise idea to tell him exactly how you feel. He is not going to come out and tell you, but if you explain yourself, I think he might give you something satisfactory. He may be trying to turn you off/away from him because he does not want you, and he may be insensitive because he feels you do not require the sensitivity that another might, which is probably true, but not to the extent that he apparently believes. He wants to be clear with his intentions, but he doesn't have the spine to do so, and so he reverts to childish and simple tactics which may be more hurtful or confusing than the mature alternative. But his animosity is not directed to hurt- don't make that mistake. If I were you, I would be straight up with him and focus more on his undertones leading you to believe that he is harboring somewhat malicious feelings than on the fact that things are awkard. He already knows things are awkward.

I must say that I am not surprised by his initial behavior, though, and that he may have moved on quickly for the simple reason that he has GGS (Grass is Greener Syndrome) and the situation involves no fault of yours. He wouldn't stop dating you because you offended him unless you did so consistently, which I doubt. He is probably behaving this way now because your presences peeves him, peeves him because he feels the necessity to distance himself from you but is unwilling to do so through calm, rational explanation, thus pitting his consciousness against his own weakness that he would rather not acknowledge, and he is deflecting this truth by blaming you for your thickness and inability to get the hint.

Sorry we have GGS, this probably will not be your last time to experience this kind of unfairness.

I was looking back and reading through the whole thread and I couldn't agree more with this post now.....

hindsight is 20/20. it is so clear now.
 

Lethe

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I agree with this completely.

I honestly don't think I can add anything to this.

Very good insights again, Lethe. :yes:

I think I'm finally getting.... 3% of what's going-on in the ENFP male's mind. :tongue:

================

Perhaps...but I can definitely sense when it's intentional.

Our perceptions, however clear to us, may not necessarily resonate with others'. This is where interpersonal communication becomes tricky and explicit clarifications are required. While actions do speak volumes about an individual, it's the specific context that completes the entire picture.

Just be vigilant about relying too heavily on intuition, at the expense of reality.

After so much time has passed. I think he's pretty clear, cutting off contact no more emails in the morning, no more special attention, no more walking me to my car...blah blah blah. What am I supposed to do, go up to him and tell him that I'm okay being friends? He's going to wonder...isnt that what we are??

Asking me out on dates, continuously complimenting me, making out etc...I dont know if it was non-committal or not...he obviously wanted to get to know me beyond just work. If he knew it was non-committal from the start, then why lead me on at all...?

It's very likely that he hasn't gotten the perspective of someone who's more reserved in their social activities. The ENFP may not even know how much trouble he's causing.

Given the circumstance Into-it's post is accurate, I see two solutions:

Solution # 1: Show him kindness. (Be warned he'll start detecting for insincerity in the case of insufficient mutual trust.) Rather than indulge in a blame-game session, turn it into a problem-solving, personal development one. When he's not faced with reprimands of his conscience, it will be easier for him to come clean.... and finally do something about it! Armed with the right ammunition, many people can change. The question for the said person is where to find it. Suggest tips or brainstorm together to discover safe GGS outlets. He may thank-you afterward for understanding and allowing him learn why things ended up poorly. (If you're making any progress, you could ask him how, ideally, someone in your position should respond to his mistakes and explain why they'll feel frustration. The ultimate intent here is to learn.)

Solution # 2: Drop him cold turkey if he refuses to compromise or communicate. You now have a solid reason for disappointment and leaving permanently. The worse you'll receive is the opportunity to move forward to greener pastures yourself, and to drop this sod back in the waste-bin where he belongs. ;) Only keep a strict professional contact with him when interactions are unavoidable.

I'm sure I'll look back at this thread another day and think to myself that I just went mad!

Being around ENFPS will do that to you. I take it as a good sign. :laugh: When you look back, hopefully you'll gain astute insight and tactics for skillful maneuvering past these obstacles.

There's more strategies I have on understanding and dealing with the ENFP male, but I should get back to work. :) Tomorrow, then.
 

Amargith

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I'm sorry to hear this :hug:

I personally would stay warm to him when in fact encountering him, but not seeking him out anymore and going about your day. There's nothing worse than losing attention...especially if you're used to it and seek it out. Detach. That way you can actually stop going mad over him and maybe even turn the tables on him in the process, though that would be a bonusfeature at this point :devil:

Take comfort in the fact that not all of us will be stupid enough to let you slip through our fingers. He doesn't know what he's missing out on ;)
 

Kalach

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I think I may have had a similar situation last year with a younger ENFP. It's not nice. Work meant I had to see her at least once a week in groups of other people. Wasn't fun.

When this guy pops his head up later like nothing happened... ah... um... no, actually I don't know what you do. I didn't handle it well. I was expecting to be met half way, but wasn't, got overbearing, turned up the angry alienating noise, started dictating... Didn't go well. Glad it now doesn't have a chance to reignite.

Find someone else, I'd say. An actual friend. Someone who's friendly and nice and supports you. A girlfriend maybe. Not dating material. Chill out and get cool with yourself again. So that when you say "Fuck it, I'm not doing this anymore" you can actually mean it because the feeling's done with.



(Sorry if that sounds harsh, ENFPs. What else does a person do when they're left on their own to sort out their own feelings?)
 

invaderzim

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I don't know if its too late but you should confront him about the way he is treating you. In my opinion, he sounds like a weak and spineless man. The way he handled the entire situation was completely wrong. He needs to acknowledge his behavior and the way he treated you. I don't feel like this is your problem but if you don't speak up you're showing him that what he is doing is acceptable.

Honestly, I think you should be rude back. If he's standing near your desk talking about his various flirtations you could have said "please talk about your personal business else where because you're annoying me" and when he man-sasses you a simple "excuse me, do you have a personal problem with me?" would do.

He is obviously aware of how awkward the situation is for you and is still being inconsisderate. If I were you, I wouldn't force my self to act differently from my true emotions because he's not changing to accomadate you.
Simplest way to get someone to back down is just to mirror their behavior. If he can dish it out, he can eat it as well.
 

thescientist

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Thanks to everyone for your words of encouragement.

I feel so much better today. I was feeling like an insecure fool yesterday. He's made me feel like that plenty of times.

Today I went on about my day as usual. Not looking his way when he obviously tries to attract attention. He tried to joke around and instigate me. And I was non-chalant about it. Not bitter or upset. Just casual and friendly, but not flirtatious.

There was a bit of sarcastic banter, but nothing too harsh. I think my previous sarcastic attempts were harsh because i was feeling bitter and angry inside at his mixed signals.

He's just extremely immature. That's all I have to say.
 

thescientist

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=== Epiphany! ===

O..M..G.. I've just reached an epiphany about this ENFP and the whole situation.

A came across an ENFP's blog and he posted about flirtation. I will quote the key pieces. I'm sure this was obvious to many, but this has just made my day.

It was only in my early thirties, when I underwent my spiritual conversion, that I became willing to rethink my own flirtatiousness. Doing a written inventory of my romantic and sexual history, I realized that from 13 to 31 I had devoted a colossal amount of time and energy to flirting. The goal was rarely sex — the goal was validation of my own desirability. I was a first-rate narcissist, always eager to “stir the pot” to see if I could arouse a spark of interest in the various women I met in my life. It never mattered if I was single or attached, and I didn’t much care if these women were available or not. My ego needed feeding, and flirting was the best damn way I knew to get it fed. If the “intriguing” led to a short-term relationship or brief encounter, so much the better — but that was just icing on the cake. The “cake” in these instances was the knowledge that I was wanted. And knowing that I was desirable was the ultimate payoff.

Flirtation, particularly when we are married or in committed relationship, brings us dangerously close to one of the most pernicious sins of all. No, I don’t mean adultery. I mean the sin of using another human being to soothe our own anxiety, to feed our ravenous ego. Sending out “mixed messages” that arouse interest, deliberately fishing about to see if we can get a little “stroking” — this is toxic, manipulative, adolescent. I did it for nearly twenty years. It took several years more of hard work to break myself of the habit. Even now, I remain vigilant, knowing that it would be false pride to claim that I am forevermore immune from the temptation to soothe myself this way.

Do you realize what this means? The whole time he was just using me to validate himself and his desirability. He continues the flirtation just to get a reaction out of me at work to feed his ego.

Which MEANS, the problem was never me at all. It was his own insecurities!!!!

"Plan Ignore" has been in full effect since Tuesday and it feels mighty powerful to not feed someone's ego. He text me at 12am the first day the plan was in effect. Needless to say I didn't respond. And he immediately asked me why I didn't reply to his text the next day I saw him at work.

Thanks to those who followed me along the path of understanding the ENFP. I finally feel some closure to this all.

If you're interested in reading the full blog post you can find it here:
A long post about flirtation, validation, and conversion at Hugo Schwyzer
 

Lethe

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Do you realize what this means? The whole time he was just using me to validate himself and his desirability. He continues the flirtation just to get a reaction out of me at work to feed his ego.

Which MEANS, the problem was never me at all. It was his own insecurities!!!!

I had a major haunch this entire 'hot & cold' deal was the ENFP's issue, but I couldn't pin it down on what. That's why I suggested to help him, if you have any energy left.

O..M..G.. I've just reached an epiphany about this ENFP and the whole situation.

"Plan Ignore" has been in full effect since Tuesday and it feels mighty powerful to not feed someone's ego. He text me at 12am the first day the plan was in effect. Needless to say I didn't respond. And he immediately asked me why I didn't reply to his text the next day I saw him at work.

Thanks to those who followed me along the path of understanding the ENFP. I finally feel some closure to this all.

Epiphanies are amazing, huh? ;) Hopefully, this ENFP won't blacken your experience with the rest. :)

(*PS: I used to be an active reader of Hugo's blog. He suffered from a narcissistic personality disorder, though the aforementioned description is not beyond an insecure ENFP's potential.)
 

thescientist

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Epiphanies are amazing, huh? ;) Hopefully, this ENFP won't blacken your experience with the rest. :)
No, not at all, however, I will be much more cautious when approached by one and question their intentions thoroughly.

(*PS: I used to be an active reader of Hugo's blog. He suffered from a narcissistic personality disorder, though the aforementioned description is not beyond an insecure ENFP's potential.)
Thanks for the note. It still most definitely applies to this ENFP.
 

Kalach

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Are you going to be able to forgive him at some point?

Not as in let him get away with it, just as in... in.... I dunno, what does an INTJ do when they forgive? Let him be the idiot he wants to be just with no more access to your life?

I agree, him pulling a kiss and run is low. Thus he's an ass with his own set of whatever's coming to him down the line.


So... I dunno. How does one look after one's own feelings?
 

Into It

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I'm INTJ...I have no feelings right?

:yes:

I mean-:huh:

Wait, was that a trick question?

1. - The ENFP may simply be acting as his charming self, not acknowledging how the other party perceives this behavior.

2. - Perhaps a personal explanation will permit him to understand how you truly feel. He might believe you weren't as serious as you currently are.\

- Did he verbally state he was interested? If not, he could have assume the interaction was a non-committal flirt session.

If you ever decide to speak with him, clarifying your position and gently asking for his is one method of ironing the tension.

I'm answering posts a little out of order and out of date, but order is exasperating, and it can't be expected of me.

1. So he would have you believe. If ever you see an ENFP unaware of how his words are being received, look again. Perhaps if he had not known you to have any feelings for him, past or present, this could be the case. But it is not so, and his words are calculated accordingly.

2. As to whether he may not know just how strongly you feel, this is probably true in my opinion. But he's not totally clueless - not about this at least. You're a pragmatic person, what's the favorable outcome of you explaining yourself like this? At best, he would make attempts not to be flirty, which is apparently against his nature. I see why you're talking to us instead. If he saw this thread, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I'm sure he would feel great knowing that you've been putting in time to ask netbuddies questions about him for the past couple of weeks, Yoda knows I would, but you will get out of this situation more cleanly if you use the back door.
 

Into It

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I dunno, what does an INTJ do when they forgive? Let him be the idiot he wants to be just with no more access to your life?

It's a good question in general. What does one do when one forgives? The offended party just tells the wrongdoer that the wrong he has doed is somehow less wrong, or at least stirs up less emotion at this point. Formulaically, it looks to me like the warm, fuzzy feeling one gets when he is apologized to (you and Scientist can ask me what warm, fuzzy feelings are like later, it's a whole 'nother topic) is sold to him for the price of the pain that the offender has caused him, or put another way, the apology is owed by the wrongdoer for the debt he has acquired through forcing the payment of pain from the offended party. It is usually an unfair trade, so why is it made? First of all, the illusion of the equality of return/payment comes from the added bonuses of self-righteousness and superiority that come with the territory of telling someone "I'll let you feel less bad about what you should feel bad about." On top of that, there are always the facts that what is done can not be undone and that there are advantages to creating or sustaining a positive relationship. In light of this, I wonder if one can be forgiven for what he has not apologized for or is even sorry about. Furthermore, if one is forgiven for something he is not sorry about, what would be the advantage or purpose of it?

This post I just made reminds me of a Kalach post I read a few minutes ago where she squarely phrases a tangential though somewhat relevant question and follows it up by saying, "My J is tingling." If you wrote a post like this, Kalach, your J would get frostbite.
 

Kalach

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In light of this, I wonder if one can be forgiven for what he has not apologized for or is even sorry about. Furthermore, if one is forgiven for something he is not sorry about, what would be the advantage or purpose of it?

OIC, you are unfamiliar with just how unfamiliar INTJs are with forgiveness. This one is, in any case. I asked the question how does an INTJ forgive because it felt like such a strange question to formulate. I forget a lot of things, but I'm not sure it's that easy to forgive, certainly not forgiving before change has taken place. The peril of approaching the world with a judgment function and an unfamiliar set of feelings, I guess.

The forgiveness in question isn't actually granted to the other person. No, it's to be granted by Scientist to herself. I imagine it's the equivalent of letting oneself feel sad and agreeing that the sadness can in time pass.


It's either that or spread rumors he's gay.
 

the state i am in

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i'm very interested in this situation. as an infj i would feel far less defiant and more ashamed for being tossed around. Ni just takes shit like this way too seriously way too easy. it starts seeing all these connections with other situations and, as an infj, i would place my own feelings within the imaginings of others in horrible situations akin to how i think i feel.

i can see how your method with Te would be more focused on what you need to do. but i don't think you have to turn it into an Ni sense of how this works, a finalized story, a single truth. you know that he is acting like a fucking prick, a petulant child, etc. that he seemed to be interested and then he totally withdrew. but i don't get any sense that there is any basis for assuming a specific reason or assigning a specific story. if you're going to learn from this, let it lie and see if you pick up more information, or, in a more intj Te way, go fucking find out. if approached directly and he acts like a bigger prick, it's not that he's not only not worth the time of day, it's that he's a fucking child who is obviously full of shit. those people exist. if you approach him directly and he can't handle it, maybe it will, in the long run, make him look himself in the mirror.

the worst case scenario of feeling like you were duped is not the worst thing in the world. you can move on from that. there are other ways of dealing with problems than finding a single story that rids you of your negative feelings. sometimes i don't know, but i'm ok with that is better than letting Ni get polluted with future fears and projections.

obviously all easier said than done.


The forgiveness in question isn't actually granted to the other person. No, it's to be granted by Scientist to herself. I imagine it's the equivalent of letting oneself feel sad and agreeing that the sadness can in time pass.


It's either that or spread rumors he's gay.

:D

you should get a talk show where you council people with their problems. or become a psychiatrist.
 

Uytuun

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No, not at all, however, I will be much more cautious when approached by one and question their intentions thoroughly.


Thanks for the note. It still most definitely applies to this ENFP.

Told you so!

;)
 

Lethe

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1. So he would have you believe. If ever you see an ENFP unaware of how his words are being received, look again. Perhaps if he had not known you to have any feelings for him, past or present, this could be the case. But it is not so, and his words are calculated accordingly.

2. As to whether he may not know just how strongly you feel, this is probably true in my opinion. But he's not totally clueless - not about this at least. You're a pragmatic person, what's the favorable outcome of you explaining yourself like this? At best, he would make attempts not to be flirty, which is apparently against his nature. I see why you're talking to us instead. If he saw this thread, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I'm sure he would feel great knowing that you've been putting in time to ask netbuddies questions about him for the past couple of weeks, Yoda knows I would, but you will get out of this situation more cleanly if you use the back door.

Into -

What has been highlighted here are the limitations of a third-party advice and a one-sided explanation. Human error (particularly when the mind's agitated) combined with missing data taints the reality one perceives. As good intentioned an individual may be, it is both faulty and presumptuous to assume too much about the other party's reasoning without their commentaries, or unbiased evidence. (There's an agreement with the_state_i_am_in.) For example, if a culturally diverse audience is asked to analyze a silent film, how many interpretations will exactly align with someone else's? Anything beyond a description of the character's actions is merely theoretical.

Working with these limitations, I aimed to address the possibilities, while I cautiously refrained forming an attachment to either. This is where a third-party (online) contribution is restrained: they have not experienced the circumstances themselves. What if a key factor was overlooked by the speaker? Knowing someone has a history of mental illnesses, economic troubles, etc., per se, could tamper the entire situation and I left an open door for such a case.

I anticipate situational clarity, personal development and lasting improvement in every applicable department. The said ENFP's input would be highly valuable: it could shine light upon my own ignorance or emphasize what I did correctly. This information holds the power to modify the weak links in my future investigations concerning similar elements. Only the ENFP himself knows precisely why he choose to act the way he did, and even a simplistic answer will reveal his subconscious core desires (ex: craving external validation to compensate for internal emptiness). It furthermore gives me a worthier substance than his superficial behavior (re: being a prick) and excuses (re: "self-righteousness and superiority") to base my decisions on.

My top strategy rarely changes unless I am faced with drastic consequences. Because I desire consistently similar or better results, I will keep switching tactics until they are met. It implies that I may utilize a compassionate, yet longer, approach one day and a shorter, impersonal method another. Therefore, all these choices are reliant on the environment and the accessible facts; one new fact changes the next few advances. Sometimes the back door is the ideal or the worst. Just play the choices by ear.

- L

==================================================


I asked the question how does an INTJ forgive because it felt like such a strange question to formulate. I forget a lot of things, but I'm not sure it's that easy to forgive, certainly not forgiving before change has taken place. The peril of approaching the world with a judgment function and an unfamiliar set of feelings, I guess.

The forgiveness in question isn't actually granted to the other person. No, it's to be granted by Scientist to herself. I imagine it's the equivalent of letting oneself feel sad and agreeing that the sadness can in time pass.

<Disclaimer: IMO>

Personally, I have adopted an "I live for tomorrow; yesterday can screw itself" policy. There's nothing that leaves a nasty taste like suddenly moving backwards from unpleasant memories. Instead I use my deepest sorrows to move forwards by establishing small approachable goals for myself that will inspire a fulfilling victory (and heal the wounds). Yes, it will hurt, it will be unfamiliar, it will frighten and it will seduce me to take the easiest way out. But I have a decision -- to let these feelings consume my mind or remain firm to my principles (productivity, integrity & making sound, fair judgments). If these emotions are painful enough for me to seriously consider the former, then it is a clear indication that I am pushed to my limits. Healing would now have a greater importance. Consequently, I would temporarily resign from those negative influences because my ability to function has been conceded. I'll come back as soon as I am able to reasonably maintain myself.

I forgive quickly, though it is not a main focus, because changing how I 'surfacely' feel doesn't alter what has happened or the underlying root causes. I'd turn off the emotional noise as much as possible, to focus on how I can constructively regain what I have lost -- a peace of mind, self-control, etc. You're absolutely right that forgiveness is something to be granted by oneself. Jumping to forgiveness before you're ready only adds a burden to your discomfort and potentially, others.

Taking action towards a compromise is what gives me the most satisfaction. I'm comforted knowing my skills are being put to use and my principles aren't being dissuaded by frivolous feelings. So it's important that everyone find their own method of healing since they have their personal set of priorities, emotional triggers, and values. There's no such thing as one 'right' method. And it's good theScientist has already uncovered hers.
 

thescientist

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Told you so!

;)
haha...indeed you did! This particular ENFP is just extremely immature. Remember how I said he immediately asked me why I didnt text him? Later at work a buddy of his didn't respond to his text mssg and he said in a loud voice (most likely so I could overhear him) "he's not responding to my messages, so I wont respond to his. I can play that game too."

I just wanted to stand up and tell him to his face that he should live by his own standards because he has ignored many of MY text messages!!! Urgh!

Therefore, all these choices are reliant on the environment and the accessible facts; one new fact changes the next few advances. Sometimes the back door is the ideal or the worst. Just play the choices by ear.
I work the same way...

Personally, I have adopted an "I live for tomorrow; yesterday can screw itself" policy.
:yes:

It's either that or spread rumors he's gay.
I like how you think my friend... :devil:

Are you going to be able to forgive him at some point?

Not as in let him get away with it, just as in... in.... I dunno, what does an INTJ do when they forgive? Let him be the idiot he wants to be just with no more access to your life?
This is a tough one. I don't think I've forgiven yet. I usually directly confront the situation and that's how I'm able to achieve forgiveness or at least closure, whether I receive an apology or not. I don't hold grudges. I'm able to move on pretty quickly...although seeing him everyday at work might make that a little harder.

I'm still debating whether to have a talk with him or not. I fear that having a talk with him will only validate him further because he will realize how much I really liked him. I'm also afraid of other consequences, like creating further tension at work OR him not recognizing anything wrong about his actions OR him thinking I'm some psycho chick.

I would love to tell him the true reasons why he flirts are just to validate himself and to feed his ego...that it's completely unhealthy and potentially hurtful to others if taken too far. This to me would be the ideal closure, but there are a lot of risks involved so I'm not sure if it's the best choice. I'll assess that as time passes. Like Lethe said...play it by ear.

Before having any conversation with him, though, I'd like to torture him for a bit by not feeding his ego. :D
 

Kalach

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INTJ
Taking action towards a compromise is what gives me the most satisfaction. I'm comforted knowing my skills are being put to use and my principles aren't being dissuaded by frivolous feelings. So it's important that everyone find their own method of healing since they have their personal set of priorities, emotional triggers, and values. There's no such thing as one 'right' method.

I believe I agree with everything you said, quoted and unquoted. My vibe on this whole story is the ENFP is not wanting to cooperate with whatever plan comes up next. My impression--nay, assumption based on brief descriptions--is he has the flighty butterfly, my feelings reign supreme thing going. Reminds me of a guy I know, and a girl I had an unfortunate crush on. In similar circumstances there's not much I would feel I could do if the other parties weren't similarly coming to the table for discussion and cooperation. So, probably I'd be admitting that they have their reasons, and that puts them out of my loop, so what do I do for myself?

This is either giving in to tertiary temptation or appropriate commitment to sitting with legitimate Fi for a time. Not sure which.

And it's good theScientist has already uncovered hers.

She's outing him? I approve. He fits the profile of a closet denier.
 
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