[ENFP] INTJ trying to understand an ENFP's actions

[the state i am in]

The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.

perfect explanation. unchecked stressed Fi becomes a justification for Ni to see the worst and draw the worst links/connections.

 

[Economica]

there can be a slippery and seductive slope in dealing with NFs where the ideal amount of balance and compromise is "the point where the NF is happy and petted", because NTs dont make as big of a deal about their emotional needs so they end up getting sidelined.

you totally disagree with this, economica?

What's a Ti user doing in this thread? :hi:

No, I don't totally disagree with everything Wind-up Rex wrote. In fact I didn't even read it all before I posted as I was headed out the door. But I did totally disagree with her call to action:

I think you should let it ride, or find an ENTP who is basically the same thing except you wont have to debase yourself every time you engage in a little friendly banter.

 

[Amargith]

What's a Ti user doing in this thread? :hi:

You're surprised by this? They tend to be suspicious/paranoid of Fi

 

[ZiL]

Interesting thread. I'm dating an ENFP (first thought he was ENTJ, then ENTP, now I'm settled on ENFP), and the behavior you're describing isn't totally unfamiliar to me in tone. It can be especially disconcerting to me because we perceive so similarly (Ne) and have such a similar way of joking and communicating on the surface, but we react emotionally in very different ways. I've gotten the "silent treatment" feeling from him before, but when I confront him about it he tells me that making me feel cut-off would never be his intention. So my conclusion is, he just reacts to things more strongly than I do, and there's no need to be too alarmed by it, it's best just to talk to him about it, figure out what's bothering him, and if it has to do with you, explain your position. He usually comes around immediately. But it can feel to me like I have to do a lot of accommodating and walking on egg-shells at times. I don't enjoy that feeling, but I don't think he intends to make me feel that way. I'm just trying to understand it, since it's such an alien way of being to my natural sensibilities.

I do sometimes feel with my ENFP that there is some need to exhibit masculinity as well, and blows against that are not taken happily. Which is kind of annoying because I'm similar to you - I'm a female NT, and I like to make fun sarcastic remarks out of playfulness. It's my natural style, I can't do anything about it, and I get especially bad if I feel like someone's trying to put up a macho front. Based on how he acts in general with the outside world, it can be really surprising to see how easily he can get his feelings hurt.

 

[Blackwater]

You're surprised by this? They tend to be suspicious/paranoid of Fi

quizzical is more like it, but at least i'm glad its not the other way around

 

[PeaceBaby]

For instance, today I jokingly said something along the lines of "so I heard you were the LVP of the volley ball team, least valuable player". Then he bites back with an even more sarcastic and rude comment. But his sarcasm felt real ...

Disclaimer: I have not read this whole thread, only this original post.

I read this and said "Ouch" in my mind. If you sense distance between you and any NF, sarcastic or derogatory banter is not the way to close the gap.

 

[violet_crown]

I'm going to have to go ahead and assume that the best sensitive person doesn't regard their sensitivity as a liability, but a skill. And I'm going to have to make that assumption because otherwise you have a world where INTJs are supposed to look after ENFP sensitivity.

Presumably too one has to say the best blunt truth teller isn't one who find themselves constantly breaking down the people around him, but building them up. Otherwise you have a world where ENFPs have to remind INTJs of what the real truths are.

And in fact in the best possible world INTJs do look after ENFP sensitivity and ENFPs do remind INTJs of what are the deeper truths. But neither can really do that to perfection without getting their own shit together first.

Thus, it's a risk, but Scientist should be calling this guy out and asking WTF, and if she does, she is giving him the benefit of an assumption of maturity--that this guy is capable of being proud of what he is, and is able to speak the words. This may be a little difficult for him now, what with time having passed and some obvious mistakes having been made. And Scientist too is going to have to assume for herself some maturity too--that sometimes being harsh is more a protective move than truth-seeking. And this may be a little difficult too because the guy has already been a dick so why should she expose herself to more?

The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.

Forgiveness and understanding then, huh? I really appreciate the thoughtful way in which you framed this, Kalach. Im curious to see if the OP posts a follow up so we actually know what she decided after all the discussion.

No, I don't totally disagree with everything Wind-up Rex wrote. In fact I didn't even read it all before I posted as I was headed out the door. But I did totally disagree with her call to action:

Behind every brash statement is almost always a long winded explanation I probably dont have the patience to get into.

 

[Kalach]

Forgiveness and understanding then, huh?

Not sure. Mostly that formula is a way of letting INTJs function. See, in situations like these, the Fi choice is actually easier than the Te choice: the Te choice puts one's lil throbbing on the line where the Fi choice protects it, so if one is going to take the Te choice, one needs a reason. Or something like that.

But anyway, while we're waiting on updates, a tangent:

If this is how it works for INTJ:

The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.

State or others, what's the analogous crossroads for INFJ? Is it:

The Ti choice: "There is no truth at all here, I'm disgusted!"

The Fe choice: approach, smile, describe what you need and ask if he will cooperate.

???


(Oh, my J is tingling, almost can't post, introducing tangential discussion that won't help the OP, but still really curious... argh!)

 

[the state i am in]

Not sure. Mostly that formula is a way of letting INTJs function. See, in situations like these, the Fi choice is actually easier than the Te choice: the Te choice puts one's lil throbbing on the line where the Fi choice protects it, so if one is going to take the Te choice, one needs a reason. Or something like that.

State or others, what's the analogous crossroads for INFJ? Is it:

The Ti choice: "There is no truth at all here, I'm disgusted!"

The Fe choice: approach, smile, describe what you need and ask if he will cooperate.

Fe is similarly the man-up choice. it is the one to go get good information. to be active and resistant and push your weight around by expressing your feelings and impressions and by getting others to as well. it helps create an environment of open communication where we relate to each other as selves and get a better sense of the holism of others and our own in the (social) mirror (/"official" instant replay).

Ti is confusing. when asked what i *want* in situations i pause bc i really don't know. i can either use Fe to test the waters, to explore ephemeral moments and learn what is important to me, or i can use Ti to draw causal connections between things and line up my Ni connections in a specific way. with no balancing Fe and serious stress, it does often descend into negativity, self-justification, and general putridness. at the same time, when i am holding my shit together and being stronger and more determined, or when i end up organizing myself and exploring other possibilities through writing, i get the best sense of what i need to do in any situation. for us left- brained j'ers the integration of the tertiary function supplies us with a healthy dose of the much needed right-brained in the moment big-picture general-flow not the hyper-focused zoomed-in-detail that makes j (introverted perceivers) often lose sight of what is important and get caught up in serious anxiety. some overarching design (plus faith in it) that connects the individual localized maps of meaning we use in the fields in which we are seriously knowledgeable and masterful and borderline omniscient. bc without any connection between the moving parts of our mental machine, we are autistic and unable to see wide-ranging panoramic shots and the great unfolding expanse of life.

in other words, we need extraverted judging to get us good information and draw patterns (connections) that are accurate and realistic and made of this world (which is a decidedly different substance than Ni). (this helps us merge our Ni visions of the world and the world we live in). but we need tertiary introverted judging to map them out internally and draw in the big basic landmarks that are important to us and finish our road map and our own individual game piece signifying ourselves on the actual game board.



i just realized i got way too theoretical. the short answer is Fe would be best mixing it up. but it's fear is Fe implosion and Ti, in conjunction, hanging a truth over it's head, a sign like a scarlet letter. just that the fear of rejection would produce a chain reaction where all our worst fears become knowledge and we ostracize ourselves from ourselves and, as a result, feel like we must go into hiding.

 

[thescientist]

Hmmm....so I'm back from my 1-week trip and get back to work tomorrow. I have no idea how he'll behave towards me after this break. I guess I'll feel it out for a few days. If the tension and hot/cold continues I'll speak to him for MY own sake.

Sort of off-topic...I got some souvenirs while I was in NY. You guys think I should give him one on my return to work tomorrow?

 

[violet_crown]

for us left- brained j'ers the integration of the tertiary function supplies us with a healthy dose of the much needed right-brained in the moment big-picture general-flow not the hyper-focused zoomed-in-detail that makes j (introverted perceivers) often lose sight of what is important and get caught up in serious anxiety.

This is an idea Ive heard many times before but never explained in quite this way. It's not that the tertiary function is an anchor, its that it somehow lessens the stakes. The theme of the last year for me has been learning to "live in the moment" (Se). Kind of a slippery thing to master, but has definitely been worth the process.

 

[thescientist]

UPDATE

--UPDATE--

Thanks to everyone for their insight.

I returned to work today and everything went great. I didn't have 'the talk' with him. He was very amicable and flirty and just generally very nice to me so I didnt think it was necessary. It's almost like he needed the break from me. Maybe he was feeling suffocated? Who knows. Guess my vacation was perfect timing. I think he missed me around work. He asked me how long I was gone for and said that it felt like a really long time.

I was friendly and nice, not overly so, but maybe just a tad flirtatious. I was jJust excited to tell him about my trip, and he was excited to hear about it. I avoided any stinging sarcasm. I realized a lot of my past sarcasm was in the presence of other male coworkers and it probably hurt his ego big time.

Anyhow, we'll see how long this lasts. I don't think he's interested in pursuing anything serious which I'm totally fine with. At least the tension is not there and things seem to be back to normal...for today.

I'm definitely learning how to better interact with with ENFP's.

 

[Economica]

 

[Amargith]

awesome

 

[thescientist]

== Another Update ==

So last week went great. All 3 days he was friendly and touchy feely and just his goofy self. VERY flirtatious, I'm sure innocently intended. He actually walked me to my car one day. Even went out to lunch with a group of coworkers in his car, granted he didn't invite me, another coworker did, but still we had a nice time. I've been careful about being sarcastic or saying anything to personally attack him.

Monday I come in to work...wow, it's like a whole 'nother person! WTH? He didnt say a peep to me the entire day. But in general he was just more serious. He conversed with the other coworkers, but he didnt joke around with them as usual. He didn't turn the silly switch on AT ALL, which he normally would do a few times a day.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt though, because I dont know if something happened during the weekend that's causing him to behave this way. My crazy brain is over-analyzing thinking that he's doing this again to send me a HINT to ensure that I'm not feeling led on after all the flirtation that ensued last week. Is this possible?

When an ENFP doesnt turn on the silly switch at all for a day when they normally would, what does that usually mean?

I guess we'll see what he's like tomorrow. Hope it's hot and NOT cold. I'd even accept room temperature...just be consistent!

I'm hoping that logging my experience with this ENFP is helping someone out there understand them better.

 

[Amargith]

well you're probably rigth about something happening during the weekend. As long as he is this way with everyone and not blatantly just with you, he's probably just having a bad day

 

[Lasting_Pain]

So last week went great. All 3 days he was friendly and touchy feely and just his goofy self. VERY flirtatious, I'm sure innocently intended. He actually walked me to my car one day. Even went out to lunch with a group of coworkers in his car, granted he didn't invite me, another coworker did, but still we had a nice time. I've been careful about being sarcastic or saying anything to personally attack him.

Monday I come in to work...wow, it's like a whole 'nother person! WTH? He didnt say a peep to me the entire day. But in general he was just more serious. He conversed with the other coworkers, but he didnt joke around with them as usual. He didn't turn the silly switch on AT ALL, which he normally would do a few times a day.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt though, because I dont know if something happened during the weekend that's causing him to behave this way. My crazy brain is over-analyzing thinking that he's doing this again to send me a HINT to ensure that I'm not feeling led on after all the flirtation that ensued last week. Is this possible?

When an ENFP doesnt turn on the silly switch at all for a day when they normally would, what does that usually mean?

I guess we'll see what he's like tomorrow. Hope it's hot and NOT cold. I'd even accept room temperature...just be consistent!

I'm hoping that logging my experience with this ENFP is helping someone out there understand them better.

Emotions can be very difficult to understand. It is obvious that you like this person and I wish you the best of luck in this potential relationship.

You probably would not want my advice, however.

 

[Lethe]

So last week went great. All 3 days he was friendly and touchy feely and just his goofy self. VERY flirtatious, I'm sure innocently intended. He actually walked me to my car one day. Even went out to lunch with a group of coworkers in his car, granted he didn't invite me, another coworker did, but still we had a nice time. I've been careful about being sarcastic or saying anything to personally attack him.

Monday I come in to work...wow, it's like a whole 'nother person! WTH? He didnt say a peep to me the entire day. But in general he was just more serious. He conversed with the other coworkers, but he didnt joke around with them as usual. He didn't turn the silly switch on AT ALL, which he normally would do a few times a day.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt though, because I dont know if something happened during the weekend that's causing him to behave this way. My crazy brain is over-analyzing thinking that he's doing this again to send me a HINT to ensure that I'm not feeling led on after all the flirtation that ensued last week. Is this possible?

When an ENFP doesnt turn on the silly switch at all for a day when they normally would, what does that usually mean?

I guess we'll see what he's like tomorrow. Hope it's hot and NOT cold. I'd even accept room temperature...just be consistent!

I'm hoping that logging my experience with this ENFP is helping someone out there understand them better.

Those were once my exact thoughts.

In conclusion, I found it was best not to take that personally. My ENFP defines the 'hot and cold' characteristic and the Ne-Fi combo takes him on drastic mood swings. One moment, he's having the best time of his life (to 'mask' his disturbance), the next.... he'll brood about an unfortunate morning incident with a colleague. His emotional world sometimes share a resemblance to a natural disaster. As long as this isn't affecting his judgment, I wouldn't over-analyze it. (I'd even go as far as to say, if he's comfortable sharing these concerns with you, that's a good sign of his trust.)

YouTube - Katy Perry - Hot N Cold
( I couldn't resist. )

 

[Lasting_Pain]

I'm hoping that logging my experience with this ENFP is helping someone out there understand them better.

Yeah it gives me another reason to find a NFJ over a NFP.

 

[thescientist]

Emotions can be very difficult to understand. It is obvious that you like this person and I wish you the best of luck in this potential relationship.

I do like him, I understand that he's not romantically interested. Physical attraction is there. Our dating was fun while it lasted. The only relationship I want to establish now is that of a friendship because I sincerely enjoy his company.

You probably would not want my advice, however.

Why not?