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[ENFP] INTJ trying to understand an ENFP's actions

the state i am in

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my advice is that you should spend less time with Ni scanning for connections and more time going out and actively making them. use Te to get better information. if you use Te and are direct, you will have a much better chance to learn what you want to know. and expressing yourself in this way, you'll get better/feel more comfortable doing it in the future. gotta protect those Fi feelings, yes, but can't get stuck using them to find negative Ni justifications everywhere. many many things are easily fixable and intjs usually have plenty of ideas to go about it.

intjs come off as rude and harsh at times. but they can fucking communicate very well when they use their Te. directness is the key. and time to let it sift afterward.
 

violet_crown

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I'm not very happy with ENFPs at present and feel like it's not worth your trouble or pain (I suppose you're forced to seeing as he's a coworker, but otherwise, just walk away). Look at all the accomodating you're doing when this person is pouting in a corner like a little (cruel) child. The fuck.

Many a girl throw themselves at the ENFP boy, and the ENFP boy loses interest in many a girl. It happens every day.

You must manipulate him in the coldest way to win his heart. First, reject him. This will drive him wild. Then, hold him between rejection and acceptance. He'll love it and will love you for it.

This seems evil but really you're doing him a sadistic service that he'll find intensely pleasurable and that only the most worthy girl can deliver. :D He might just marry you.

NOW GO FORTH AND CONQUER!

Here here. I mean, the guys already running games and thats probably not likely to change even if you all do start dating again. Eventually itll just end up meaning more and more compromise on your part; nothing will ever be his fault, ever. Unless this guy is Einstein with the body of Brad Pitt 20 years ago you can find another, fairly easily in all probability. And if you notice the second quote, it is undoubtable that the lack of attention will leave him just riveted because its soo much more exciting than a frank adult discussion. I think you should let it ride, or find an ENTP who is basically the same thing except you wont have to debase yourself every time you engage in a little friendly banter.
 

seeker22

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I mean, the guys already running games and thats probably not likely to change even if you all do start dating again. Eventually itll just end up meaning more and more compromise on your part; nothing will ever be his fault, ever. And if you notice the second quote, it is undoubtable that the lack of attention will leave him just riveted because its soo much more exciting than a frank adult discussion.

Wow. This is pretty darn brutal. I disagree. I don't think he's playing games. I also think he would be willing to have a frank adult discussion. I believe this is a good old fashioned case of "he got his feelings hurt." Just my humble opinion. Don't give up OP.

I think you should let it ride, or find an ENTP who is basically the same thing except you wont have to debase yourself every time you engage in a little friendly banter.

ENFPs are QUITE capable of friendly banter, thank you very much! ;)
 

Amargith

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Here here. I mean, the guys already running games and thats probably not likely to change even if you all do start dating again. Eventually itll just end up meaning more and more compromise on your part; nothing will ever be his fault, ever. Unless this guy is Einstein with the body of Brad Pitt 20 years ago you can find another, fairly easily in all probability. And if you notice the second quote, it is undoubtable that the lack of attention will leave him just riveted because its soo much more exciting than a frank adult discussion. I think you should let it ride, or find an ENTP who is basically the same thing except you wont have to debase yourself every time you engage in a little friendly banter.

There is no way to know for us on the forum what he's like. So you might have a point. Personally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. She seems to really like him, so why not give it another shot and get rid of the original obstacle. We often need a moment to get to know an NT in order to get acquainted with their kind of humor and estimate what you joke about and what is serious business for you. Much like many NTs need a moment to get the flirting and socializing right :alttongue:
 

violet_crown

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Wow. This is pretty darn brutal. I disagree. I don't think he's playing games. I also think he would be willing to have a frank adult discussion. I believe this is a good old fashioned case of "he got his feelings hurt." Just my humble opinion. Don't give up OP.

And I respect that. However, from my experience with ENFs, even if the frank conversation comes to pass and everything is back to the way that it was, there will still be a certain kind of interaction expected how and when and if he likes it. Im not saying that compromise isnt necessary in any relationship. But I have noticed a tendency on the part of ENFs to use their sensitivity as leverage on those closest to them. My point is that, the kind of guy that would do this hot/cold nonsense indicates a person whos basically only interested in himself, or lacks the courage of his feeling. And I think that the OP, rather than wandering about and imaging every slander towards him should remember the simple fact that hes rudely brushing her off after leading her on and that shes hurt.

Scientist, if he really interests you, then you should talk to this guy. You should ask him what his deals been, and if he tells you you hurt him go from there. But the fact that you "wounded his masculinity" or whatever in the past, doesnt mean you should have to approach him like a freakin supplicant for ever after. Finally Id like to point out that-- despite the fact that they were talked down--most of the NTJ women whove weighed in on this have given you the same advice, which should tell you something.
 

violet_crown

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There is no way to know for us on the forum what he's like. So you might have a point. Personally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. She seems to really like him, so why not give it another shot and get rid of the original obstacle. We often need a moment to get to know an NT in order to get acquainted with their kind of humor and estimate what you joke about and what is serious business for you. Much like many NTs need a moment to get the flirting and socializing right :alttongue:

And once again, it is entirely possible that this guy is the greatest thing ever and all this is just a silly misunderstanding. But that doesnt change the fact that there can be a slippery and seductive slope in dealing with NFs where the ideal amount of balance and compromise is "the point where the NF is happy and petted", because NTs dont make as big of a deal about their emotional needs so they end up getting sidelined. Scientist would not be wrong to be pissed off at this guy, and put-off by his behavior and that doesnt have to be measured or justified in terms of anyone else.

Oh, and PS, you must have mistaken us for something else, because last I checked the ENT crowd had much game (and the INTs are trainable!). :smooch:
 

Economica

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I don't have time to elaborate now, but just for the record in case anyone wonders, this female INTJ with 7 years of experience with a male ENFP, including a few excellent years that I partially credit with making me such a well-rounded INTJ (still working on the modesty though! ;)), totally disagrees with Wind-up Rex! :rolleyes:

(You gave us Argumentum ad numerum, I counter with Argumentum ad verecundiam. :D)
 

the state i am in

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this should be captioned dominant Te runs amok!
 

violet_crown

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^^^I immediately thought of this.
[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U"]Te Amok Time[/YOUTUBE]




(You gave us Argumentum ad numerum, I counter with Argumentum ad verecundiam. :D)

Any good orator knows to keep in mind her audience when making an appeal. As you may expect, Im generally more of an ad baculum girl. :devil:
 

SillySapienne

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THE MAIN IDEAS IN THIS THREAD ARE WRONG!

Many a girl throw themselves at the ENFP boy, and the ENFP boy loses interest in many a girl. It happens every day.

You must manipulate him in the coldest way to win his heart. First, reject him. This will drive him wild. Then, hold him between rejection and acceptance. He'll love it and will love you for it.

This seems evil but really you're doing him a sadistic service that he'll find intensely pleasurable and that only the most worthy girl can deliver. :D He might just marry you.

NOW GO FORTH AND CONQUER!
Hahahahahaa, this post is awesome!!!

I must admit that being held somewhere between acceptance and rejection by someone I am fond of seems familiar yet exhilarating.

Much more when I was younger, though residually lingering still, I used to be attracted to those who were inattentive to me, and who doled out their attention gingerly.

I cannot be with someone whose presence suffocates me

Having plenty of space is important to me, and I seem to prefer chasing to being chased.
 

murkrow

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THE MAIN IDEAS IN THIS THREAD ARE WRONG!

Many a girl throw themselves at the ENFP boy, and the ENFP boy loses interest in many a girl. It happens every day.

You must manipulate him in the coldest way to win his heart. First, reject him. This will drive him wild. Then, hold him between rejection and acceptance. He'll love it and will love you for it.

This seems evil but really you're doing him a sadistic service that he'll find intensely pleasurable and that only the most worthy girl can deliver. :D He might just marry you.

NOW GO FORTH AND CONQUER!

A lurker no longer?

Best first post ever.

I agree though, an INTJ is never going to be able to keep up with an ENFP when it comes to thinking on the fly. It would be like dropping a stone and a feather from a tall building and seeing which ends up further from the wall.
 

Amargith

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And once again, it is entirely possible that this guy is the greatest thing ever and all this is just a silly misunderstanding. But that doesnt change the fact that there can be a slippery and seductive slope in dealing with NFs where the ideal amount of balance and compromise is "the point where the NF is happy and petted", because NTs dont make as big of a deal about their emotional needs so they end up getting sidelined. Scientist would not be wrong to be pissed off at this guy, and put-off by his behavior and that doesnt have to be measured or justified in terms of anyone else.

Oh, and PS, you must have mistaken us for something else, because last I checked the ENT crowd had much game (and the INTs are trainable!). :smooch:

I respectfullly disagree. It might be true for those that have been hurt too many times, or are learning still, but I've found that if given the chance to get to know the style of the NT, enfps in general and I personally adapt to that person because we enjoy harmony, not conflict and don't judge easily. Yes, our core values are sensitive, but you shouldn't encounter those anyways till later on, if and when we decide to trust you and let you in, or you bulldozer your way in. I myself take a while to adapt to the person in question and figure out exactly what it is they find funny and how they banter. It's one of the first things I like to find out as it makes interaction so much more pleasant and misunderstandings go down instantly. But I do need the other person to give me a chance to tune into their frequency ;)

And I also respectfully disagree when you say you have the same game as us with people :D

Yes, you are a sight to be seen, and I'll be the first to stare at an ENTJ in awe and enjoy their presence. No, you do not have our finesse with people, nor the flexibility we possess to adapt to them, whoever they are, given enough incentive. Don't tell us how to do what we do best, and give us the time and space we need. I know, patience isn't your strength either, but do try. I don't tell you how to do your job either ;)

Now, if you would've been an ENFJ..that would've been an entirely different thing, as I do bow to them when it comes to crowds. Crowds is what they do best.
 

violet_crown

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I respectfullly disagree. It might be true for those that have been hurt too many times, or are learning still

Leaves a rather small segment of the population there, and even the emotionally mature have lapses.

Given the chance to get to know the style of the NT, enfps in general and I personally adapt to that person because we enjoy harmony, not conflict and don't judge easily. Yes, our core values are sensitive, but you shouldn't encounter those anyways till later on, if and when we decide to trust you and let you in, or you bulldozer your way in. I myself take a while to adapt to the person in question and figure out exactly what it is they find funny and how they banter. It's one of the first things I like to find out as it makes interaction so much more pleasant and misunderstandings go down instantly. But I do need the other person to give me a chance to tune into their frequency ;)

Then you are undoubtedly one of the more mature ones, and what you are describing is your type at their best. I admire that you are able to see the best in people in this way, but as much value as there is in that there is certainly also value in doing ones best to see the whole reality of someone good and bad.

My whole point in posting in this thread is not to bash NFs, or to necessarily discourage Scientist from going after this guy. My point is that while compromise is necessary in all relationships, there has to come a point where you have a responsibility to yourself and your own happiness, and any SO that doesnt contribute to that should be dropped like a bad habit. The OP should talk it out with this guy if its what makes her happy, but also note that a small interpersonal "uh-oh" doesnt give him carte blanche to treat her however he wants. This is particularly the case, when in reading this thread you have other ENFPs chiming in that theyre not exactly strangers to emotional game playing. And, PS, to say that ENFPs arent judgemental is just not true. Yall are highly opinionated and very vocal about what you do and do not agree with. Doesnt detract from the overall charm, but to say that you (as a type) are bushy-tailed and accommodating is not factual.

And I also respectfully disagree when you say you have the same game as us with people :D

Yes, you are a sight to be seen, and I'll be the first to stare at an ENTJ in awe and enjoy their presence. No, you do not have our finesse with people, nor the flexibility we possess to adapt to them, whoever they are, given enough incentive.

Haha. Now this is kind of a derail, but I'm not saying that an ENT is going to be prom king. I can't speak for the Ps, but I know most Js spend the better part of their youth figuring out why everyone runs away after a friendly "exchange" with them. What I meant was that even if you thought he was the biggest asshole you ever met, that same guy turns on that animal charisma there are few he can't have.

Don't tell us how to do what we do best, and give us the time and space we need. I know, patience isn't your strength either, but do try. I don't tell you how to do your job either ;)

I won't, its not and I do. And I'm thrilled to here you concede I'm better suited to giving another NT advice on the NF/NT relationship. :D

Now, if you would've been an ENFJ..that would've been an entirely different thing, as I do bow to them when it comes to crowds. Crowds is what they do best.

Yes its better to never get between an ENFJ and the source of their sense of self-worth.
 

Amargith

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Leaves a rather small segment of the population there, and even the emotionally mature have lapses.



Then you are undoubtedly one of the more mature ones, and what you are describing is your type at their best. I admire that you are able to see the best in people in this way, but as much value as there is in that there is certainly also value in doing ones best to see the whole reality of someone good and bad.

My whole point in posting in this thread is not to bash NFs, or to necessarily discourage Scientist from going after this guy. My point is that while compromise is necessary in all relationships, there has to come a point where you have a responsibility to yourself and your own happiness, and any SO that doesnt contribute to that should be dropped like a bad habit. The OP should talk it out with this guy if its what makes her happy, but also note that a small interpersonal "uh-oh" doesnt give him carte blanche to treat her however he wants. This is particularly the case, when in reading this thread you have other ENFPs chiming in that theyre not exactly strangers to emotional game playing. And, PS, to say that ENFPs arent judgemental is just not true. Yall are highly opinionated and very vocal about what you do and do not agree with. Doesnt detract from the overall charm, but to say that you (as a type) are bushy-tailed and accommodating is not factual.


Oh, I know you're not ENFP-bashing, but that won't stop me from telling you when you're wrong or a bit...quick to decide? ;)

Ftr, I don't recommend giving in to anyones whims, but I do encourage double-checking before you judge.

Just because ENFPs are capable of emotional games, doesn't mean they will play it. That depends on which values they adhere to, so you have to check those before you can be sure.

As for the judgemental remark...it's not because I'm vocal about what I believe in and am passionate about, that I will judge you for not sharing that opinion. On the contrary. I'll be curious about your pov, as it could enrich my own. And I'll propose an exchange. Even if I disagree with you, one of my greatest values is that everyone is allowed to their own opinion and personal freedom is to be respected as long as it doesn't harm others or restrict others freedom in the process. That means no judging and a 'live and let live'- approach. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this is a very commonly held ENFP value. So I once again must respectfully disagree with your conclusions :D



Haha. Now this is kind of a derail, but I'm not saying that an ENT is going to be prom king. I can't speak for the Ps, but I know most Js spend the better part of their youth figuring out why everyone runs away after a friendly "exchange" with them. What I meant was that even if you thought he was the biggest asshole you ever met, that same guy turns on that animal charisma there are few he can't have.

Effective, for sure. Crude though, with little refinement. Just not up to my standard, sorry :devil:



I won't, its not and I do. And I'm thrilled to here you concede I'm better suited to giving another NT advice on the NF/NT relationship. :D

Nice try, I did no such thing. You may regard it as your job, but giving relationship advice is hardly part of an ENTJs job description, especially when the topic is INTJ-ENFP. You're welcome to advise me on how to best organize my sockdrawer though, or where to put which furniture when I move :smooch:


Yes its better to never get between an ENFJ and the source of their sense of self-worth.

Aww :hug:

No need to be envious, baby. You have your skills too. Remember the sockdrawer?
 

violet_crown

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Oh, I know you're not ENFP-bashing, but that won't stop me from telling you when you're wrong or a bit...quick to decide? ;)

Ftr, I don't recommend giving in to anyones whims, but I do encourage double-checking before you judge.


Just because ENFPs are capable of emotional games, doesn't mean they will play it. That depends on which values they adhere to, so you have to check those before you can be sure.

Im only quick to decide because as Ive gotten older my patience for games of any sort has become more and more finite. It's true that any possible number of things could have gone into making this guy behave the way that he did, but its that very murkiness that gives him an advantage even if she does confront him. Because no matter how you roll it, if she approaches him and asks him what happened her entire understanding will then hinge one how he explains his motivations. He could have had his feelings hurt. He could be seeing someone else. He could have gotten bored. Hes so in love hes afraid of losing himself. He doesnt want the guys at the office to know hes dating someone they work with. Any of these things could be given as an explanation and none could be true, but he now has defined what was a painful experience for the OP in whatever way best suits him currently, thus defining how they go forward.

ENFs are glib with emotional games. They can say that they're not necessarily playing because what theyve told the other person is not necessarily untrue, and just happens to coincide with what they believe to be the most comfortable explanation for both parties, and especially happens to be most comfortable for them. This is not just in confrontation, but any interaction. Like you said, you like peace and harmony, you give the other person what they want so that peace and harmony is achieved. That, no matter how benign helpful or endearing, is manipulative.

So the check, if any, should be based on her own understanding of the facts and if she wants to allow him a chance to explain why hes hurt her, then she should. She could not do anything and see what explanation he comes to her with. Or she can cut her losses and go on bout her business. But to reiterate for the trillionth time, whatever happens needs to be about her and what she wants and not him.


Effective, for sure. Crude though, with little refinement. Just not up to my standard, sorry :devil:

And yet, you seemed so very impressed by that same unrefined, dominant masculinity when actually presented with it. :smoke:


No need to be envious, baby. You have your skills too. Remember the sockdrawer?

Certainly. And to paraphrase a wise woman, just because I'm capable of doing chores for you, doesnt mean you couldnt kiss my ass instead. :)
 

Strawberrylover

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ENFs are glib with emotional games. They can say that they're not necessarily playing because what theyve told the other person is not necessarily untrue, and just happens to coincide with what they believe to be the most comfortable explanation for both parties, and especially happens to be most comfortable for them.

Haha. Damn you see right through us!!

Edited to add: I've become more aware of this recently and I've been trying to NOT do that harmonizing crap, but it's almost like autopilot. That's why I love INFJs and INTJs. They force me to peel back layers of these kinds of pretense and figure out what I actually want from our interactions.

As for Scientist's situation, you could argue that her ENFP man seems to have the upper hand in this situation. But then again, he might be feeling the same way about her sarcastic remarks and put-downs. The truth is somewhere in between.
 

Kalach

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I'm going to have to go ahead and assume that the best sensitive person doesn't regard their sensitivity as a liability, but a skill. And I'm going to have to make that assumption because otherwise you have a world where INTJs are supposed to look after ENFP sensitivity.

Presumably too one has to say the best blunt truth teller isn't one who find themselves constantly breaking down the people around him, but building them up. Otherwise you have a world where ENFPs have to remind INTJs of what the real truths are.

And in fact in the best possible world INTJs do look after ENFP sensitivity and ENFPs do remind INTJs of what are the deeper truths. But neither can really do that to perfection without getting their own shit together first.

Thus, it's a risk, but Scientist should be calling this guy out and asking WTF, and if she does, she is giving him the benefit of an assumption of maturity--that this guy is capable of being proud of what he is, and is able to speak the words. This may be a little difficult for him now, what with time having passed and some obvious mistakes having been made. And Scientist too is going to have to assume for herself some maturity too--that sometimes being harsh is more a protective move than truth-seeking. And this may be a little difficult too because the guy has already been a dick so why should she expose herself to more?

The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.
 

Amargith

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Im only quick to decide because as Ive gotten older my patience for games of any sort has become more and more finite. It's true that any possible number of things could have gone into making this guy behave the way that he did, but its that very murkiness that gives him an advantage even if she does confront him. Because no matter how you roll it, if she approaches him and asks him what happened her entire understanding will then hinge one how he explains his motivations. He could have had his feelings hurt. He could be seeing someone else. He could have gotten bored. Hes so in love hes afraid of losing himself. He doesnt want the guys at the office to know hes dating someone they work with. Any of these things could be given as an explanation and none could be true, but he now has defined what was a painful experience for the OP in whatever way best suits him currently, thus defining how they go forward.

ENFs are glib with emotional games. They can say that they're not necessarily playing because what theyve told the other person is not necessarily untrue, and just happens to coincide with what they believe to be the most comfortable explanation for both parties, and especially happens to be most comfortable for them. This is not just in confrontation, but any interaction. Like you said, you like peace and harmony, you give the other person what they want so that peace and harmony is achieved. That, no matter how benign helpful or endearing, is manipulative.

So the check, if any, should be based on her own understanding of the facts and if she wants to allow him a chance to explain why hes hurt her, then she should. She could not do anything and see what explanation he comes to her with. Or she can cut her losses and go on bout her business. But to reiterate for the trillionth time, whatever happens needs to be about her and what she wants and not him.

Aww, but giving someone the benefit of the doubt has its perks. They can rise to the occasion. Even if it takes them two, three or four times. *looks hopeful at you* :alttongue:




And yet, you seemed so very impressed by that same unrefined, dominant masculinity when actually presented with it. :smoke:

Seemed being the operative word here :D
I thoroughly enjoy playing with you lot, and I appreciate your breed plenty, but I think that Jaguar would be disappointed if I would swoon over him after just this. I'm sure he has an entire bag of tricks I haven't seen yet. Can't wait :D




Certainly. And to paraphrase a wise woman, just because I'm capable of doing chores for you, doesnt mean you couldnt kiss my ass instead. :)

:smooch: :D


I'm going to have to go ahead and assume that the best sensitive person doesn't regard their sensitivity as a liability, but a skill. And I'm going to have to make that assumption because otherwise you have a world where INTJs are supposed to look after ENFP sensitivity.

Presumably too one has to say the best blunt truth teller isn't one who find themselves constantly breaking down the people around him, but building them up. Otherwise you have a world where ENFPs have to remind INTJs of what the real truths are.

And in fact in the best possible world INTJs do look after ENFP sensitivity and ENFPs do remind INTJs of what are the deeper truths. But neither can really do that to perfection without getting their own shit together first.

Thus, it's a risk, but Scientist should be calling this guy out and asking WTF, and if she does, she is giving him the benefit of an assumption of maturity--that this guy is capable of being proud of what he is, and is able to speak the words. This may be a little difficult for him now, what with time having passed and some obvious mistakes having been made. And Scientist too is going to have to assume for herself some maturity too--that sometimes being harsh is more a protective move than truth-seeking. And this may be a little difficult too because the guy has already been a dick so why should she expose herself to more?

The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.

:yes:


Funny, for me it would be Fi demanding answers and giving the benefit of the doubt and figuring it out, and Te going 'who needs him, anyways!'
 

Blackwater

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there can be a slippery and seductive slope in dealing with NFs where the ideal amount of balance and compromise is "the point where the NF is happy and petted", because NTs dont make as big of a deal about their emotional needs so they end up getting sidelined.

you totally disagree with this, economica?
 
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