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  1. #71
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supern View Post
    THE MAIN IDEAS IN THIS THREAD ARE WRONG!

    Many a girl throw themselves at the ENFP boy, and the ENFP boy loses interest in many a girl. It happens every day.

    You must manipulate him in the coldest way to win his heart. First, reject him. This will drive him wild. Then, hold him between rejection and acceptance. He'll love it and will love you for it.

    This seems evil but really you're doing him a sadistic service that he'll find intensely pleasurable and that only the most worthy girl can deliver. He might just marry you.

    NOW GO FORTH AND CONQUER!
    Hahahahahaa, this post is awesome!!!

    I must admit that being held somewhere between acceptance and rejection by someone I am fond of seems familiar yet exhilarating.

    Much more when I was younger, though residually lingering still, I used to be attracted to those who were inattentive to me, and who doled out their attention gingerly.

    I cannot be with someone whose presence suffocates me

    Having plenty of space is important to me, and I seem to prefer chasing to being chased.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #72
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supern View Post
    THE MAIN IDEAS IN THIS THREAD ARE WRONG!

    Many a girl throw themselves at the ENFP boy, and the ENFP boy loses interest in many a girl. It happens every day.

    You must manipulate him in the coldest way to win his heart. First, reject him. This will drive him wild. Then, hold him between rejection and acceptance. He'll love it and will love you for it.

    This seems evil but really you're doing him a sadistic service that he'll find intensely pleasurable and that only the most worthy girl can deliver. He might just marry you.

    NOW GO FORTH AND CONQUER!
    A lurker no longer?

    Best first post ever.

    I agree though, an INTJ is never going to be able to keep up with an ENFP when it comes to thinking on the fly. It would be like dropping a stone and a feather from a tall building and seeing which ends up further from the wall.
    wails from the crypt.

  3. #73
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    And once again, it is entirely possible that this guy is the greatest thing ever and all this is just a silly misunderstanding. But that doesnt change the fact that there can be a slippery and seductive slope in dealing with NFs where the ideal amount of balance and compromise is "the point where the NF is happy and petted", because NTs dont make as big of a deal about their emotional needs so they end up getting sidelined. Scientist would not be wrong to be pissed off at this guy, and put-off by his behavior and that doesnt have to be measured or justified in terms of anyone else.

    Oh, and PS, you must have mistaken us for something else, because last I checked the ENT crowd had much game (and the INTs are trainable!).
    I respectfullly disagree. It might be true for those that have been hurt too many times, or are learning still, but I've found that if given the chance to get to know the style of the NT, enfps in general and I personally adapt to that person because we enjoy harmony, not conflict and don't judge easily. Yes, our core values are sensitive, but you shouldn't encounter those anyways till later on, if and when we decide to trust you and let you in, or you bulldozer your way in. I myself take a while to adapt to the person in question and figure out exactly what it is they find funny and how they banter. It's one of the first things I like to find out as it makes interaction so much more pleasant and misunderstandings go down instantly. But I do need the other person to give me a chance to tune into their frequency

    And I also respectfully disagree when you say you have the same game as us with people

    Yes, you are a sight to be seen, and I'll be the first to stare at an ENTJ in awe and enjoy their presence. No, you do not have our finesse with people, nor the flexibility we possess to adapt to them, whoever they are, given enough incentive. Don't tell us how to do what we do best, and give us the time and space we need. I know, patience isn't your strength either, but do try. I don't tell you how to do your job either

    Now, if you would've been an ENFJ..that would've been an entirely different thing, as I do bow to them when it comes to crowds. Crowds is what they do best.
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  4. #74
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I respectfullly disagree. It might be true for those that have been hurt too many times, or are learning still
    Leaves a rather small segment of the population there, and even the emotionally mature have lapses.

    Given the chance to get to know the style of the NT, enfps in general and I personally adapt to that person because we enjoy harmony, not conflict and don't judge easily. Yes, our core values are sensitive, but you shouldn't encounter those anyways till later on, if and when we decide to trust you and let you in, or you bulldozer your way in. I myself take a while to adapt to the person in question and figure out exactly what it is they find funny and how they banter. It's one of the first things I like to find out as it makes interaction so much more pleasant and misunderstandings go down instantly. But I do need the other person to give me a chance to tune into their frequency
    Then you are undoubtedly one of the more mature ones, and what you are describing is your type at their best. I admire that you are able to see the best in people in this way, but as much value as there is in that there is certainly also value in doing ones best to see the whole reality of someone good and bad.

    My whole point in posting in this thread is not to bash NFs, or to necessarily discourage Scientist from going after this guy. My point is that while compromise is necessary in all relationships, there has to come a point where you have a responsibility to yourself and your own happiness, and any SO that doesnt contribute to that should be dropped like a bad habit. The OP should talk it out with this guy if its what makes her happy, but also note that a small interpersonal "uh-oh" doesnt give him carte blanche to treat her however he wants. This is particularly the case, when in reading this thread you have other ENFPs chiming in that theyre not exactly strangers to emotional game playing. And, PS, to say that ENFPs arent judgemental is just not true. Yall are highly opinionated and very vocal about what you do and do not agree with. Doesnt detract from the overall charm, but to say that you (as a type) are bushy-tailed and accommodating is not factual.

    And I also respectfully disagree when you say you have the same game as us with people

    Yes, you are a sight to be seen, and I'll be the first to stare at an ENTJ in awe and enjoy their presence. No, you do not have our finesse with people, nor the flexibility we possess to adapt to them, whoever they are, given enough incentive.
    Haha. Now this is kind of a derail, but I'm not saying that an ENT is going to be prom king. I can't speak for the Ps, but I know most Js spend the better part of their youth figuring out why everyone runs away after a friendly "exchange" with them. What I meant was that even if you thought he was the biggest asshole you ever met, that same guy turns on that animal charisma there are few he can't have.

    Don't tell us how to do what we do best, and give us the time and space we need. I know, patience isn't your strength either, but do try. I don't tell you how to do your job either
    I won't, its not and I do. And I'm thrilled to here you concede I'm better suited to giving another NT advice on the NF/NT relationship.

    Now, if you would've been an ENFJ..that would've been an entirely different thing, as I do bow to them when it comes to crowds. Crowds is what they do best.
    Yes its better to never get between an ENFJ and the source of their sense of self-worth.

  5. #75
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Leaves a rather small segment of the population there, and even the emotionally mature have lapses.



    Then you are undoubtedly one of the more mature ones, and what you are describing is your type at their best. I admire that you are able to see the best in people in this way, but as much value as there is in that there is certainly also value in doing ones best to see the whole reality of someone good and bad.

    My whole point in posting in this thread is not to bash NFs, or to necessarily discourage Scientist from going after this guy. My point is that while compromise is necessary in all relationships, there has to come a point where you have a responsibility to yourself and your own happiness, and any SO that doesnt contribute to that should be dropped like a bad habit. The OP should talk it out with this guy if its what makes her happy, but also note that a small interpersonal "uh-oh" doesnt give him carte blanche to treat her however he wants. This is particularly the case, when in reading this thread you have other ENFPs chiming in that theyre not exactly strangers to emotional game playing. And, PS, to say that ENFPs arent judgemental is just not true. Yall are highly opinionated and very vocal about what you do and do not agree with. Doesnt detract from the overall charm, but to say that you (as a type) are bushy-tailed and accommodating is not factual.

    Oh, I know you're not ENFP-bashing, but that won't stop me from telling you when you're wrong or a bit...quick to decide?

    Ftr, I don't recommend giving in to anyones whims, but I do encourage double-checking before you judge.

    Just because ENFPs are capable of emotional games, doesn't mean they will play it. That depends on which values they adhere to, so you have to check those before you can be sure.

    As for the judgemental remark...it's not because I'm vocal about what I believe in and am passionate about, that I will judge you for not sharing that opinion. On the contrary. I'll be curious about your pov, as it could enrich my own. And I'll propose an exchange. Even if I disagree with you, one of my greatest values is that everyone is allowed to their own opinion and personal freedom is to be respected as long as it doesn't harm others or restrict others freedom in the process. That means no judging and a 'live and let live'- approach. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this is a very commonly held ENFP value. So I once again must respectfully disagree with your conclusions



    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Haha. Now this is kind of a derail, but I'm not saying that an ENT is going to be prom king. I can't speak for the Ps, but I know most Js spend the better part of their youth figuring out why everyone runs away after a friendly "exchange" with them. What I meant was that even if you thought he was the biggest asshole you ever met, that same guy turns on that animal charisma there are few he can't have.
    Effective, for sure. Crude though, with little refinement. Just not up to my standard, sorry



    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I won't, its not and I do. And I'm thrilled to here you concede I'm better suited to giving another NT advice on the NF/NT relationship.
    Nice try, I did no such thing. You may regard it as your job, but giving relationship advice is hardly part of an ENTJs job description, especially when the topic is INTJ-ENFP. You're welcome to advise me on how to best organize my sockdrawer though, or where to put which furniture when I move


    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Yes its better to never get between an ENFJ and the source of their sense of self-worth.
    Aww

    No need to be envious, baby. You have your skills too. Remember the sockdrawer?
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  6. #76
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh, I know you're not ENFP-bashing, but that won't stop me from telling you when you're wrong or a bit...quick to decide?

    Ftr, I don't recommend giving in to anyones whims, but I do encourage double-checking before you judge.


    Just because ENFPs are capable of emotional games, doesn't mean they will play it. That depends on which values they adhere to, so you have to check those before you can be sure.
    Im only quick to decide because as Ive gotten older my patience for games of any sort has become more and more finite. It's true that any possible number of things could have gone into making this guy behave the way that he did, but its that very murkiness that gives him an advantage even if she does confront him. Because no matter how you roll it, if she approaches him and asks him what happened her entire understanding will then hinge one how he explains his motivations. He could have had his feelings hurt. He could be seeing someone else. He could have gotten bored. Hes so in love hes afraid of losing himself. He doesnt want the guys at the office to know hes dating someone they work with. Any of these things could be given as an explanation and none could be true, but he now has defined what was a painful experience for the OP in whatever way best suits him currently, thus defining how they go forward.

    ENFs are glib with emotional games. They can say that they're not necessarily playing because what theyve told the other person is not necessarily untrue, and just happens to coincide with what they believe to be the most comfortable explanation for both parties, and especially happens to be most comfortable for them. This is not just in confrontation, but any interaction. Like you said, you like peace and harmony, you give the other person what they want so that peace and harmony is achieved. That, no matter how benign helpful or endearing, is manipulative.

    So the check, if any, should be based on her own understanding of the facts and if she wants to allow him a chance to explain why hes hurt her, then she should. She could not do anything and see what explanation he comes to her with. Or she can cut her losses and go on bout her business. But to reiterate for the trillionth time, whatever happens needs to be about her and what she wants and not him.


    Effective, for sure. Crude though, with little refinement. Just not up to my standard, sorry
    And yet, you seemed so very impressed by that same unrefined, dominant masculinity when actually presented with it.


    No need to be envious, baby. You have your skills too. Remember the sockdrawer?
    Certainly. And to paraphrase a wise woman, just because I'm capable of doing chores for you, doesnt mean you couldnt kiss my ass instead.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    ENFs are glib with emotional games. They can say that they're not necessarily playing because what theyve told the other person is not necessarily untrue, and just happens to coincide with what they believe to be the most comfortable explanation for both parties, and especially happens to be most comfortable for them.
    Haha. Damn you see right through us!!

    Edited to add: I've become more aware of this recently and I've been trying to NOT do that harmonizing crap, but it's almost like autopilot. That's why I love INFJs and INTJs. They force me to peel back layers of these kinds of pretense and figure out what I actually want from our interactions.

    As for Scientist's situation, you could argue that her ENFP man seems to have the upper hand in this situation. But then again, he might be feeling the same way about her sarcastic remarks and put-downs. The truth is somewhere in between.

  8. #78
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to go ahead and assume that the best sensitive person doesn't regard their sensitivity as a liability, but a skill. And I'm going to have to make that assumption because otherwise you have a world where INTJs are supposed to look after ENFP sensitivity.

    Presumably too one has to say the best blunt truth teller isn't one who find themselves constantly breaking down the people around him, but building them up. Otherwise you have a world where ENFPs have to remind INTJs of what the real truths are.

    And in fact in the best possible world INTJs do look after ENFP sensitivity and ENFPs do remind INTJs of what are the deeper truths. But neither can really do that to perfection without getting their own shit together first.

    Thus, it's a risk, but Scientist should be calling this guy out and asking WTF, and if she does, she is giving him the benefit of an assumption of maturity--that this guy is capable of being proud of what he is, and is able to speak the words. This may be a little difficult for him now, what with time having passed and some obvious mistakes having been made. And Scientist too is going to have to assume for herself some maturity too--that sometimes being harsh is more a protective move than truth-seeking. And this may be a little difficult too because the guy has already been a dick so why should she expose herself to more?

    The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

    The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.

  9. #79
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Im only quick to decide because as Ive gotten older my patience for games of any sort has become more and more finite. It's true that any possible number of things could have gone into making this guy behave the way that he did, but its that very murkiness that gives him an advantage even if she does confront him. Because no matter how you roll it, if she approaches him and asks him what happened her entire understanding will then hinge one how he explains his motivations. He could have had his feelings hurt. He could be seeing someone else. He could have gotten bored. Hes so in love hes afraid of losing himself. He doesnt want the guys at the office to know hes dating someone they work with. Any of these things could be given as an explanation and none could be true, but he now has defined what was a painful experience for the OP in whatever way best suits him currently, thus defining how they go forward.

    ENFs are glib with emotional games. They can say that they're not necessarily playing because what theyve told the other person is not necessarily untrue, and just happens to coincide with what they believe to be the most comfortable explanation for both parties, and especially happens to be most comfortable for them. This is not just in confrontation, but any interaction. Like you said, you like peace and harmony, you give the other person what they want so that peace and harmony is achieved. That, no matter how benign helpful or endearing, is manipulative.

    So the check, if any, should be based on her own understanding of the facts and if she wants to allow him a chance to explain why hes hurt her, then she should. She could not do anything and see what explanation he comes to her with. Or she can cut her losses and go on bout her business. But to reiterate for the trillionth time, whatever happens needs to be about her and what she wants and not him.
    Aww, but giving someone the benefit of the doubt has its perks. They can rise to the occasion. Even if it takes them two, three or four times. *looks hopeful at you*




    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    And yet, you seemed so very impressed by that same unrefined, dominant masculinity when actually presented with it.
    Seemed being the operative word here
    I thoroughly enjoy playing with you lot, and I appreciate your breed plenty, but I think that Jaguar would be disappointed if I would swoon over him after just this. I'm sure he has an entire bag of tricks I haven't seen yet. Can't wait




    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Certainly. And to paraphrase a wise woman, just because I'm capable of doing chores for you, doesnt mean you couldnt kiss my ass instead.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm going to have to go ahead and assume that the best sensitive person doesn't regard their sensitivity as a liability, but a skill. And I'm going to have to make that assumption because otherwise you have a world where INTJs are supposed to look after ENFP sensitivity.

    Presumably too one has to say the best blunt truth teller isn't one who find themselves constantly breaking down the people around him, but building them up. Otherwise you have a world where ENFPs have to remind INTJs of what the real truths are.

    And in fact in the best possible world INTJs do look after ENFP sensitivity and ENFPs do remind INTJs of what are the deeper truths. But neither can really do that to perfection without getting their own shit together first.

    Thus, it's a risk, but Scientist should be calling this guy out and asking WTF, and if she does, she is giving him the benefit of an assumption of maturity--that this guy is capable of being proud of what he is, and is able to speak the words. This may be a little difficult for him now, what with time having passed and some obvious mistakes having been made. And Scientist too is going to have to assume for herself some maturity too--that sometimes being harsh is more a protective move than truth-seeking. And this may be a little difficult too because the guy has already been a dick so why should she expose herself to more?

    The Fi choice: the stay inside oneself, take no action, stew over feelings and grow to really dislike the guy and his presence because even looking at him is upsetting.

    The Te choice: ask the guy WTF and see if either party can man up.



    Funny, for me it would be Fi demanding answers and giving the benefit of the doubt and figuring it out, and Te going 'who needs him, anyways!'
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  10. #80
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    there can be a slippery and seductive slope in dealing with NFs where the ideal amount of balance and compromise is "the point where the NF is happy and petted", because NTs dont make as big of a deal about their emotional needs so they end up getting sidelined.
    you totally disagree with this, economica?
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