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  1. #131
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Epiphanies are amazing, huh? Hopefully, this ENFP won't blacken your experience with the rest.
    No, not at all, however, I will be much more cautious when approached by one and question their intentions thoroughly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    (*PS: I used to be an active reader of Hugo's blog. He suffered from a narcissistic personality disorder, though the aforementioned description is not beyond an insecure ENFP's potential.)
    Thanks for the note. It still most definitely applies to this ENFP.

  2. #132
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Are you going to be able to forgive him at some point?

    Not as in let him get away with it, just as in... in.... I dunno, what does an INTJ do when they forgive? Let him be the idiot he wants to be just with no more access to your life?

    I agree, him pulling a kiss and run is low. Thus he's an ass with his own set of whatever's coming to him down the line.


    So... I dunno. How does one look after one's own feelings?

  3. #133
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post

    I'm INTJ...I have no feelings right?


    I mean-

    Wait, was that a trick question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post

    1. - The ENFP may simply be acting as his charming self, not acknowledging how the other party perceives this behavior.

    2. - Perhaps a personal explanation will permit him to understand how you truly feel. He might believe you weren't as serious as you currently are.\

    - Did he verbally state he was interested? If not, he could have assume the interaction was a non-committal flirt session.

    If you ever decide to speak with him, clarifying your position and gently asking for his is one method of ironing the tension.
    I'm answering posts a little out of order and out of date, but order is exasperating, and it can't be expected of me.

    1. So he would have you believe. If ever you see an ENFP unaware of how his words are being received, look again. Perhaps if he had not known you to have any feelings for him, past or present, this could be the case. But it is not so, and his words are calculated accordingly.

    2. As to whether he may not know just how strongly you feel, this is probably true in my opinion. But he's not totally clueless - not about this at least. You're a pragmatic person, what's the favorable outcome of you explaining yourself like this? At best, he would make attempts not to be flirty, which is apparently against his nature. I see why you're talking to us instead. If he saw this thread, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I'm sure he would feel great knowing that you've been putting in time to ask netbuddies questions about him for the past couple of weeks, Yoda knows I would, but you will get out of this situation more cleanly if you use the back door.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  4. #134
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I dunno, what does an INTJ do when they forgive? Let him be the idiot he wants to be just with no more access to your life?
    It's a good question in general. What does one do when one forgives? The offended party just tells the wrongdoer that the wrong he has doed is somehow less wrong, or at least stirs up less emotion at this point. Formulaically, it looks to me like the warm, fuzzy feeling one gets when he is apologized to (you and Scientist can ask me what warm, fuzzy feelings are like later, it's a whole 'nother topic) is sold to him for the price of the pain that the offender has caused him, or put another way, the apology is owed by the wrongdoer for the debt he has acquired through forcing the payment of pain from the offended party. It is usually an unfair trade, so why is it made? First of all, the illusion of the equality of return/payment comes from the added bonuses of self-righteousness and superiority that come with the territory of telling someone "I'll let you feel less bad about what you should feel bad about." On top of that, there are always the facts that what is done can not be undone and that there are advantages to creating or sustaining a positive relationship. In light of this, I wonder if one can be forgiven for what he has not apologized for or is even sorry about. Furthermore, if one is forgiven for something he is not sorry about, what would be the advantage or purpose of it?

    This post I just made reminds me of a Kalach post I read a few minutes ago where she squarely phrases a tangential though somewhat relevant question and follows it up by saying, "My J is tingling." If you wrote a post like this, Kalach, your J would get frostbite.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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  5. #135
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    In light of this, I wonder if one can be forgiven for what he has not apologized for or is even sorry about. Furthermore, if one is forgiven for something he is not sorry about, what would be the advantage or purpose of it?
    OIC, you are unfamiliar with just how unfamiliar INTJs are with forgiveness. This one is, in any case. I asked the question how does an INTJ forgive because it felt like such a strange question to formulate. I forget a lot of things, but I'm not sure it's that easy to forgive, certainly not forgiving before change has taken place. The peril of approaching the world with a judgment function and an unfamiliar set of feelings, I guess.

    The forgiveness in question isn't actually granted to the other person. No, it's to be granted by Scientist to herself. I imagine it's the equivalent of letting oneself feel sad and agreeing that the sadness can in time pass.


    It's either that or spread rumors he's gay.

  6. #136
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i'm very interested in this situation. as an infj i would feel far less defiant and more ashamed for being tossed around. Ni just takes shit like this way too seriously way too easy. it starts seeing all these connections with other situations and, as an infj, i would place my own feelings within the imaginings of others in horrible situations akin to how i think i feel.

    i can see how your method with Te would be more focused on what you need to do. but i don't think you have to turn it into an Ni sense of how this works, a finalized story, a single truth. you know that he is acting like a fucking prick, a petulant child, etc. that he seemed to be interested and then he totally withdrew. but i don't get any sense that there is any basis for assuming a specific reason or assigning a specific story. if you're going to learn from this, let it lie and see if you pick up more information, or, in a more intj Te way, go fucking find out. if approached directly and he acts like a bigger prick, it's not that he's not only not worth the time of day, it's that he's a fucking child who is obviously full of shit. those people exist. if you approach him directly and he can't handle it, maybe it will, in the long run, make him look himself in the mirror.

    the worst case scenario of feeling like you were duped is not the worst thing in the world. you can move on from that. there are other ways of dealing with problems than finding a single story that rids you of your negative feelings. sometimes i don't know, but i'm ok with that is better than letting Ni get polluted with future fears and projections.

    obviously all easier said than done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The forgiveness in question isn't actually granted to the other person. No, it's to be granted by Scientist to herself. I imagine it's the equivalent of letting oneself feel sad and agreeing that the sadness can in time pass.


    It's either that or spread rumors he's gay.


    you should get a talk show where you council people with their problems. or become a psychiatrist.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    No, not at all, however, I will be much more cautious when approached by one and question their intentions thoroughly.


    Thanks for the note. It still most definitely applies to this ENFP.
    Told you so!


  8. #138
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    1. So he would have you believe. If ever you see an ENFP unaware of how his words are being received, look again. Perhaps if he had not known you to have any feelings for him, past or present, this could be the case. But it is not so, and his words are calculated accordingly.

    2. As to whether he may not know just how strongly you feel, this is probably true in my opinion. But he's not totally clueless - not about this at least. You're a pragmatic person, what's the favorable outcome of you explaining yourself like this? At best, he would make attempts not to be flirty, which is apparently against his nature. I see why you're talking to us instead. If he saw this thread, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I'm sure he would feel great knowing that you've been putting in time to ask netbuddies questions about him for the past couple of weeks, Yoda knows I would, but you will get out of this situation more cleanly if you use the back door.
    Into -

    What has been highlighted here are the limitations of a third-party advice and a one-sided explanation. Human error (particularly when the mind's agitated) combined with missing data taints the reality one perceives. As good intentioned an individual may be, it is both faulty and presumptuous to assume too much about the other party's reasoning without their commentaries, or unbiased evidence. (There's an agreement with the_state_i_am_in.) For example, if a culturally diverse audience is asked to analyze a silent film, how many interpretations will exactly align with someone else's? Anything beyond a description of the character's actions is merely theoretical.

    Working with these limitations, I aimed to address the possibilities, while I cautiously refrained forming an attachment to either. This is where a third-party (online) contribution is restrained: they have not experienced the circumstances themselves. What if a key factor was overlooked by the speaker? Knowing someone has a history of mental illnesses, economic troubles, etc., per se, could tamper the entire situation and I left an open door for such a case.

    I anticipate situational clarity, personal development and lasting improvement in every applicable department. The said ENFP's input would be highly valuable: it could shine light upon my own ignorance or emphasize what I did correctly. This information holds the power to modify the weak links in my future investigations concerning similar elements. Only the ENFP himself knows precisely why he choose to act the way he did, and even a simplistic answer will reveal his subconscious core desires (ex: craving external validation to compensate for internal emptiness). It furthermore gives me a worthier substance than his superficial behavior (re: being a prick) and excuses (re: "self-righteousness and superiority") to base my decisions on.

    My top strategy rarely changes unless I am faced with drastic consequences. Because I desire consistently similar or better results, I will keep switching tactics until they are met. It implies that I may utilize a compassionate, yet longer, approach one day and a shorter, impersonal method another. Therefore, all these choices are reliant on the environment and the accessible facts; one new fact changes the next few advances. Sometimes the back door is the ideal or the worst. Just play the choices by ear.

    - L

    ==================================================


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I asked the question how does an INTJ forgive because it felt like such a strange question to formulate. I forget a lot of things, but I'm not sure it's that easy to forgive, certainly not forgiving before change has taken place. The peril of approaching the world with a judgment function and an unfamiliar set of feelings, I guess.

    The forgiveness in question isn't actually granted to the other person. No, it's to be granted by Scientist to herself. I imagine it's the equivalent of letting oneself feel sad and agreeing that the sadness can in time pass.
    <Disclaimer: IMO>

    Personally, I have adopted an "I live for tomorrow; yesterday can screw itself" policy. There's nothing that leaves a nasty taste like suddenly moving backwards from unpleasant memories. Instead I use my deepest sorrows to move forwards by establishing small approachable goals for myself that will inspire a fulfilling victory (and heal the wounds). Yes, it will hurt, it will be unfamiliar, it will frighten and it will seduce me to take the easiest way out. But I have a decision -- to let these feelings consume my mind or remain firm to my principles (productivity, integrity & making sound, fair judgments). If these emotions are painful enough for me to seriously consider the former, then it is a clear indication that I am pushed to my limits. Healing would now have a greater importance. Consequently, I would temporarily resign from those negative influences because my ability to function has been conceded. I'll come back as soon as I am able to reasonably maintain myself.

    I forgive quickly, though it is not a main focus, because changing how I 'surfacely' feel doesn't alter what has happened or the underlying root causes. I'd turn off the emotional noise as much as possible, to focus on how I can constructively regain what I have lost -- a peace of mind, self-control, etc. You're absolutely right that forgiveness is something to be granted by oneself. Jumping to forgiveness before you're ready only adds a burden to your discomfort and potentially, others.

    Taking action towards a compromise is what gives me the most satisfaction. I'm comforted knowing my skills are being put to use and my principles aren't being dissuaded by frivolous feelings. So it's important that everyone find their own method of healing since they have their personal set of priorities, emotional triggers, and values. There's no such thing as one 'right' method. And it's good theScientist has already uncovered hers.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  9. #139
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Told you so!

    haha...indeed you did! This particular ENFP is just extremely immature. Remember how I said he immediately asked me why I didnt text him? Later at work a buddy of his didn't respond to his text mssg and he said in a loud voice (most likely so I could overhear him) "he's not responding to my messages, so I wont respond to his. I can play that game too."

    I just wanted to stand up and tell him to his face that he should live by his own standards because he has ignored many of MY text messages!!! Urgh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Therefore, all these choices are reliant on the environment and the accessible facts; one new fact changes the next few advances. Sometimes the back door is the ideal or the worst. Just play the choices by ear.
    I work the same way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Personally, I have adopted an "I live for tomorrow; yesterday can screw itself" policy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's either that or spread rumors he's gay.
    I like how you think my friend...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Are you going to be able to forgive him at some point?

    Not as in let him get away with it, just as in... in.... I dunno, what does an INTJ do when they forgive? Let him be the idiot he wants to be just with no more access to your life?
    This is a tough one. I don't think I've forgiven yet. I usually directly confront the situation and that's how I'm able to achieve forgiveness or at least closure, whether I receive an apology or not. I don't hold grudges. I'm able to move on pretty quickly...although seeing him everyday at work might make that a little harder.

    I'm still debating whether to have a talk with him or not. I fear that having a talk with him will only validate him further because he will realize how much I really liked him. I'm also afraid of other consequences, like creating further tension at work OR him not recognizing anything wrong about his actions OR him thinking I'm some psycho chick.

    I would love to tell him the true reasons why he flirts are just to validate himself and to feed his ego...that it's completely unhealthy and potentially hurtful to others if taken too far. This to me would be the ideal closure, but there are a lot of risks involved so I'm not sure if it's the best choice. I'll assess that as time passes. Like Lethe said...play it by ear.

    Before having any conversation with him, though, I'd like to torture him for a bit by not feeding his ego.

  10. #140
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Taking action towards a compromise is what gives me the most satisfaction. I'm comforted knowing my skills are being put to use and my principles aren't being dissuaded by frivolous feelings. So it's important that everyone find their own method of healing since they have their personal set of priorities, emotional triggers, and values. There's no such thing as one 'right' method.
    I believe I agree with everything you said, quoted and unquoted. My vibe on this whole story is the ENFP is not wanting to cooperate with whatever plan comes up next. My impression--nay, assumption based on brief descriptions--is he has the flighty butterfly, my feelings reign supreme thing going. Reminds me of a guy I know, and a girl I had an unfortunate crush on. In similar circumstances there's not much I would feel I could do if the other parties weren't similarly coming to the table for discussion and cooperation. So, probably I'd be admitting that they have their reasons, and that puts them out of my loop, so what do I do for myself?

    This is either giving in to tertiary temptation or appropriate commitment to sitting with legitimate Fi for a time. Not sure which.

    And it's good theScientist has already uncovered hers.
    She's outing him? I approve. He fits the profile of a closet denier.

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