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  1. #11
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    For me, there is a foolhardy and impulsive attitude I often take that may be mistaken as ESFP but they seem to land on their feet way more than I do.

    I suppose it's for the same reason ENTJs and ESTPs get confused.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  2. #12
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I made this exact mistake when I was new at typology...the personal charisma made me think a close ESFP friend was ENFJ, before I really understood the subtleties of what each of those means. (ESFP charisma is more "hey buddy let's kick back and chill!", where ENFJ is more "I truly understand your feelings and consider you a valuable friend." Both are useful in different contexts; ENFJs just come off a lot more serious--though they certainly have their silly side when dry Ni humor comes out.)

    In any event, it's still easy to confuse any xNxJ type with its xSxP counterpart, for some reason--it's like xNxP and xSxJ are two poles in a certain dimension, and NJ and SP fall somewhere in between because they balance each other out. It can be hard to distinguish present-moment snap decision impulsiveness vs. decisive drive to make something happen in order to keep developing the plan. Similar outward appearance, very different motivation.

    As Edgar has noted, for instance, it can be difficult to distinguish ENTJ and ESTP upon first meeting them because ENTJs will imitate ESTP social behavior because they see it as strategically successful--they don't have that natural Se swagger but they see that it works and learn to fake it really well.

    I've also confused ISTP with INTJ in a number of people, usually very introverted coworkers who are obviously IxTx but I can't tell which kind because they're so focused on their work and rarely speak without a particular purpose. Again, INTP and ISTJ are both fairly easy to identify in most cases, but without sitting and having a good discussion about values and strategies, it can be tough to distinguish NJ/SP.

    I also mistook an INFJ that I didn't know very well for ISFP once, because his "I'm a super cool chill hippie musician!" image was really well-crafted. NJs will do this kind of weird shit when they feel that it's advantageous in the long run, and they seem to especially notice the abilities of SPs to adapt instinctively to their present-moment surroundings.

    NJs probably recognize their natural weaknesses in Se and the benefits that could be obtained from forcing themselves to learn it, so this creates type-reading confusion in a good number of cases.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #13
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I made this exact mistake when I was new at typology...the personal charisma made me think a close ESFP friend was ENFJ, before I really understood the subtleties of what each of those means. (ESFP charisma is more "hey buddy let's kick back and chill!", where ENFJ is more "I truly understand your feelings and consider you a valuable friend." Both are useful in different contexts; ENFJs just come off a lot more serious--though they certainly have their silly side when dry Ni humor comes out.)

    In any event, it's still easy to confuse any xNxJ type with its xSxP counterpart, for some reason--it's like xNxP and xSxJ are two poles in a certain dimension, and NJ and SP fall somewhere in between because they balance each other out. It can be hard to distinguish present-moment snap decision impulsiveness vs. decisive drive to make something happen in order to keep developing the plan. Similar outward appearance, very different motivation.

    As Edgar has noted, for instance, it can be difficult to distinguish ENTJ and ESTP upon first meeting them because ENTJs will imitate ESTP social behavior because they see it as strategically successful--they don't have that natural Se swagger but they see that it works and learn to fake it really well.

    I've also confused ISTP with INTJ in a number of people, usually very introverted coworkers who are obviously IxTx but I can't tell which kind because they're so focused on their work and rarely speak without a particular purpose. Again, INTP and ISTJ are both fairly easy to identify in most cases, but without sitting and having a good discussion about values and strategies, it can be tough to distinguish NJ/SP.

    I also mistook an INFJ that I didn't know very well for ISFP once, because his "I'm a super cool chill hippie musician!" image was really well-crafted. NJs will do this kind of weird shit when they feel that it's advantageous in the long run, and they seem to especially notice the abilities of SPs to adapt instinctively to their present-moment surroundings.

    NJs probably recognize their natural weaknesses in Se and the benefits that could be obtained from forcing themselves to learn it, so this creates type-reading confusion in a good number of cases.
    Sometimes first impressions can be misleading because certain types share general characteristics. For example, INTJs and ISTPs are both "utiliterain" and "directive" so under certain circumstance (say during office work) they can appear to act very simular.

    At that point you use various circumstantial evidence to narrow down your guess such as what does his work place look like, what are his dressing habbits, which non work related topics is he most likely to bring up, etc
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ... it's like xNxP and xSxJ are two poles in a certain dimension...Similar outward appearance, very different motivation.
    This whole concept is fascinating. It explains so many internal dilemmas for me. I feel so weird when ppl assume things abt my personality that are so not me, and get annoyed, like don't you know me well enough by now to see I'm not like that?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by invaderzim View Post
    Also, ESFP's are all over the place in social settings, jumping from person to person. ENFJs are smoother in their socializing. They focus on one person, make them feel comfortable and important, collect data, and politely excuse themselves to socialize with others.
    I do jump from person to person in social settings in the following scenario: if I know a couple of ppl fairly well or if I know one person very well.

    Only in meeting initially- like if I know no one in a large group of ppl- am I slower, collecting information. Its bc of group dynamics- I can pick up all the info I need if I know a few ppl by watching them interact with others. If I know no one, I must get a feel for the individual members of the collective group.

    "ENFJs often have a sense of style and aesthetics that looks more Artisan than Idealist. They also can get into that fun-loving place of experiencing and enjoying the physical moment. Both of these behaviors may be evidence of engaging their tertiary cognitive process of Se in a relief role." See ENFJ-ESTP

    I think that the "sense of style and aesthetics that looks more Artisan than Idealist" combined with the excitement in social settings and attention to ppl's Feelings initially gives ppl the idea I am ESFP, to be honest. I am fairly certain, bc ppl have always tell me as they get to know me, "You are full of surprises!" or, "You are so different than what I thought when I first met you!"

    I think that one of the guys you mention, the English dude, sounds ENFJ from the info you provided.

  6. #16
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    For me, there is a foolhardy and impulsive attitude I often take that may be mistaken as ESFP but they seem to land on their feet way more than I do.

    I suppose it's for the same reason ENTJs and ESTPs get confused.
    Exactly--it's just that carefree "live in the moment" impulsiveness and proactive decisiveness can look similar, especially when used by people who have the same I/E and T/F preferences.

    If you (general you now, not proto specifically) want to tell the difference, just scope out the person when s/he's hosting a social event. ENFJs will be going around systematically making sure everyone has everything thing he needs, and that every combination of new acquaintances upon which the idea for the party was probably based has actually become acquainted with each other--never miss an opportunity to create positive change and new directions for others.

    ESFPs will just be talking about whatever new and exciting things have grabbed their interest at the moment, or playing beer pong/guitar hero/whatever. Much more relaxed. ESFPs don't have an agenda the way ENJs do, but ENFJs are really good at looking like they don't have one even when they do. It's weird, but...you can tell with practice.

    Another way is to ask them about a broad moral cause or political issue that doesn't directly affect their lives. ENFJs are passionate about all kinds of great causes; ESFPs simply don't care if they can't see the relevance to their own lives. They'll answer passively, generally without saying much because they either don't care about politics at all or don't feel it should be discussed at a party, whereas the ENFJ will almost certainly pipe up and engage you readily--ESPECIALLY if your stance disagrees with his/hers. They'll always be duly respectful, though, and will likely remove themselves from the situation before getting into a heated argument--Fe knows well and good that that isn't the way to make friends, so if they actually call you out on something, you've probably really screwed up.

    By the way, why is it that I don't have to walk on eggshells with NFJs as much as with NFPs?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #17
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    I would think that an unhealthy ENFJ would seem quite like an ESFP in some respects. When a type is unhealthy they're basically just their dominant and tertiary functions, with the auxilliary being the dom's bitch. For ENFJ that would be FE SE with small Ni.

    I know from the way i acted in the past that I would often suggest that we go do something new and exciting and not plan just to kind of break out. Maybe that relates back to the tertiary function being referred to as the relief function was it?

    Anyway, if you were an ENFJ or an ESTP, you wouldn't have any trouble differentiating between the two. With FE and SE, we're pretty much the reason that VI exists. Once I've met a bunch of ppl of a certain personality type I have no trouble at all identifying another person as that personality type just by looking at the way that they establish eye contact or not and the repetoire of facial expressions they use. I'm not sure that I can quantify the differences between ENFJ and ESFP types but why don't you try throwing out some nonsense N humor and see how they react to it. An ESFP will strongly rebuff you with their down-to-earth practical view of how things are while the ENFJ will either be entertained or will silently nod to acknowledge the comment. Also ESFP's can be real bitches when it comes to their intolerance of people that don't live up to their standards. By bitches I mean that they are much more vocal of their disapproval.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    By the way, why is it that I don't have to walk on eggshells with NFJs as much as with NFPs?
    Fi is bound to take things more personally. NFJ's have Fe which is kind of a social fabric, the whole details of which NFJ's may not have so they back off unless your comment was an egregious violation of what they believe. I've encountered FP's falling to pieces and saying that my comment really "shut them down" when I've offended them. If I as an ENFJ, don't like what you have to say I just ignore you or the comment or avoid you or whatever. I don't need you mucking up my view of the world.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post

    Fi is bound to take things more personally. NFJ's have Fe which is kind of a social fabric, the whole details of which NFJ's may not have so they back off unless your comment was an egregious violation of what they believe. I've encountered FP's falling to pieces and saying that my comment really "shut them down" when I've offended them. If I as an ENFJ, don't like what you have to say I just ignore you or the comment or avoid you or whatever. I don't need you mucking up my view of the world.
    Yeah, I think we have a bit more of a "F**k you." attitude than Fi users do, at least that's true for me.

    In order to keep everything going smoothly Fe style I can nod politely when I disagree with you (or even when I think you are an idiot) but I know on the inside exactly what I believe and you are not going to change that easily (especially not with some outrageous shock tactics, they are just going to bounce off my Fe exterior) Unless of course you are really making a valid point and intriguing me enough to make me reconsider my deeply held beliefs.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Drezoryx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    In order to keep everything going smoothly Fe style I can nod politely when I disagree with you (or even when I think you are an idiot) but I know on the inside exactly what I believe and you are not going to change that easily (especially not with some outrageous shock tactics, they are just going to bounce off my Fe exterior) Unless of course you are really making a valid point and intriguing me enough to make me reconsider my deeply held beliefs.
    i can identify this behaviour but in the search of selfidentity these days i go around seeking the views of others to fill in info gaps and create a lifepath or vision for the longterm while not compromising the short term too. Kind of like a mastermind. its highly exhausting especially if you absorb everything. Slowly i'm judging the motivations and environment of others lives in which they speak to not get overwhelmed.

    its probably the level of satisfaction in life. the moment you get satisfied then the behavior you describe is what i do. but when thats not the case then re -evaluations take place in all directions of life. this itself can be an endless cycle pretty difficult to get out of on your own.

  10. #20
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    ENFJ's are excellent at the whole "incognito" bit, so we could come off as ESFP if so desired...or any other type, really.

    Edit: My INTP friend once typed me as ESFP. I'll never forgive him for taking me as a sensor. (lol) Just thought I'd add another arbitrary piece of evidence.
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

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