[MBTI General] Beethoven....an INFJ?

[Killjoy]

He was an ISFP..
He had zero Fe.. he was rude and obnoxious.
He was an idiot savant.

He was not an INFJ.

How do you figure ISFP? Because Keirsey says so? And I'd hesitate in asserting Beethoven was a mere "Idiot savant". He may have been a prick (and I'm certain much of that was due to his gradual hearing loss, jilted love affairs, perhaps manic depression, money woes and who knows what else).

Mozart would more likely deserve Idiot savant label (though I believe that would be incorrect, as well)

By the way, you underestimate just how harsh and unforgiving Fe can be when it's turned ugly.

 

[Arclight]

How do you figure ISFP? Because Keirsey says so? And I'd hesitate in asserting Beethoven was a mere "Idiot savant". He may have been a prick (and I'm certain much of that was due to his gradual hearing loss, jilted love affairs, perhaps manic depression, money woes and who knows what else).

Mozart would more likely deserve Idiot savant label (though I believe that would be incorrect, as well)

By the way, you underestimate just how harsh and unforgiving Fe can be when it's turned ugly.

Well I do find it kind of funny how no one on these sites seems to realize that SP's are called the "Artists" for a reason..
If every artist is always classified as an NF by people, then why even bother following a system if you are going to disregard it.?
NF= Idealist
SP=Artist

And it was Myers and Briggs who classified SP as the artists not just Keirsey.

It was Keirsey who stated that N is a "power" and most N's love to eat that up. So do we pick and choose what suits us and what we want to hear?

Keirsey is a professional.. we are amateurs. so it's likely he knows what he is talking about .. don't ya think???

And... I assure after dating an INFJ for over a year and being married to an ESFJ for 6 years, That I am well aware how "harsh" and "unforgiven" Fe can be.
So please don't tell me what I underestimate, if you don't mind.:hi:

I state my opinion and that is all it is.. That is all anything, anyone on this site says is. Opinion.
You can either agree or not.. Isn't that a wonderful thing?

 

[Tofu562]

I don't know much about beethoven apart from his music, but I don't get an INFJ vibe from him. His music (at least in my opinion), in terms of theory, adheres to form and pattern, which I think an INFJ would, conversely, stray from. It also seems methodical, and I might also (hesitantly) add, mathematical - makings of a thinker, I would say.

I also remember something about beethoven going apeshit about adopting his nephew against his will or something, which also seems somewhat un-INFJ like...

 

[ragashree]

I would love to think Beethoven is an INFJ, but for all my experience with studying his life and music, i have to say that he isn't. He is one of my favorite composers and i have analyzed more scores of his than i can count (i have a doctorate in music) He does seem Ni dominant, but the man had close to zero Fe. He offended people a lot, and not because he was angry, but just had no patience for human nonsense. The emotional world is also very deeply Fi imo. I have to stand by my original position that he is an INTJ. People often underestimate just how passionate an INTJ can be.

I agree entirely: my first thought when I saw this thread was: Yes Ni dominance, no way he's INFJ. High-Fi INTJ covers his combined emotional expressiveness and difficulties with social interaction rather well, however.

 

[Kullervo]

I agree entirely: my first thought when I saw this thread was: Yes Ni dominance, no way he's INFJ. High-Fi INTJ covers his combined emotional expressiveness and difficulties with social interaction rather well, however.

I saw this thread and as I'm listening to a Beethoven Overture at the moment (Coriolan) I thought about his type and decided to necro.

Firstly, he is a blatant cp6, and probably a triple reactive. (You know one when you see one.) I consider a Fe type very unlikely: my reasons have been stated by other posters already so I won't repeat them. The "argument" about forms/structures earlier tweaks a nerve however. It shows ignorance of Beethoven's music and the stylistic vision of composers before 1900. I agree with the consensus here about INTJ as a type.

 

[Studmuffin23]

Based on what I've read about Beethoven's life, I would say absolutely he was INFJ.

 

[benedict]

I know enough about Beethoven's life to know that he certainly had a number of key traits of an ENTJ.

• Tendency towards dogmatic belief -note his big obsession with fidelity
• Obsessive over big projects frequently leading to neglect of his health and hygiene
• A very noted tendency to control people -trying to control his brother's life, gaining custody of his brother's son away from the son's own mother(!)
• Good with money -I note this as composers notably struggled but Beethoven was better than certain of his contemporaries (most notably Mozart)
• Tendency towards anger when people or situations didn't agree with his worldview
• Inability or refusal to understand people's feelings (see the gaining custody again -therefore indicative of a weak sense of 'Feeling')

By all means take me up on any of these as I'd be interested to read different opinions.

 

[Annaifiwas]

I would love to think Beethoven is an INFJ, but for all my experience with studying his life and music, i have to say that he isn't. He is one of my favorite composers and i have analyzed more scores of his than i can count (i have a doctorate in music) He does seem Ni dominant, but the man had close to zero Fe. He offended people a lot, and not because he was angry, but just had no patience for human nonsense. The emotional world is also very deeply Fi imo. I have to stand by my original position that he is an INTJ. People often underestimate just how passionate an INTJ can be.

There is plenty more detail that can be gone into here, but i may just link to a thread at INTPcentral that went through much of this.

Yeah, I'm more for INTJ as well.

 

[Coriolis]

Mozart was an ISFP; Beethoven was not.

xNTx

Had a discussion with [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] about Beethoven and how his compositions often reveal him introducing musical figures (harmony, melody, counterpoints, et al), then proceeding to deconstruct and reconstruct them throughout the course of a piece. (Forgive me as I am an amateur about music theory.) I think he approached composition of music with the mind of a sonic architect.

Good examples are the second movements of the ninth and seventh symphonies.

Watch the visual representation below and you'll understand what I'm talking about. I'm a classical noob, but from my perspective, he was the last great of the classical era and the first great of the romantic era. Relatively straightforward with his music, much of which would seem redundant ("elegant redundancy" describes a lot of music from the classical era--circa 1750s-1820s), but for the way he progressed through melodies and harmonies and made them come to life (foreshadowing the Romantic composers' emphasis on virtuosity).

Introducing and then deconstructing and reconstructing musical themes was commonplace in the classical period. Beethoven's innovations, as I understand it, were more in his harmonic progressions, which were often quite unlike those before him. For sheer virtuosity, Mozart would give him a run for his money, though the two styles were quite distinct.

As for types, I could see INFJ for Beethoven, but not ISFP for Mozart. Seems more ENTP to me. He was outrageously clever, playful, and often irreverent.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Mozart was an ISFP; Beethoven was not.

xNTx

Had a discussion with [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] about Beethoven and how his compositions often reveal him introducing musical figures (harmony, melody, counterpoints, et al), then proceeding to deconstruct and reconstruct them throughout the course of a piece. (Forgive me as I am an amateur about music theory.) I think he approached composition of music with the mind of a sonic architect.

Good examples are the second movements of the ninth and seventh symphonies.

Watch the visual representation below and you'll understand what I'm talking about. I'm a classical noob, but from my perspective, he was the last great of the classical era and the first great of the romantic era. Relatively straightforward with his music, much of which would seem redundant ("elegant redundancy" describes a lot of music from the classical era--circa 1750s-1820s), but for the way he progressed through melodies and harmonies and made them come to life (foreshadowing the Romantic composers' emphasis on virtuosity).

Piano concerto No. 5 makes me wonder about INFJ though

People like to "blame" pieces like Grosse Fugue on his deafness. I think he knew perfectly well how they would sound

No surprise it was Stravinsky's favorite piece of music.

I think [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION]'s approach to divine type through: the music itself, is better.

Many replies have referenced Beethoven's personality and emotional or erratic actions: Examination of hair from his body showed extremely high levels of lead. Chronic lead poisoning did not necessarily cause his death but it certainly affected his behaviour.

From young adulthood on, Beethoven went to a spa and drank mineral water that contained lead. He also drank much wine that contained lead used to sweeten the taste and mask sour flavour. Many of his medications for abdominal issues, syphilis... contained lead acetate.

Beethoven's Lead Poisoning

Thus, it may be difficult to properly ascertain type from a personality so affected by other factors.