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[NF] Rosetta1: Fi vs Tertiary Fe

sculpting

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Here is the first Fi vs Fe thread. I would like to present the scenario and then have the Fi users and Fe users not attack one another.

Rather I would like both to discuss what they meant to convey and those on the perceiving end to discuss what they perceived on their end. Each situation will have both sides. Think of Fi/Fe as two languages where we just need to prepare a set of tools to translate. These situations are embarrassing as I don’t mean to do this stuff, but I do and I am trying to self calibrate so I will sacrifice myself for the topic.

Please add your interpretations of how you would perceive each situation as an:

1) Fi user receiving these signals
2) Fe user receiving these signals
3) Fi user sending these signals


Please add your scenarios that illustrate this same Fi vs Tert Fe theme so we can each comment on what we see from our different perspectives.

Scenario 1: I very much liked an ENTP boy. The ENTP was very flirty, friendly, sweet, touchy, affectionate. He was very into me in a sexual way. He acted like we had a very intense emotional bond and an intense connection when he saw me. He looked like he loved me. However when not around he would not call or email except very sporadically.

I'll provide an answer for this one:
Fi saw love-unicorn style
Tertiary Fe honestly cares but in a short term emo way, not an in depth long term connectivity. Fe was like WTF when I hit it with intense Fi emo rays. He was very confused and wanted a hook up where I thought he really had emo feelings for me.


Scenario 2:
A tert Fe user on this site started joking with me and playing and being very flirty and fun. I saw Fi and responded and wrote a crazy, silly poem with lots of Fi. The person quickly withdrew.

Fi Answer: Fi saw emo intimacy and assumed Fi connectivity.

Fe response:They were playing with Fe as a social interactive tool to have fun. My Fi response was too intense, too emo, too fast and ended up likely intruding onto their personal space and they quickly withdrew.


Scenario 3:
Again almost exact of scenario 2, but on a dating site rather than here. I have also done this in real life several times.

We can cheat a bit as I have Two threads I started from both directions of this issue trying to understand what was happening:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/18472-entps-love-emo-connectivity.html

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/17043-emotional-intimacy-boundaries.html
 

sculpting

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do you guys get the point of this? If of no value I shall retire now as compiling this crap is a pain in the ass. :)
 

Amargith

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Most infamous scenario for me:

While having a debate with an ENTP you get to a point where they want to convince you with logic about something that you feel strongly about. You then feel oppressed and forced, not to mention trapped in their perceived webs of so-called logic, paranoia and judgements/demands for surrender to them being right. You then lash out, telling them to back off, respect your space and your freedom to think this way. Repeat cycle till infinity.

Fi-reaction: why are you judging the way i feel about something that is important to me and insisting that I back it up with logic? And when I do try to back it up with logic, why do you insist on misunderstanding what I say, twisting my words, and intuiting thoughts I supposedly according to you had but aren't willing to share for some obscure reason? And what's with the judgement and conclusion that I am a bad person for being the way I am? This feels like mental rape, btw, especially when the ENTP does not take the hint to back off and leave me alone when I'm no longer able to cope and as such drives me to hysteria instead.

Fe-reaction/intent: (from what I've been told) I'm merely interested as to why you would say such a thing when my logic seems to not support that. Did i miss something? Are you seeing something I didn't? And what is that then? I ask guided questions (misunderstood as judgement by Fi) to get to that information quickly and fill in the gaps. And when you tell me something that doesn't make sense to me, I'll quickly assess it so I can gain better insight into what it was you meant. Which is where I start intuiting your 'logic' behind things. I never did judge you. Mental rape, really???


Scenario 2:

Same thing. Argument, this time about feelings. ENTP tells you something about their past. You ask for a clarification as to how it made them feel, so you can relate more to them, get a feel for what they're communicating. They wonder what you're talking about, as it's just facts that they're relating. You press on, since something personal like that has to have some meaning to them and there must be some reason why they tell you this now. Or, you just are trying to ask more questions as you cannot really feel where they are coming from. They seem to get aggrevated and defensive. You ask em why they are aggrevated or defensive. Which is followed by a flat out denial of those emotions. You then turn to intuition to figure out why it could be that they are denying those emotions as you clearly saw them. Often the result is a lashing out of the ENTP and a recoiling of the ENFP, licking their wounds. Time usually tells whether or not the ENFP was right about the denial or not, ime.

Fi-reaction: Why would he open up to me and then suddenly block me emotionally? And the feelings he's projecting aren't matching up with what he's told me..what's up with that? Lemme ask...mmm no, he seems to insist I'm wrong. Perhaps he's scared of telling me? Maybe there's something I can do to reassure him/her? I *know* there must be more to this story, but he may not see it himself? Maybe I can help...Wow, sorry for offering!


Fe-reaction (again, from what I've been told and interpreted) When I say that I have no feelings towards this, I mean it. I'm not lying, nor am i hiding stuff. I just get aggrevated with you constantly verifying this! If you cannot accept my word on the fact that there's nothing there, then f** off. Stop projecting your own feelings on me! I dunno why you are focussing on this part of that story anyways. This feels like emotional rape to me, as I don't like having people dig for my feelings. That's private.


Basically...we're the same, but in reverse. Ironically, we should be able to relate to each other just fine, because of this. Afterall, we know what it's like when we're the one in the vulnerable position. Yet somehow we don't seem to be able to undo this misunderstanding :)
 

nightning

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Get? Perhaps... :huh: Why don't I try answering and you tell me whether it's what you were looking for?

Scenario 1: I very much liked an ENTP boy. The ENTP was very flirty, friendly, sweet, touchy, affectionate. He was very into me in a sexual way. He acted like we had a very intense emotional bond and an intense connection when he saw me. He looked like he loved me. However when not around he would not call or email except very sporadically.

My first impulse was to dissect your statements (which is Ti? I'll filter it). When you say ENTP was flirty, friendly... my impression is to question whether what you've said was reality or an act. Fe doesn't trust the outer signs too much because it in itself does a lot of mirroring. Your last statement about inconsistency matches the first impression. So Fe say this is not truly love, just affection.

Scenario 2:
A tert Fe user on this site started joking with me and playing and being very flirty and fun. I saw Fi and responded and wrote a crazy, silly poem with lots of Fi. The person quickly withdrew.

I'm assuming you mean ENTP for tertiary Fe users? Playful joking is merely Ne's way of having fun. An Fe spur of the moment burst of emotion thing is very common. What you saw as Fi wasn't Fi. Wasn't meant to be taken seriously at all. So when you throw in lots of emotion... it was overload. Hence withdrawal.

Scenario 3:
Again almost exact of scenario 2, but on a dating site rather than here. I have also done this in real life several times.

We can cheat a bit as I have Two threads I started from both directions of this issue trying to understand what was happening:
*confused* What's the difference between 2 & 3 in the threads?

Fe is not all or none, although ENTPs with tertiary Fe might at time feel it's all or none. If you're dealing with a relationship, for me playfulness is like testing the water. Gradually ramping up intensity is probably easier to handle than a full-on petal to the metal approach. A sudden withdrawal just means I've decided this isn't going to work out and get out to save both of us time. I guess you can say Fe does a lot of assumption testing. The Ni influenced Fe anyhow.
 

sculpting

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No, sorry, these were my examples, but up in the "wary of Fe thread" the idea was to take other examples where Fi and Fe don't communicate effectively and look at it from both sides to determine why the miscommunication occurs.

Not sure if this is effective though.
 

Tallulah

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Wow, from Amargith's examples (and I would be the Fe user in this scenario), I can really see that I don't really naturally "get" Fi at all. I mean, when you explain it, I see the intent, and it makes sense, but it would just never occur to me to think that way. And yeah, I would get really irritated, really quickly at being probed about my emotions. :smile:
 

Amargith

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Wow, from Amargith's examples (and I would be the Fe user in this scenario), I can really see that I don't really naturally "get" Fi at all. I mean, when you explain it, I see the intent, and it makes sense, but it would just never occur to me to think that way. And yeah, I would get really irritated, really quickly at being probed about my emotions. :smile:

Hehe, yeah it can get pretty intrusive, I admit. The thing is, we aint aware of it..for us this is something that we do naturally and constantly on superficial level, though when given a chance we can go a lot deeper. I (think I) get how it feels, as I have the same with you guys when you go passionately into a debate. And I'd imagine it feeling great for you guys, as it is your element. The same is true for us. I relish the idea of digging into someone's psyche, getting to know them, going 'spelonking' with them. And some people will even ask me to do this, knowing what it entails. I love that. I try to avoid doing it without permission as I know many don't feel comfortable with it, but sometimes I just don't notice that I'm doing it :blush:
 

nightning

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No, sorry, these were my examples, but up in the "wary of Fe thread" the idea was to take other examples where Fi and Fe don't communicate effectively and look at it from both sides to determine why the miscommunication occurs.

Not sure if this is effective though.

In that case I'll have to spend some time thinking about it. Real life example doesn't come readily to me lol.
 

entropie

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Scenario 1: I very much liked an ENTP boy. The ENTP was very flirty, friendly, sweet, touchy, affectionate. He was very into me in a sexual way. He acted like we had a very intense emotional bond and an intense connection when he saw me. He looked like he loved me. However when not around he would not call or email except very sporadically.

I wouldnt think about it that way. What comes into play with tert-Fe is Introverted Thinking aswell. I couldnt develop for example emotions for a girl, who isnt at my level when it comes to thinking matters.

Meaning, if I had a wife, who stays at home allday caring for the kids and only waiting for me to call her, I would think that she can grow dependant on me, lacking her own personal evolution, like forgetting her own dreams of what to accomplish in life.

In connection with Introverted Thinking then, it is that you trust your wife and know where your home is. But you go out in this world and deal with matters besides from thinking about her all the time, to make money and fullfill your dreams.

But the foundation on which that rests and if all the world would brake together around you, would still be your love. And she will be there often in sporadic moments on a day, when you think of her, got reminded of her or see her in things.

If you see her again then, you are doubly happy to have her.

------------------

I cant really connect only Fi or only Fe with love matters. They play a part in a gigantic web that love is made of, but on their own they dont say much.

What they say for me is: Fe is introspection, while Fi is intraspection. And they often mix with the perceiving function, making for example ENFPs looking very extrovert in their Ethics
 

OrangeAppled

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Okay, these are some really basic examples, slightly exaggerated :D. It some way or another, I have had small clashes with Fe along these lines.

-------------

Fe: How have you been?
Fi: Terrible. Everything is going wrong (expounds on situation). How have you been?
Fe: Errr, um, I'm sorry....well, I am sure things will get better for you... I am doing okay. The weather has been really hot though. Hey, I just saw that new movie, have you seen it?
Fi: No, I can't enjoy anything because I feel so bad. The world is a blackhole, sucking my soul out.
Fe: It's a funny movie. It will cheer you up! Well, hey, I gotta go now. Hope you feel better soon.
(Fe walks away feeling bad for their friend, but annoyed to be burdened with their problems. Fi walks away feeling better about their life after venting, but annoyed that Fe brushed them off and won't open up).

-------------

Fe: You should call so-and-so because they've been depressed.
Fi: I don't like them, and I don't care. Besides, they never call me and I've been depressed too.
Fe: I know, but it would just be nice.
Fi: Why should I be nice to someone I don't care about? You don't like so-and-so either.
Fe: Because it's polite, and the right thing to do.
Fi: That's fake! I hate phony politeness. The right thing is to show genuine concern only. It's patronizing to pity people.
(Fi never calls. Fi has no friends and feels ignored. Fe calls everyone. Everyone likes Fe. Fe talks behind their back).
 

Tallulah

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Hehe, yeah it can get pretty intrusive, I admit. The thing is, we aint aware of it..for us this is something that we do naturally and constantly on superficial level, though when given a chance we can go a lot deeper. I (think I) get how it feels, as I have the same with you guys when you go passionately into a debate. And I'd imagine it feeling great for you guys, as it is your element. The same is true for us. I relish the idea of digging into someone's psyche, getting to know them, going 'spelonking' with them. And some people will even ask me to do this, knowing what it entails. I love that. I try to avoid doing it without permission as I know many don't feel comfortable with it, but sometimes I just don't notice that I'm doing it :blush:

Yeah, with one of my ENFP friends, she'll do that to me, but I have to be in the mood for it. Sometimes I appreciate her getting me to talk about what's bothering me, and other times, I will avoid talking to her if I know she's going to go digging. It's too exhausting, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 

Amargith

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Yeah, with one of my ENFP friends, she'll do that to me, but I have to be in the mood for it. Sometimes I appreciate her getting me to talk about what's bothering me, and other times, I will avoid talking to her if I know she's going to go digging. It's too exhausting, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I can see how it is incredibly draining for people who don't make this into their hobby. And once again, the same goes for us with debates. It's fun, occasionally, but we lack your stamina :)
 

Tallulah

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I can see how it is incredibly draining for people who don't make this into their hobby. And once again, the same goes for us with debates. It's fun, occasionally, but we lack your stamina :)

Oh, I hear ya. I don't really have much stamina for debating anymore. I used to think it was fun as a teen, and I quickly learned that it's irritating to people. Not to mention, I think it's much better to try and understand each other. But I can definitely see how our natural states clash without the intent to clash!
 

Amargith

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Any ideas yet as how to handle it and devise that 'key'? *remains hopeful*
 

Tallulah

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Any ideas yet as how to handle it and devise that 'key'? *remains hopeful*

Awareness, I think. I think, for instance, you and I could probably understand each other if we were hanging out, because we'd be aware of what's causing the misunderstanding, if one developed. Where the problems are are when one demands or insists that the other "understand meeeeeeeee," but not try to understand, themselves. As long as I know the other person's trying to understand, I can VERY easily meet them in the middle. Often more than the middle.
 

Amargith

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Any ideas as how to facilitate this attitude in your conversational partner? For instance, how can I communicate to an NTP that I *am* in fact trying to understand where he's coming from and that I do get what he/she is saying?
 

proteanmix

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This are very good examples. I've had these happen to me and I'll tell you the exact points where I think communication breaks down.

Fe: How have you been?
Fi: Terrible. Everything is going wrong (expounds on situation). How have you been?
Fe: Errr, um, I'm sorry....well, I am sure things will get better for you... I am doing okay. The weather has been really hot though. Hey, I just saw that new movie, have you seen it?
Fi: No, I can't enjoy anything because I feel so bad. The world is a blackhole, sucking my soul out.
:footballreferee:
LOL, I've stopped asking people how they're doing for just this reason, it's like the most dangerous question in the English language. You have no clue how people will respond, they may tell you the truth (and then you have to deal with it) or they may just say "Great!" and keep moving.

This morning the receptionist asked me how was my weekend when I got off the elevator and I said "tolerable" and winked and he laughed and said I feel ya. I said nothing else and kept walking, but it was gravy. I think the tepid tolerable was mitigated against with the jovial wink. I felt like I was being honest about my weekend, while also signaling that I'm OK though. Maybe Fe in your example there was no extra-indicator that although things are rough you feel better. Fe sometimes has this reflex to Make It Better, NOW! without maybe letting people feel it thoroughly. That may not make sense. Bad feeling is bad, not bad feeling may be OK later on once the bad feeling has been digested a la caterpillar to butterfly.

Also there is the sense that when someone pours out like that on such a light push that a Fe user may have to fix the emotions quickly. And I'm not going to lie, when people have done that to me and depending if I know their track record or not and if it they typically do this woe is me! stuff I tend to beat a hasty retreat because I don't want to get sucked in because I don't have the emotional resources to deal with it.

Fe: It's a funny movie. It will cheer you up! Well, hey, I gotta go now. Hope you feel better soon.
(Fe walks away feeling bad for their friend, but annoyed to be burdened with their problems. Fi walks away feeling better about their life after venting, but annoyed that Fe brushed them off and won't open up).

I wouldn't say it was annoyance and burden, but maybe not feeling they could do anything about it. When someone drops a bomb on you like that it takes time to move them into another emotional frame of mind, if they even want to be moved. Would it make a difference if the Fe had said "hope you feel better soon...maybe we'll talk later about it?" But then I think about what I said earlier, is it necessarily my responsibility to make someone else feel better when they say things like that? I don't have this instant profundity wand to say just the right thing to indicate how much I'm invested (or if there should even be an investment). I mean, I'll do what I can but should I have a heart-to-heart right then and there?

I think about the appropriateness of when and how and what to say and if I'm standing in the xerox room and someone says that and I know I've got to get to a meeting soon I'll do what I can then but I'm not sure how much good it would be. I'd also think is this person being dramatic because I tend to make statements like that for obviously overblown dramatic effect, not typically as any true indicator of my inner emotional state.

Fe: You should call so-and-so because they've been depressed.
Fi: I don't like them, and I don't care. Besides, they never call me and I've been depressed too.
Fe: I know, but it would just be nice.
Fi: Why should I be nice to someone I don't care about? You don't like so-and-so either.
Fe: Because it's polite, and the right thing to do.

If I don't like someone, other than basic politeness and professionalism I'd show simply because you're another human, I'm not going to actively make you think I like you.

Fi: That's fake! I hate phony politeness. The right thing is to show genuine concern only. It's patronizing to pity people.
(Fi never calls. Fi has no friends and feels ignored. Fe calls everyone. Everyone likes Fe. Fe talks behind their back).

I agree with you, I wouldn't make someone believe something directly contradictory to how I really feel. Well, I can see situations where that would be the smartest but not necessarily genuine case, but not in a casual relationship like that. And you're right, people like people who like them even if they pretend to. Does it help to think how many wars pretend liking have stopped from happening? Sometimes the veneer of civility is enough.
 

Tallulah

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Any ideas as how to facilitate this attitude in your conversational partner? For instance, how can I communicate to an NTP that I *am* in fact trying to understand where he's coming from and that I do get what he/she is saying?

I think just say it like you explained it in your examples, if y'all are sitting down talking about it. I thought you explained it really well. Of course, it does help to have MBTI as a framework. And just explain that the Fi spelunking comes as naturally to you as the Ti digging comes to us, and that you're okay with being told to back off if it gets uncomfortable. The other person should get the hint that they should also be okay with being told to back off. :smile:
 

entropie

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I am sorry but I am still not with you all on that topic.

Fe: How have you been?
Fi: Terrible. Everything is going wrong (expounds on situation). How have you been?
Fe: Errr, um, I'm sorry....well, I am sure things will get better for you... I am doing okay. The weather has been really hot though. Hey, I just saw that new movie, have you seen it?
Fi: No, I can't enjoy anything because I feel so bad. The world is a blackhole, sucking my soul out.

That way of communicating would be so retarded, I am not even sure it could happen in reality.

I can perfectly stand to talk to someone, who has problems and my gf, who is dominant Fe even does it for a living.

I think, what you all lack here is the right psychological distance to the problem or a better strategy on how to approach such a situation. If I myself am feeling bad, I dont ask people if I can help them. Then I see to it that I get help. But if someone else is feeling bad and I am feeling good. He couldnt influence me in that a great way that I feel bad afterwards. Cause I am on the higher ground in the discussion and I am the one that guy would rely on, therefore I would try to behave like that.

I think the most misconceptions about ones own emotions derive from the fact that one is not conciously able to recognize he is feeling bad. And thats a thing that goes into the direction of what Fe really means in my opinion.
 

nightning

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I wouldn't say it was annoyance and burden, but maybe not feeling they could do anything about it. When someone drops a bomb on you like that it takes time to move them into another emotional frame of mind, if they even want to be moved. Would it make a difference if the Fe had said "hope you feel better soon...maybe we'll talk later about it?" But then I think about what I said earlier, is it necessarily my responsibility to make someone else feel better when they say things like that? I don't have this instant profundity wand to say just the right thing to indicate how much I'm invested (or if there should even be an investment). I mean, I'll do what I can but should I have a heart-to-heart right then and there?

I think about the appropriateness of when and how and what to say and if I'm standing in the xerox room and someone says that and I know I've got to get to a meeting soon I'll do what I can then but I'm not sure how much good it would be. I'd also think is this person being dramatic because I tend to make statements like that for obviously overblown dramatic effect, not typically as any true indicator of my inner emotional state.
Yes and also from the Fe (or perhaps J) point of view, my first assumption when people tell me they're feeling bad is that they want me to help fix it... or at least that's the expectation Fe hears behind the words. Now the big question is what exactly can I do? I can hear you out sure, but that in my mind doesn't solve anything. Perhaps it's the directness of J wanting to cut through it all to fix something. Instead INFPs tend to just talk and talk with the expectation and doesn't seem to "do anything". Rather frustrating on my part. So after awhile I tend to just get out of these conversations as quickly as possible. Not because I don't want to help, but I couldn't see how I could help.
 
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