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  1. #11
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Hehe, yeah it can get pretty intrusive, I admit. The thing is, we aint aware of it..for us this is something that we do naturally and constantly on superficial level, though when given a chance we can go a lot deeper. I (think I) get how it feels, as I have the same with you guys when you go passionately into a debate. And I'd imagine it feeling great for you guys, as it is your element. The same is true for us. I relish the idea of digging into someone's psyche, getting to know them, going 'spelonking' with them. And some people will even ask me to do this, knowing what it entails. I love that. I try to avoid doing it without permission as I know many don't feel comfortable with it, but sometimes I just don't notice that I'm doing it
    Yeah, with one of my ENFP friends, she'll do that to me, but I have to be in the mood for it. Sometimes I appreciate her getting me to talk about what's bothering me, and other times, I will avoid talking to her if I know she's going to go digging. It's too exhausting, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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  2. #12
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, with one of my ENFP friends, she'll do that to me, but I have to be in the mood for it. Sometimes I appreciate her getting me to talk about what's bothering me, and other times, I will avoid talking to her if I know she's going to go digging. It's too exhausting, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
    I can see how it is incredibly draining for people who don't make this into their hobby. And once again, the same goes for us with debates. It's fun, occasionally, but we lack your stamina
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  3. #13
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I can see how it is incredibly draining for people who don't make this into their hobby. And once again, the same goes for us with debates. It's fun, occasionally, but we lack your stamina
    Oh, I hear ya. I don't really have much stamina for debating anymore. I used to think it was fun as a teen, and I quickly learned that it's irritating to people. Not to mention, I think it's much better to try and understand each other. But I can definitely see how our natural states clash without the intent to clash!
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  4. #14
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Any ideas yet as how to handle it and devise that 'key'? *remains hopeful*
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  5. #15
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Any ideas yet as how to handle it and devise that 'key'? *remains hopeful*
    Awareness, I think. I think, for instance, you and I could probably understand each other if we were hanging out, because we'd be aware of what's causing the misunderstanding, if one developed. Where the problems are are when one demands or insists that the other "understand meeeeeeeee," but not try to understand, themselves. As long as I know the other person's trying to understand, I can VERY easily meet them in the middle. Often more than the middle.
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  6. #16
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Any ideas as how to facilitate this attitude in your conversational partner? For instance, how can I communicate to an NTP that I *am* in fact trying to understand where he's coming from and that I do get what he/she is saying?
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  7. #17
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    This are very good examples. I've had these happen to me and I'll tell you the exact points where I think communication breaks down.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Fe: How have you been?
    Fi: Terrible. Everything is going wrong (expounds on situation). How have you been?
    Fe: Errr, um, I'm sorry....well, I am sure things will get better for you... I am doing okay. The weather has been really hot though. Hey, I just saw that new movie, have you seen it?
    Fi: No, I can't enjoy anything because I feel so bad. The world is a blackhole, sucking my soul out.
    :footballreferee:
    LOL, I've stopped asking people how they're doing for just this reason, it's like the most dangerous question in the English language. You have no clue how people will respond, they may tell you the truth (and then you have to deal with it) or they may just say "Great!" and keep moving.

    This morning the receptionist asked me how was my weekend when I got off the elevator and I said "tolerable" and winked and he laughed and said I feel ya. I said nothing else and kept walking, but it was gravy. I think the tepid tolerable was mitigated against with the jovial wink. I felt like I was being honest about my weekend, while also signaling that I'm OK though. Maybe Fe in your example there was no extra-indicator that although things are rough you feel better. Fe sometimes has this reflex to Make It Better, NOW! without maybe letting people feel it thoroughly. That may not make sense. Bad feeling is bad, not bad feeling may be OK later on once the bad feeling has been digested a la caterpillar to butterfly.

    Also there is the sense that when someone pours out like that on such a light push that a Fe user may have to fix the emotions quickly. And I'm not going to lie, when people have done that to me and depending if I know their track record or not and if it they typically do this woe is me! stuff I tend to beat a hasty retreat because I don't want to get sucked in because I don't have the emotional resources to deal with it.

    Fe: It's a funny movie. It will cheer you up! Well, hey, I gotta go now. Hope you feel better soon.
    (Fe walks away feeling bad for their friend, but annoyed to be burdened with their problems. Fi walks away feeling better about their life after venting, but annoyed that Fe brushed them off and won't open up).
    I wouldn't say it was annoyance and burden, but maybe not feeling they could do anything about it. When someone drops a bomb on you like that it takes time to move them into another emotional frame of mind, if they even want to be moved. Would it make a difference if the Fe had said "hope you feel better soon...maybe we'll talk later about it?" But then I think about what I said earlier, is it necessarily my responsibility to make someone else feel better when they say things like that? I don't have this instant profundity wand to say just the right thing to indicate how much I'm invested (or if there should even be an investment). I mean, I'll do what I can but should I have a heart-to-heart right then and there?

    I think about the appropriateness of when and how and what to say and if I'm standing in the xerox room and someone says that and I know I've got to get to a meeting soon I'll do what I can then but I'm not sure how much good it would be. I'd also think is this person being dramatic because I tend to make statements like that for obviously overblown dramatic effect, not typically as any true indicator of my inner emotional state.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Fe: You should call so-and-so because they've been depressed.
    Fi: I don't like them, and I don't care. Besides, they never call me and I've been depressed too.
    Fe: I know, but it would just be nice.
    Fi: Why should I be nice to someone I don't care about? You don't like so-and-so either.
    Fe: Because it's polite, and the right thing to do.
    If I don't like someone, other than basic politeness and professionalism I'd show simply because you're another human, I'm not going to actively make you think I like you.

    Fi: That's fake! I hate phony politeness. The right thing is to show genuine concern only. It's patronizing to pity people.
    (Fi never calls. Fi has no friends and feels ignored. Fe calls everyone. Everyone likes Fe. Fe talks behind their back).
    I agree with you, I wouldn't make someone believe something directly contradictory to how I really feel. Well, I can see situations where that would be the smartest but not necessarily genuine case, but not in a casual relationship like that. And you're right, people like people who like them even if they pretend to. Does it help to think how many wars pretend liking have stopped from happening? Sometimes the veneer of civility is enough.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  8. #18
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Any ideas as how to facilitate this attitude in your conversational partner? For instance, how can I communicate to an NTP that I *am* in fact trying to understand where he's coming from and that I do get what he/she is saying?
    I think just say it like you explained it in your examples, if y'all are sitting down talking about it. I thought you explained it really well. Of course, it does help to have MBTI as a framework. And just explain that the Fi spelunking comes as naturally to you as the Ti digging comes to us, and that you're okay with being told to back off if it gets uncomfortable. The other person should get the hint that they should also be okay with being told to back off.
    Something Witty

  9. #19
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I am sorry but I am still not with you all on that topic.

    Fe: How have you been?
    Fi: Terrible. Everything is going wrong (expounds on situation). How have you been?
    Fe: Errr, um, I'm sorry....well, I am sure things will get better for you... I am doing okay. The weather has been really hot though. Hey, I just saw that new movie, have you seen it?
    Fi: No, I can't enjoy anything because I feel so bad. The world is a blackhole, sucking my soul out.
    That way of communicating would be so retarded, I am not even sure it could happen in reality.

    I can perfectly stand to talk to someone, who has problems and my gf, who is dominant Fe even does it for a living.

    I think, what you all lack here is the right psychological distance to the problem or a better strategy on how to approach such a situation. If I myself am feeling bad, I dont ask people if I can help them. Then I see to it that I get help. But if someone else is feeling bad and I am feeling good. He couldnt influence me in that a great way that I feel bad afterwards. Cause I am on the higher ground in the discussion and I am the one that guy would rely on, therefore I would try to behave like that.

    I think the most misconceptions about ones own emotions derive from the fact that one is not conciously able to recognize he is feeling bad. And thats a thing that goes into the direction of what Fe really means in my opinion.
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  10. #20
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I wouldn't say it was annoyance and burden, but maybe not feeling they could do anything about it. When someone drops a bomb on you like that it takes time to move them into another emotional frame of mind, if they even want to be moved. Would it make a difference if the Fe had said "hope you feel better soon...maybe we'll talk later about it?" But then I think about what I said earlier, is it necessarily my responsibility to make someone else feel better when they say things like that? I don't have this instant profundity wand to say just the right thing to indicate how much I'm invested (or if there should even be an investment). I mean, I'll do what I can but should I have a heart-to-heart right then and there?

    I think about the appropriateness of when and how and what to say and if I'm standing in the xerox room and someone says that and I know I've got to get to a meeting soon I'll do what I can then but I'm not sure how much good it would be. I'd also think is this person being dramatic because I tend to make statements like that for obviously overblown dramatic effect, not typically as any true indicator of my inner emotional state.
    Yes and also from the Fe (or perhaps J) point of view, my first assumption when people tell me they're feeling bad is that they want me to help fix it... or at least that's the expectation Fe hears behind the words. Now the big question is what exactly can I do? I can hear you out sure, but that in my mind doesn't solve anything. Perhaps it's the directness of J wanting to cut through it all to fix something. Instead INFPs tend to just talk and talk with the expectation and doesn't seem to "do anything". Rather frustrating on my part. So after awhile I tend to just get out of these conversations as quickly as possible. Not because I don't want to help, but I couldn't see how I could help.
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