[MBTI General] INFJ Compatibility - Why the INFJ/ENTP dynamic is hands down the best.

[RDF]

Anyway, I'm not sure what my point is. To me, Ne vs Ni is all just point of view. Sometimes I get a little irritated with Ni-Doms and their seeming inability to take in new approaches once they get stuck on a certain track. On the other hand, I certainly admire their sharpness on a given issue when it comes time to hone an idea down to its most perfect expression.

Just wanted to follow up on a point. The following is a partial cross-post from another thread.

[...]Example using Te and Ti:

Te operates on an ad-hoc basis, coming up with real-time organizational tools for real-time problems. Ti, on the other hand, takes problems down into an internal laboratory and works out tools for that problem as well as a number of related problems, i.e., it works out a personal logical system for handling a broad array of similar problems. In that respect, Ti works out a kind of internal "delta" of Te. That is, it tracks lots of related or similar Te possibilities and works out an internal, personalized Ti system for handling them.

Extending that example to Fe and Fi:

Similarly, Fe works on an ad-hoc basis out in the world with emotional and social tools. By comparison, Fi takes such things down into an internal laboratory and works out a larger personalized system for handling such problems. As in the previous example, Fi works out a kind of internal "delta" of Fe.[...]

I think the same principle applies to Ne and Ni: Ne is ad hoc and operates out in the world; whereas Ni takes things down into an internal laboratory and tries to extract the principles that motivate or connect together related issues or events in the outer world.

In each case, the extroverted function out of each introverted/extroverted function pair deals with real-world events, whereas the introverted function tries to fabricate a system by working out the "delta" of real-world events and trying to extract the principle behind the events.

That would seem to make the introverted version of each function pair more far-sighted and "deeper." And there is some truth to that. But at the same time, the introverted version of each function pair also tends to demonstrate more tunnel vision. The introverted version is operating at a remove from actual events and issues (i.e., in dealing with the principle rather than the event or issue itself); and the habit of grasping at a principle may cause the introverted function to disregard real-world issues and events that don't fit the principle neatly or contradict the principle outright. Alternatively, the principle that is derived may simply be misguided: The introverted function may falsely derive a principle or connection between events that simply doesn't exist in real life.

I know that my own Fi-Dom is prone to these issues; hence I tend to regard Fe as a more "real-time" and useful function when dealing with real-world issues. And I expect the introverted versions of other functions-pairs (both perceiving and judging) would have these same problems.

Of course, both the introverted and extroverted versions of each function pair have an important role to play. It's the interplay between the practical (extroverted) and the theoretical (introverted). As I said elsewhere, Ne is about innovation; Ni is about optimization. Both are needed.

At the same time it's important to keep in mind that both the introverted and extroverted versions of each function pair can be rather one-sided and limited, each in their own way; which makes it all the more important to develop strongly at least one's top two functions as a balance to each other, rather than depending solely on one's Dominant function.

YMMV

 

[March]

Hi [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION],

Thanks. OK, I'll point out a couple of things that are confusing to me:

that's why i asked you how do you communicate to an INFJ when they've screwed you over without them jumping to intent - the mental leap to what might something imply isn't controllable externally.

This was your original question to me (edited to add 'to me'). Sounded like a call for advice, to me - I have a goal, tell me your ideas about how to best reach it. Is that the perspective you were taking? And if not, or if not solely, which other perspectives did you have when you said this?

there is the question of responsibility, and there's the question of how to discourage people from repeating the behaviors:


understanding what is, and understanding and what is useful to express.

What was your perspective/wish/intent when you said that? Were you looking for a particular kind of response?

Also: Are these two lines meant to be completely analogous (cow:mammal=tuna:fish)? (You seemed to imply so by talking about 'the first' and 'the second.') 'Cause in my world, they're definitely not, so that would mean more information's needed before we can find each other.

not to over extent the metaphor, i have had conversations that have suggested that to some extent INFJs view their decisions and motivations to be no different from a starving man's hunger - essentially that whatever it is they ended up doing was so clear to them as the only thing they could do - that they had to do - that if there was something wrong in what they did it means there is something wrong with who they are. i haven't gone so far as testing this though.

This seems like the crux of the issue to me.

Are the words you use and the links between the arguments (the bolded words) your summary, your may-or-may-not-be-accurate memory of what INFJs said verbatim, or an accurate verbatim repeat of the INFJs' argument?

What perspective were you taking when you said this in the thread? Were you looking for/hoping for a certain response? And what's the snark/earnestness ratio here?

Three seems enough for now.

 

[March]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION], in response to the point that you keep bringing up: I'm sorry, I'm going to have to plead terminal stupidity again because I just can't get what you're saying. Or rather, I don't get why this an epiphany?

I'm married to an ISTJ. We've been together for nearly 14 years, which in 3 years will be half my lifetime. As you can imagine, it hasn't been one smooth road of mutual appreciation and understanding - his 'natural' SiTe interpretations of my actions would lead him to think I thought he could never do anything right, and my 'natural' NiFe interpretations of his actious would lead ME to think that he doesn't care about me, like me, or respect me. Both of which aren't true.

But it gets tiresome to have the same fight over and over again, so one learns. (One thing one learns is that it's okay to have the same fight over and over again, as long as it doesn't damage the structural integrity of the relationship - apparently every couple has at least a couple of things they just can't agree on.)

So we both learned a lot of things.
1) Unhelpful things we do in general that are just annoying and we should weed them out - in my case, things like expecting people to mean things in a long-term way, even when they're stressed. Instead, I've learned to withhold judgement and clarify in low-stress times. But with each new person I meet I still need to check which side they fall on - assuming someone's judgements are short-term when they're actually long-term is as much a mistake as the opposite.
2) Helpful things to do in general that we should do more of - emotional self-care during fights, communicating clearly during fights and in general so things don't end up being fights. Practice, practice, practice, learn some grace.
3) Unhelpful things that are specific to the other person - hazarding a guess as to the other person's emotional state is generally considered kosher, but my husband has a hair trigger for that, so best to avoid it.
4) Helpful things to do that are specific to the other person - when my husband and I are fighting, it lightens the mood just fractionally if I meow at him like cat and tell him how pretty he is when he frowns. Not something I'd try with my boss or a friend.

I could go on and on but won't bore you. 3 and 4 are generally useless outside of the specific context, but 1 and 2 go with you wherever you go.

(Of course we're both PiJe peeps. The dynamic would probably be different in other combinations. But I'll come right out and say that even though it's a Ji function like my own dominant, Si has been a beast for me to wrap my head around - I still don't grok it, or course, but my heuristics are getting prettttty nice, and I definitely felt like the stupidest person on earth for a looong time while developing them.)

For me, steering by 'see yourself from the other's POV' is not very helpful. 'Cause I'm never really sure of the other's POV - see the trouble I have in understanding what [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]'s saying. At this time, there are about 10 POVs of me and my behaviour and INFJs in general I think he could reasonably be expected to have, and all of them require different actions from me, some mutually exclusive. Of course that probably works better if someone comes out and say 'My POV is...', but even then there are a couple of very reasonable POVs that would allow for someone saying that, and it wouldn't be a reliable way to distinguish between them. And if my next 'to do item' is both 'do X' and 'do Y, which precludes X', I freeze. (Also a pattern. But the right way to go about having a brain sensitive to that pattern isn't to NOT have that pattern, it's to figure out ways to avoid triggering that pattern and ways to get out of it if it does trigger.)

My guideline is usually 'does it work?' What does the person I'm talking to need? (Don't assume it's the same thing I need!) Does doing a thing result in the person I'm talking to feeling more or less stressed out? More or less understood? More or less trusting about the future? That's information that IS available to me (although on a message board that's not sophisticated enough to really steer by, and some people I find way harder to read in text than others). That never freezes me up, 'cause there's always something to try and as long as there's something to try I have hope, which gives me the energy to keep trying. (On message boards, it's not hope that drives me to keep posting but curiosity.)

I think you should work WITH what you have. Let's say NiFe is water - it can be devastating in floods or tsunamis. But that's not a reason to get rid of it, even if you could. It's more efficient to harness it instead and use it to power turbines or irrigate fields, and take precations to avoid floods and not build in tsunami area. If I expect to be able to it to burn or be impervious to gravity, though, I'll be disappointed. No matter how awesome fire is and how much I'd like to be that instead.

Some needs are fundamental and you can't unlearn. But I do think everyone can learn to get their needs met in ways that are maybe counterintuitive but also more productive than the default setting.

 

[Society]

the funny thing is, most of the time the points of view Ni doms "choose between" don't contradict in themselves - its choosing one or the other when neither is the basis to contradict the other - instead they seem to contradict in the meaning they attempting to convey.

this can be seen throughout this thread, and even in regards to this very topic - and it's very visible above with werebudgie & z buck:
they are saying "but i have a right & need to do X!!!"
i am saying" "...so you can't be trusted to not do X"
(wherein X is discounting of undesirable points of view)

not only do the two non contradict in anyway substantial way, but they have identical starting assumptions.

so where does the need to pick one over the other stems from?
as the general pattern goes, the contradiction isn't in the argument, but in the narrative the statement says:

• the first enables the tale of a people prosecuted and made to feel bad for who they are and have no choice to be.
• the second describes describes the consequences that behavior has on the basic assumptions of human trust.

they can't tell the first story that comforts them if you allow the story which conflicts with it.

edit: that was meant to follow cafe's response a page ago.

 

[Eilonwy]

Eilonwy, in response to the point that you keep bringing up: I'm sorry, I'm going to have to plead terminal stupidity again because I just can't get what you're saying. Or rather, I don't get why this an epiphany?

I'm married to an ISTJ. We've been together for nearly 14 years, which in 3 years will be half my lifetime. As you can imagine, it hasn't been one smooth road of mutual appreciation and understanding - his 'natural' SiTe interpretations of my actions would lead him to think I thought he could never do anything right, and my 'natural' NiFe interpretations of his actious would lead ME to think that he doesn't care about me, like me, or respect me. Both of which aren't true.

But it gets tiresome to have the same fight over and over again, so one learns. (One thing one learns is that it's okay to have the same fight over and over again, as long as it doesn't damage the structural integrity of the relationship - apparently every couple has at least a couple of things they just can't agree on.)

So we both learned a lot of things.
1) Unhelpful things we do in general that are just annoying and we should weed them out - in my case, things like expecting people to mean things in a long-term way, even when they're stressed. Instead, I've learned to withhold judgement and clarify in low-stress times. But with each new person I meet I still need to check which side they fall on - assuming someone's judgements are short-term when they're actually long-term is as much a mistake as the opposite.
2) Helpful things to do in general that we should do more of - emotional self-care during fights, communicating clearly during fights and in general so things don't end up being fights. Practice, practice, practice, learn some grace.
3) Unhelpful things that are specific to the other person - hazarding a guess as to the other person's emotional state is generally considered kosher, but my husband has a hair trigger for that, so best to avoid it.
4) Helpful things to do that are specific to the other person - when my husband and I are fighting, it lightens the mood just fractionally if I meow at him like cat and tell him how pretty he is when he frowns. Not something I'd try with my boss or a friend.

I could go on and on but won't bore you. 3 and 4 are generally useless outside of the specific context, but 1 and 2 go with you wherever you go.

(Of course we're both PiJe peeps. The dynamic would probably be different in other combinations. But I'll come right out and say that even though it's a Ji function like my own dominant, Si has been a beast for me to wrap my head around - I still don't grok it, or course, but my heuristics are getting prettttty nice, and I definitely felt like the stupidest person on earth for a looong time while developing them.)

For me, steering by 'see yourself from the other's POV' is not very helpful. 'Cause I'm never really sure of the other's POV - see the trouble I have in understanding what [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]'s saying. At this time, there are about 10 POVs of me and my behaviour and INFJs in general I think he could reasonably be expected to have, and all of them require different actions from me, some mutually exclusive. Of course that probably works better if someone comes out and say 'My POV is...', but even then there are a couple of very reasonable POVs that would allow for someone saying that, and it wouldn't be a reliable way to distinguish between them. And if my next 'to do item' is both 'do X' and 'do Y, which precludes X', I freeze. (Also a pattern. But the right way to go about having a brain sensitive to that pattern isn't to NOT have that pattern, it's to figure out ways to avoid triggering that pattern and ways to get out of it if it does trigger.)

My guideline is usually 'does it work?' What does the person I'm talking to need? (Don't assume it's the same thing I need!) Does doing a thing result in the person I'm talking to feeling more or less stressed out? More or less understood? More or less trusting about the future? That's information that IS available to me (although on a message board that's not sophisticated enough to really steer by, and some people I find way harder to read in text than others). That never freezes me up, 'cause there's always something to try and as long as there's something to try I have hope, which gives me the energy to keep trying. (On message boards, it's not hope that drives me to keep posting but curiosity.)

I think you should work WITH what you have. Let's say NiFe is water - it can be devastating in floods or tsunamis. But that's not a reason to get rid of it, even if you could. It's more efficient to harness it instead and use it to power turbines or irrigate fields, and take precations to avoid floods and not build in tsunami area. If I expect to be able to it to burn or be impervious to gravity, though, I'll be disappointed. No matter how awesome fire is and how much I'd like to be that instead.

Some needs are fundamental and you can't unlearn. But I do think everyone can learn to get their needs met in ways that are maybe counterintuitive but also more productive than the default setting.

I hear you. But in my last post, I asked for you to forget all the other stuff, all the pov stuff, that I've said. I said I was trying to narrow it down for you, posed a question (bolded in my quote below), and asked for you to focus on that question.

I was trying to get you to think about the thought processes that went into your interpretation of my quote. Could there be something about INFJ thought processes, that combo of NiFeTiSe, that might lead to a consistent pattern of responses that INFJs are unaware of?


ETA: I'm trying to narrow this down for you. Forget about all the other stuff I've said and start from here. And take your time. Don't feel you have to deal with this right now.

ETA2: Sorry. There's also the choice to not deal with it at all. Which is also okay.

I want to reiterate, I know how mentally taxing and confusing this can be, especially because you're having two different conversations at the same time. So, I'm going to bow out and let you put all of your concentration into your conversation with Mane. If you're still interested, we can pick this conversation up later.

 

[March]

I want to reiterate --> "Could there be something about INFJ thought processes, that combo of NiFeTiSe, that might lead to a consistent pattern of responses that INFJs are unaware of?"

Ah, I didn't realize you literally wanted to leave out all context.

In which case this becomes extremely easy to answer.

Of course. That's the whole definition of cognitive functions, right, that some things are so ingrained we don't even consider them a choice, find it hard to conceive other people don't have the same shortcuts and find it even harder to literally see things from another's POV?

Edited to add: Just noticed that your quote can be taken both generally and specifically - cognitive functions cause blind spots, or INFJ functions in particular cause more blind spots than others. Not sure if I'd agree with that per se, but I'd be willing to entertain the notion if you talked about it a little more. I know a lot of clueless people, including myself.

What's the point of your point?

 

[Winds of Thor]

Ok. INFJs just need to live. Experience. And by the time they're 50, you might have consistent pleasant conversations with them. That's my exp. anyway.

ENTPs take 4 decades to mature enough to consistently be mature. So I guess the two get together after long roads of learning and maturing.

All this stuff here is pushing. Which is good to know stuff. But it ain't gonna change how people are, at least probably not to any level of happiness.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Welp. At least INTJ-ENFP threads aren't the only catastrophic cluster fuck around here, despite being considered 'ideal' in theory.

 

[March]

Haha, I can agree with that, [MENTION=6037]Winds of Thor[/MENTION]!

Someone said upthread (*goes looking* ah it was you yourself, how poetic) that the most difficult courses end up being the most enjoyable and rewarding. But people only have a snowball's chance in hell to survive those difficult courses if they'd laid the groundwork.

Don't sign up for an advanced college-level quantum physics course unless you have a working grasp of college-level physics, for which you need high-school level physics, for which you need math, for which you need arithmetic.

I'm 31 years old, and from this thread it's obvious that there's no point in me signing up for the ENTP waiting list, no matter how rewarding it might be. But I don't think that's a negative, per se. Lots of other rewarding courses out there that are 'just' difficult enough to be interesting.

 

[Eilonwy]

Ok. INFJs just need to live. Experience. And by the time they're 50, you might have consistent pleasant conversations with them. That's my exp. anyway.

ENTPs take 4 decades to mature enough to consistently be mature. So I guess the two get together after long roads of learning and maturing.

All this stuff here is pushing. Which is good to know stuff. But it ain't gonna change how people are, at least probably not to any level of happiness.

Unfortunately, we can still go batshit crazy on you at 50. But at least we might be able to admit to it. Still lots of room for improvement.

 

[1487610420]

4) Helpful things to do that are specific to the other person - when my husband and I are fighting, it lightens the mood just fractionally if I meow at him like cat and tell him how pretty he is when he frowns. Not something I'd try with my boss or a friend.

 

[March]

[MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION],

Hahahaha, haven't laughed this hard in ages. It's HORRIFYING yet so, so funny. The brass balls on that kid - Where do you FIND those things?

Also a great example of what the INFJ strategy prolly looks right when gone wrong or deliberatly employed to avoid responsibility instead of taking it.

For completeness' sake, I'm happy to let y'all know that I ALSO wouldn't meow at someone if I'd stolen $12,000 from them or endangered their kids. Just in case you were wondering.

 

[Society]

And what's the snark/earnestness ratio here?

the only thing i can think of that responded to you and yet carried a tone of snarkiness was the 2nd paragraph here, which served the topic at hand with you as a disclaimer in regards to intent, expressing that while it's rarely a meaningful target, i am not above calling people out on full out contradictions, while also explaining my general jadedness in regards to the general discussion letting it function as a disclaimer in regards to any emotional tones, the later of which i am not always aware of and yet seems to be likely when i am arguing with several in the same time (the irony isn't lost of me - seems i needed a working version of that disclaimer placed before that disclaimer).

Are the words you use and the links between the arguments (the balded words) your summary, your may-or-may-not-be-accurate memory of what INFJs said verbatim, or an accurate verbatim repeat of the INFJs' argument?

its just a musing i bounced around awhile ago that might explain this - i can't verify it or substantially argue for or against it one way or the other (are you saying you identify with it? can you expand?)

What was your perspective/wish/intent when you said that? Were you looking for a particular kind of response?

it's entirely possible that you would get the best result from airline by claiming to have a medical condition and be bumped to 1st class, but the usefulness of the matter doesn't affect your health. it might be that children could behave better if you'd remind them they need to get on santa claus's good kids list, but that doesn't support the existence of santa. i know a couple that would have probably stayed together and gained the most if they never talked about their infidelity, but just because making a statement has negative consequences doesn't make the statement incorrect - quite a few pioneers in the European enlightenment have made true statements with horrible consequences. likewise it is entirely possible that bringing up issues of responsibility and causality in regards to actual behavior isn't as useful as presenting faith in one's capacity for desirable behavior - maybe with INFJs in particular or maybe with people in general.

with regards to the last example, you seemed to have answered the question of assigning the characteristic of a behavior (like calling someone who cheats a cheater or a someone who steals a thief) by saying it isn't useful - i am explaining that the usefulness of saying something doesn't affect whether its true or false.

so yes - the statement was analogues. as it is here: my problem being that while the discussion seems to focus 2nd (the question of what is), i'm actually more interested in the 1st (the question of practical approach), and to what extent the two can correspond (essentially: when confronting an INFJ, to what extent can i just be honest and allow out relating to things the way i see them vs. just nod and smile and take in whatever narrative makes them feel better). i'll be blunt that right now i tend to believe the later, which is problematic, because i don't see how i could get very good at meeting those requirements.

This was your original question to me (edited to add 'to me'). Sounded like a call for advice, to me - I have a goal, tell me your ideas about how to best reach it. Is that the perspective you were taking? And if not, or if not solely, which other perspectives did you have when you said this?

it was to demonstrate the problem with the solution: your adding the intent.
my own experience and that of others who i talked too coming out of INFJ relationships seem to include the words "are you implying that...."
since the thread's newly resurrection samvega wrote the example of an INFJ hearing "strange" as accusation of "being weird"
since then you outright had to add (and color coded) every piece of text that suggested i was accusing you of intent, you read eilonwy as accusing you when she wasn't, you tried establishing a semantic framework in which the accusation of intent must be there, you've tried establishing that the burden of making sure you aren't saying anything that could be understood as meaning something in regards to intent.... but in all of those cases, you don't seem to need anyone to actually say you "your intent is" - you read it as implied, as it seems so do other INFJs.

 

[March]

the only thing i can think of that responded to you and yet carried a tone of snarkiness was the 2nd paragraph here

Good to know. That wasn't what twigged my 'don't know if serious radar,' so it helps to have your confirmation that I'm just miscalibrated.

its just a musing i bounced around awhile ago that might explain this - i can't verify it or substantially argue for or against it one way or the other (are you saying you identify with it? can you expand?)

It's like the funhouse mirror or Monster of Frankenstein version of what's going on in me. Most of the parts are there, but the connections are messed up, the relative sizes are wrong, and I don't think it's actually viable. I could try to expand to the regular mirror/regular living human version, sure.

it's entirely possible that you would get the best result from airline by claiming to have a medical condition and be bumped to 1st class, but the usefulness of the matter doesn't affect your health.

Ah, you're thinking I mean politics.

I was talking Venn diagrams.

"Understanding what is, and understanding what useful to express" sounds like you think the latter is unrelated to the former. To get the best result, you could just tell the partial truth (leave things out) or elaborate on the truth (make things up). Venn diagram of two circles that might overlap, might be identical, and might not have any overlap at all.

While that may be efficient, it's deceptive. It's fraud. And I'd rather die than treat my spouse that way just to get 'what I want', and you don't seem to like it much either - part of we want is to be able to express ourselves without too much handwringing and hoop-jumping and be appreciated for who we are.

"There is the question of responsibility, and there's the question of how to discourage people from repeating the behaviors", on the other hand, can't be described by that same Venn diagram, in my mind.

Seems to me that if people take responsibility, that automatically discourages them from repeating the behaviors. So those circles always overlap at least partially, and probably by a lot. (The nonoverlapping part is 'other factors that discourage people from repeating the behaviors, such as 'getting sick', 'car breaks down' and other things - not interesting to us.) In fact, I'd say that if you don't at least pay attention not to repeat the behavior, you've only paid lip service to the idea of taking responsibility and you've not actually done it.

So 'the question of responsibility' and 'how to get them to not do it again' are roughly the same thing to me, and they do not include having to hide part of the truth or making stuff up. In fact, I'd suggest telling MORE of the truth should do the trick. And that also means that it's hard to impossible to separate 'the first' from 'the second' - I might be able to do it if you're very clear about exactly what you mean, maybe including venn diagrams.

And I'm absolutely convinced that your option A is feasible when you say

(essentially: when confronting an INFJ, to what extent can i just be honest and allow out relating to things the way i see them vs. just nod and smile and take in whatever narrative makes them feel better).

Even though I also understand you're not feeling too optimistic about that.

it was to demonstrate the problem with the solution: your adding the intent.

Nah, not what I meant. In the previous thread we talked, I left you hanging when you asked

how do you make sure that telling them "you've being an asshole, please stop being an asshole" or describing the consequences of actions and choices they made which "imply that they are" is understood as something that they have control over rather than a static absolute? why is it even interpreted in terms of intent? is pointing out the consequences assumed as claiming those where the intentions? how to withhold the jump from an exhibited trait ("i am an asshole") to defining themselves by it completely ("maybe that's all i am")? how can you present them with devaluing elements of reality without them feeling powerless to change it?

That sounded like a call for advice.

My making explicit what I thought you meant was a (misguided, in retrospect) attempt to answer that call.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Haha, I can agree with that, [MENTION=6037]Winds of Thor[/MENTION]!

Someone said upthread (*goes looking* ah it was you yourself, how poetic) that the most difficult courses end up being the most enjoyable and rewarding. But people only have a snowball's chance in hell to survive those difficult courses if they'd laid the groundwork.

Don't sign up for an advanced college-level quantum physics course unless you have a working grasp of college-level physics, for which you need high-school level physics, for which you need math, for which you need arithmetic.

I'm 31 years old, and from this thread it's obvious that there's no point in me signing up for the ENTP waiting list, no matter how rewarding it might be. But I don't think that's a negative, per se. Lots of other rewarding courses out there that are 'just' difficult enough to be interesting.

Thank you. I laughed at your comments here.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Unfortunately, we can still go batshit crazy on you at 50. But at least we might be able to admit to it. Still lots of room for improvement.

Haa!! funny.

 

[Eilonwy]

[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_on_our_buggy_moral_code[/video]

Finally got to watch. These were both excellent. Thanks for posting them.

 

[Eilonwy]

So, please, don't feel like you have to apologise for being Ni-dom, and don't force yourself to acquiesce more than you feel ready for - just see if you can be open to the feedback and process it at your leisure.

Purposely cherry-picking. I did notice the "Which you seem to be doing" part.

Asking for clarity: Does it look like I've been forcing myself to acquiesce?

My experience of it: Forcing myself isn't quite right; it depends on the context. And, as far as the whole experience is concerned, I haven't been reluctant to go through it. It's been my choice the whole way through. I enjoy the challenge. I want to learn and grow. This is my online version of "live and learn".*

Addressing the first part of the quote: I would be lying if I said I haven't felt like apologizing for being, well, INFJ, rather than Ni-dom. In fact, I have apologized for it several times. But there have been different levels in my head to that, too. Whenever there was some sort of realization, finally seeing the behavior in myself, or in others and being able to relate it to myself, there was always an "oh shit" moment. I'm beginning to realize that maybe I still do the atonement thing, even though I know that feeling bad isn't going to atone for anything. But I'm also wondering if there's some purpose to it--if all of the emotion somehow helps to fix the lesson in my brain? It's not like when something 'clicks' for me, so it doesn't seem to stay with me in the same way, but maybe it helps associate feeling bad with the behavior. Just speculating.

Anyway, it's a learning process for me. It seems to me that I'm concentrating on the negative parts because those were missing from my framework. Eventually, I'll integrate them in with the positive parts for a fuller and, hopefully, more realistic picture of myself. The positives are still in there somewhere--maybe as an anchor of sorts. And I think that there's enough of a reserve of positives that the negatives aren't going to destroy me.

*ETA: There is another layer, too, that's about being useful. So, if what I learn can help someone else, that's a huge motivator for me, too.

 

[Amargith]

Purposely cherry-picking. I did notice the "Which you seem to be doing" part.

Asking for clarity: Does it look like I've been forcing myself to acquiesce?

My experience of it: Forcing myself isn't quite right; it depends on the context. And, as far as the whole experience is concerned, I haven't been reluctant to go through it. It's been my choice the whole way through. I enjoy the challenge. I want to learn and grow. This is my online version of "live and learn".

Addressing the first part of the quote: I would be lying if I said I haven't felt like apologizing for being, well, INFJ, rather than Ni-dom. In fact, I have apologized for it several times. But there have been different levels in my head to that, too. Whenever there was some sort of realization, finally seeing the behavior in myself, or in others and being able to relate it to myself, there was always an "oh shit" moment. I'm beginning to realize that maybe I still do the atonement thing, even though I know that feeling bad isn't going to atone for anything. But I'm also wondering if there's some purpose to it--if all of the emotion somehow helps to fix the lesson in my brain? It's not like when something 'clicks' for me, so it doesn't seem to stay with me in the same way, but maybe it helps associate feeling bad with the behavior. Just speculating.

Anyway, it's a learning process for me. It seems to me that I'm concentrating on the negative parts because those were missing from my framework. Eventually, I'll integrate them in with the positive parts for a fuller and, hopefully, more realistic picture of myself. The positives are still in there somewhere--maybe as an anchor of sorts. And I think that there's enough of a reserve of positives that the negatives aren't going to destroy me.

That's all I was looking for. Maybe it's the Fi-hang-up thing, but I hate to see people bending over backwards for others at the expense of who they are. It puts them at risk for self-flagellation, martyr syndrome and generally being miserable for no good reason. Otoh, the willingness to grow and integrate things is

 

[PeaceBaby]

And the emotional/judgmental stuff gets in the way, too. Fe gets in the way.

Fe is not in the way, you need it. I think one of the most concise things I've read on Fe in INFJ is on the personalitypages.com website. Here's an excerpt:

When Introverted iNtuition dominates the INFJ such that the other functions cannot serve their own purposes, we find the INFJ cutting off information that it needs to consider. If the psyche is presented with information that looks anything like something that Introverted iNtuition has processed in the past, it uses Extraverted Feeling to quickly reject that information. The psyche uses Extraverted Feeling to reject the ideas, rather than taking the information into its intuitive framework, and therefore potentially causing that framework to be reshaped and redefined.

Using Extraverted Feeling in this manner may effectively serve the immediate needs of Introverted iNtuition, but it is not ideal. It causes the INFJ to not consider information that may be useful or criticial in developing a real understanding of an issue. It may cause the INFJ to come off as too strongly opinionated or snobbish to others.

The better use of Extraverted Feeling for an INFJ would be to use it to assess the INFJ's rich insights and weigh them against the external world. When the INFJ personality uses Extraverted Feeling to cut off incoming information, rather than to judge internal intuitions, it is effectively cheating itself. It's like getting the answers to a test without having to really understand the questions. It's easier to get the answer right away, rather than to have to figure everything out. For the INFJ, who has a tremendous amount of information and "studying" that needs to be done, it's very tempting to take shortcuts. Most INFJs will do this to some extent. The real problems occur when an INFJ personality has become so imbalanced that its owner is extremely self-important and rarely consider anyone else's opinions or ideas.

Solutions

To grow as an individual, the INFJ needs to focus on applying their judgment to things only after they have gone through their intuition. In other words, the INFJ needs to consciously try not to use their judgment to dismiss ideas prematurely. Rather, they should use their judgment against their own ideas. One cannot effectively judge something that they don't understand. The INFJ needs to take things entirely into their intuition in order to understand them. It may be neccesary to give your intuition enough time to work through the new information so that it can rebuild its global framework of understanding. INFJs need to focus on using their judgment not to dismiss ideas, but rather to support their intuitive framework.

An INFJ who is concerned with personal growth will pay close attention to the subject of their judgments, and their motivation for making judgments. Are they judging something external to themself, or are they judging something that they have sifted through their intuition? Is the motivation for judging something to be able to understand its usefulness in the world, or to dismiss it? Too often, an INFJ will judge something without properly understanding it, and with the intention of dismissing it. Seek first to understand, then to judge.

Link: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INFJ_per.html


This is what I think you're doing, here, lately, in this thread and in your blog. Using your Fe on YOU in this healthy way to expand your framework and not on others for the purpose of retaining an existing one. I think there's a fair corollary in that as an Fi user I have had to learn to use Fi on OTHERS and not just me. Meaning, when people treat me badly it's not because I was wrong or stupid or deserved it somehow. I need to look OUT. As I see it and have shared in the past, it's about using your Fe IN. I wish I had better words to explain.

Fe is your friend. It really, really is. The evidence is in the process you are experiencing. It is enabling you to expand your framework in positive ways, optimize your interactions with others, learn more about YOU in that process too. But it's a long and slow task. The only advantage I've had is a head-start since the world is not patient with Pe users and I've had to adapt from a younger age. We are all still learning, really.

So, you have nothing to apologize for in any way.