[MBTI General] INFJ Compatibility - Why the INFJ/ENTP dynamic is hands down the best.

[Riva]

I've noticed a definite difference between myself (and other female ENTPs) and ENTP guys.

Could you elaborate a bit on this difference.

Use your ti.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

^I've noticed it too, btw. I'm not willing to explain why, at least not in this thread, but I have noticed that difference between female and male NTPs myself.

[I was in a relationship with an ENTP for eight years, to give an idea of the experience I have.]

 

[1487610420]

That would render any dialogue meaningless... a dialogue is a transaction ... otherwise it turns into a monologue ... if you don't expect something from someone or the interaction, why bother with it in the first place? What's the driving force then?



They do categorize and classify people based on their Ne deductions...that's judgment...everyone does it...some are more outspoken about it...



Or an escape from bad memories...Nice point about Si though...My ENTP friend seems to forget who I really am sometimes...as if he doesn't have this long-term static/stable image of me...



It's what the dominant function do for all of us...make sense of the world...The thing between ENTPs and INFJs maybe due to that they can understand where the other comes from and wants to achieve but detest the means employed...

Check this clip to see how an Ne-dom can throw judgments around

Those aren't judgments, they're deducted possibilities, combining perceiving data and structuring it in a feedback loop spanning all functions, from Ne expansion, to Ti to inferior Si memory. The least - intentionally, usually called button pushing - displayed function is tertiary Fe, in order to feed the feedback loop, and attest the possibilities, seen at the end.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

LOL.

 

[yeghor]

Those aren't judgments, they're deducted possibilities, combining perceiving data and structuring it in a feedback loop spanning all functions, from Ne expansion, to Ti to inferior Si memory. The least - intentionally, usually called button pushing - displayed function is tertiary Fe, in order to feed the feedback loop, and attest the possibilities, seen at the end.

Well, I think they are coming from the auxiliary judging function...Ne is only propelling them outwards at the external object in question form and checking incoming reactions...
'
At first Ne and Fe in Will is perceiving internalizing data about Robin Williams' character...it's quick, rough but somewhat accurate...Then the internalized preliminary data gets analyzed thru Ti-tert and perhaps Si-inf, but mostly thru the former...

This analysis makes consecutive judgments about the internalized version [image] of the external object...and those judgments are propelled to the external object thru Ne in form of questions\possibilities...which in turn yield more reactionary data to be perceived by Ne and Fe...and the loop goes on till the internally accumulated data about the external object yields a sufficiently resolute internal image of the external object...hence the true form of the external object gets recognized by the ENTP...

ENTP is constantly passing on judgment about the external object...it's just that they are expressed externally in question form...

 

[1487610420]

Well, I think they are coming from the auxiliary judging function...Ne is only propelling them outwards at the external object in question form and checking incoming reactions...
'
At first Ne and Fe in Will is perceiving internalizing data about Robin Williams' character...it's quick, rough but somewhat accurate...Then the internalized preliminary data gets analyzed thru Ti-tert and perhaps Si-inf, but mostly thru the former...

This analysis makes consecutive judgments about the internalized version [image] of the external object...and those judgments are propelled to the external object thru Ne in form of questions\possibilities...which in turn yield more reactionary data to be perceived by Ne and Fe...and the loop goes on till the internally accumulated data about the external object yields a sufficiently resolute internal image of the external object...hence the true form of the external object gets recognized by the ENTP...

ENTP is constantly passing on judgment about the external object...it's just that they are expressed externally in question form...

So, besides repeating what I said in a more pedantic way, you're also informing us how ENTP is a type with a capacity for, and a frequent use of, a judging function in their mental arsenal. Fascinating.

 

[yeghor]

So, besides repeating what I said in a more pedantic way, you're also informing us how ENTP is a type with a capacity for, and a frequent use of, a judging function in their mental arsenal. Fascinating.

 

[EcK]

^I've noticed it too, btw. I'm not willing to explain why, at least not in this thread, but I have noticed that difference between female and male NTPs myself.

[I was in a relationship with an ENTP for eight years, to give an idea of the experience I have.]

why did you murder him. and where's the body?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

why did you murder him. and where's the body?

It was a few years ago. I can't rightly remember, on either count.

 

[Werebudgie]

[MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] I find it curious that you view ENTPs as judgmental as function wise the ENTP and ENFP would be the very least judgmental of all the MBTI types. I have never met one I felt this way about, I could tell any of the ENPs I know pretty much anything with zero fear of judgment. It has been my experience that INFJs that aren't comfortable with themselves will view us that way due to a tendency to add emotions relating to their perception to statements. A made up example:

ENTP - You're skinny. (nothing more than a statement of their perception, neither good nor bad)

INFJ - What are you saying?

ENTP - That you're skinny.

The INFJ will then take the statement and depending on how they perceive themselves assume anything from the ENTP judging how much they eat to them saying they have an eating disorder.

To actually quote a real life INFJ example like I'm talking about from a few days ago I will quote the actual text conversation:

INFJ - I'm an INFJ

Me - I figured you were an INFJ, interesting to find an INFJ with blank (blank used in place of a more personal detail that isn't germane to this context).

INFJ- Why is an INFJ with blank strange? And what's your type?

Me - Now see what you did there, I said "interesting" and you converted it to "strange".

INFJ - You're right I did.

INFJ - I wonder why I converted "interesting" to "strange"... Maybe I read into your observation and subconsciously attached a negative connotation to the word "interesting".

I found this ^ ^ fascinating.

Disclaimer: I'm more than a bit wary of sharing my musings here because I can already see several ways it could yield a useless clusterf*ck of TypeC weirdness. But because I really am interested in this topic right now, will try it anyway.

Given this thread - especially my dialogue there with [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION] plus a subsequent discussion about that conversation with my INFP partner, I've been thinking about two different modes of communication (if not, more broadly, two different modes of processing language): literal, and contextual-associational. My INFP partner, prpl, and you in this example are using language flat-out literally, while your INFJ friend (and me, and possibly other INFJs and other people/types who do this) take a more contextual and/or associational approach to language and communication.

Oh and I want to be clear (because this is TypeC after all) that for me this is a matter of equally valid difference, not a "one is better and the other sucks so let's rant about types/functions we don't like" approach.

So. Anyway. In my experience when the literal approach meets the contextual-associational in interaction, things can get confusing and misunderstandings can happen. I've certainly seen that in my own relationship.

I've been trying to figure out how to describe what it's like to have a contextual/associational approach to language and communication. One way I could say it is that for me, words are simply the surface layer of meaning, not ever the complete meaning (not even close). I've wondered (since I started consciously thinking about this yesterday) if this is related to the Ni tendency to look underneath the visible surface for meaning. I know for me, words don't do justice to reality in any way, so for me any use of words is more like a marker saying "meaning underneath" than a complete communication. So when I use words, and when I hear/read words, there are all sorts of other factors that come in for my understanding. The larger context of the discussion. Things like: non-linear patterns of understanding from previously received information from and about the person, if relevant. My own internal association chains of meaning. Etc.

My INFP partner, on the other hand, can and often does use words very literally. The above-referenced conversation with prplchknz raised that into consciousness for me and yielded an interesting discussion between my partner and I last night. For us, understanding this difference helps us understand our dynamic.

I haven't seen this come up in my interactions with my ENTP friend, though. Or if it has, I haven't noticed it. I may ask her. And I don't know if differences in this regard are closely related to MBTI type or if this is in another layer of human diversity. That said - if it is true that INFPs and ENTPs tend more to the literal communication side, and INFJs tend more to the contextual-associational side, then am I correct in thinking that the difference might relate to Ni/Ne?

Also: I have no idea if what I'm calling literal versus contextual-associational communication is actually a thing that anyone has looked at/documented in a more rigorous way. If it is I'd love to get more info on that. I've been lazy and haven't done much searching yet.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I have no idea if what I'm calling literal versus contextual-associational communication is actually a thing that anyone has looked at/documented in a more rigorous way. If it is I'd love to get more info on that. I've been lazy and haven't done much searching yet.

What you're noting is primarily a general difference between Te and Fe. Te types tend to be literal across the board. Te doms are painfully literal at times. But even Te inferior tends to both use and take language at face value.

eta: wrt to Samvega's example, Ne dom in combination with Fe tert will make him more aware of the ways the word could be socially construed. Noting the direction of how it's construed will form part of the accretion of Si data on "how people react". A potentially literal meaning upon utterance is therefore helpful in this context. In his example, I would have sensed the Ne poised to go in different directions depending on what I said next. Which is why the best answer is, "What do you mean by interesting?'

 

[PeaceBaby]

ENTP is constantly passing on judgment about the external object...it's just that they are expressed externally in question form...

No, they are not. They are accumulating data, which they then choose to use for purposes centered primarly in the present tense. Adaptive, reactive. Optimising on the fly.

 

[1487610420]

ENTP is constantly passing on judgment about the external object...it's just that they are expressed externally in question form...

No, they are not. They are accumulating data, which they then choose to use for purposes centered primarly in the present tense. Adaptive, reactive. Optimising on the fly.

It might be wise to separate Judging as function/Rational logic process vs passing judgement - which has been at the core of many issues raised in this thread

and many others involving Ni-dom Feeeeeelahz.

 

[Samvega]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] that was an excellent contribution. Not to toss a wrench in it but I would like to add my worst misunderstandings have come from in interactions with IxFPs and IxFJs but that doesn't mean you aren't onto something. It may be a matter of your idea in a scale form so it changes depending on the types involved. Meaning, you see the INFP as more direct and while they're more direct than you they are not more direct than me therefore I have similar issues with them. What you're saying seems like a different perspective on the T/F communication differences.

As an outsider I would also add that I see the INFJ/INFP pairing as one of the worst of any MBTI type couple. It's like me dating an ENTJ which I would see as equally bad. I'm not saying INFJ/INFP doesn't happen, in fact it's one of the most common but it kind of grosses me out personally and I know many INFJs that report it feeling "wrong". I'm also not sure how on earth an INFJ woman would be able to respect an INFP man though that may be my own issues on how I believe a man should be and really isn't relevant outside of my own mind.

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] ENTPs can certainly be a pain in the ass with the behavior you mentioned. We like to understand things and people, we see patterns and adapt and adjust. I was reckless with people's emotions when I was younger and the Fe made me not want to face things or truths so I avoided them or lied and as an Enneagram 7 then avoided that I caused hurt by escaping into new and fun things, people or adventures. So, while I'm a T and speak very directly now that I've matured it's because I see that value in not dragging things out, I've learned that most times in my attempted to spare feelings I hurt them far worse, a lesson many INFJs could stand to learn.

However, even with my direct wording I attempt to draw from the patterns of my past relating to similar people and be more clear, avoid certain types of phrases, add caveats, clarify that I'm not making a judgement, telling the person I care about them so if they feel attacked or I'm hurting their feelings to ask for clarification as I wouldn't intentionally do that and we may have a misunderstanding. This is high energy though and not something I could handle in a close day to day situation or one where I was attempting to get my emotional needs met by the person.

Is any of what I'm saying still germane? I rant sometimes, clearly.

This thread does seem to be heading in a positive direction adding much clarification to communication issues between the two types so thank you to those who have shared their experiences, thoughts, and perspectives.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It might be wise to separate Judging as function/Rational logic process vs passing judgement - which has been at the core of many issues raised in this thread

Indeed. Words, so many meanings.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Meaning, you see the INFP as more direct and while they're more direct than you they are not more direct than me therefore I have similar issues with them.

Agreed. We are only more direct about certain things. But it is true I think that we tend to take words more at face value. We are more trusting of something, and less trusting of something else, but I would have to pause for a bit to capture that with better words.

 

[Werebudgie]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] that was an excellent contribution. Not to toss a wrench in it but I would like to add my worst misunderstandings have come from in interactions with IxFPs and IxFJs but that doesn't mean you aren't onto something. It may be a matter of your idea in a scale form so it changes depending on the types involved. Meaning, you see the INFP as more direct and while they're more direct than you they are not more direct than me therefore I have similar issues with them. What you're saying seems like a different perspective on the T/F communication differences.

I was worried that my comment would somehow start a derail, so I'm really glad to hear you find what I wrote useful as a contribution. I'm still looking into possible sources for this difference I'm exploring (literal versus contextual-associative). Am I understanding correctly that you've seen the literal/contextual as a T-F thing? Or is directness something different from literalness, in your view? Or something else?

Also, since you don't seem to think this line of exploration is a derail, I'll go ahead and tag a couple of INTJs I PMed to see which side of the line they're on if any (trying to figure out if Ni/Ne has anything whatsoever to do with contextual-associative). (@uumlau, [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] if you're willing to reply to my PM question about where you fall in the literal versus contextual communication thing, apparently it isn't derailing the thread to answer publicly if you're so inclined).

And Samvega, I don't think you're tossing a wrench into anything from sharing information and data from your experiences! Truth is truth in any case. And while I'm certainly curious about the possible source(s) of this difference in me and my INFP re literal versus contextual-associative ... in the end, just explicitly knowing this difference exists and being able to discuss it with each other is much more valuable to us than knowing exactly where it's sourced in each of us. This is just icing on the cake, to explore it like this.

As an outsider I would also add that I see the INFJ/INFP pairing as one of the worst of any MBTI type couple. It's like me dating an ENTJ which I would see as equally bad. I'm not saying INFJ/INFP doesn't happen, in fact it's one of the most common but it kind of grosses me out personally and I know many INFJs that report it feeling "wrong". I'm also not sure how on earth an INFJ woman would be able to respect an INFP man though that may be my own issues on how I believe a man should be and really isn't relevant outside of my own mind.

In our case, we're both women, so I don't know how that plays into (or not) your gender dynamic musings.

To your other comments, this is my situation: I met the love of my life around four years ago, and it turns out she's INFP to my INFJ. The differences are very difficult sometimes. These days it seems to me that the hardest thing about the INFP/INFJ differences in our case is that they can really mask/get in the way of us seeing how very deeply we agree at the core of things. It's coming increasingly clear to us that we resonate quite closely and deeply at that core, but our information processing differences can make it seem like we conflict when we don't. We just come to that core from different and even opposite paths. The differences and our lack of understanding how they work has led to lots of wasted energy. We're learning, though. I really think we are. I hope I'm correct about that. I can certainly understand the sense that the INFP/INFJ pairing can be pretty terrible. If we didn't have such a very strong bond at some really deep levels, I don't see how we would have made it to this point.

 

[yeghor]

It might be wise to separate Judging as function/Rational logic process vs passing judgement - which has been at the core of many issues raised in this thread

and many others involving Ni-dom Feeeeeelahz.

I am confused...

[MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] What constitutes as passing judgment then? What's the signifcance of it being momentary in ENTPs? and thru which function?

[MENTION=1769]Samvega[/MENTION] What was your aim when you said "Me - I figured you were an INFJ, interesting to find an INFJ with blank (blank used in place of a more personal detail that isn't germane to this context)."?

What were you hoping for when you notified the other person about their X trait being interesting (doesn't fit?) in an INFJ...?

If you weren't hoping for anything, why did you mention it at all?

I think the problem here is more about one person taking offense at what the other says... hence the feeling judged thing... ENTP has a Ti-reservoir (and it is not momentry, it's their personal database)... it contains collected judgments in it... They are expressed thru Ne.. whereas an INFJ expresses them thru Fe... One is just more straightforward...

This is how I think about it... I want to learn more and revise though... non-sarcastic approach is more welcome...

 

[Samvega]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] I will put more thought into your experience with this. There's a speaker and a receiver and clearly the issue stems from an inefficiency in conveying the information from one to the other. I tend to feel it's the job of the person getting the information to ask for clarification as the other option would result in needless over-clarification more often than not. There are many quotes that come to mind on this such as:

"One of the worst mistakes we can make when it comes to human relationships is attaching our motives to others actions." - Me

“If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?” - Rumi (wannabe namaste yogis have made me despise quoting him but it fits)


I think a good way of addressing this when you identify the issue is to respond to things with something like "so what I'm hearing you say is" which will allow the people to pinpoint misunderstandings and better learn their partner as well as how differently things can be expressed. My experience on this is that it's a T/F issue with the F changing the meaning or words of how something made them feel to what was actually said. I have noticed it time and time again where I say something and my wording is changed to and quoted as what they felt not what I said. I had a close INFJ friend once tell me 50% of what my Ni tells me is total trash which is why I needed to develop my Ti, to help me better sort out what to keep and what to toss out. Underdeveloped INFJs feel to just roll with whatever their Ni/Fe spits out in the same way ENTPs do with their Ne/Ti.

As for your relationship dynamic, that may be different, I think there's an INFJ/INTJ lesbian couple on here someplace as well. I would guess it would be a better fit with you both being women though honestly maybe it's pretty much the same as being with an INFP man After all, in response to an INFx inquiring about dating another INFx on here (they were a male/female couple) I gave some insight, paused and said "so basically just treat is like a lesbian relationship" or something along those lines.

You sound like you're on the right path with each other so keep up the exploring, it's awesome to see you two putting effort into understanding each other. I'm sure the gender does help honestly as I think more about it, I just got off the phone with an INFJ male whom I get along with very well, if I were to date men I think I would choose an INFJ male above any other type while I fail to even view INFJ females as a possibility anymore.

 

[yeghor]

What you're noting is primarily a general difference between Te and Fe. Te types tend to be literal across the board. Te doms are painfully literal at times. But even Te inferior tends to both use and take language at face value.

eta: wrt to Samvega's example, Ne dom in combination with Fe tert will make him more aware of the ways the word could be socially construed. Noting the direction of how it's construed will form part of the accretion of Si data on "how people react". A potentially literal meaning upon utterance is therefore helpful in this context. In his example, I would have sensed the Ne poised to go in different directions depending on what I said next. Which is why the best answer is, "What do you mean by interesting?'

[MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION], I think you cannot recognize the Fi\Fe-layer of interaction... You are full T (i.e. literal) when you say and read\hear things... F layer carries the subtext\emotional content of interaction, you cannot read\hear and speak the F layer...you are F-illiterate... unaware of your feelings and how your words come across... You need a T model of how F works... some kind of flowchart...

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], about the last part, you would if there were any past rapport with the ENTP...