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  1. #821
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That was really beautiful, and brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing from your heart.
    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    +1. a great example of Love, @Samvega.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    +2
    +3
    Open for interpretation.
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    Fell for the temptation: Nohari / Johari

  2. #822
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    It's only moving because we've all been raised by the most narcissistic generation in the history of mankind: baby boomers. I think it's pretty apparent to every generation since that children happen through you, not for you.
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.
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  3. #823
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I am glad mbti has improved your relationship with your partner. Any shared cult and its jargon is sure to have some positive effects. It could have been mbti or Scientology.

    You do understand though that the guru of this cult is Carl Jung who failed his psychoanalysis with Sigmund Freud because of Carl's father fixation. And as a result Carl threw his lot in with a new father figure, the Furhrer. Carl also admits in writing that, Psychological Types, is based on no empirical evidence. And futher that Katharine Cook Briggs and her daughter Isabel Briggs Myers plagiarised mbti from Jung's, Personality Types. And further neither Mrs Katherine Briggs nor her daughter Mrs Isabel Myers had any qualifications whatsoever in psychometrics.

    And further, applying any psychometric test to oneself and interpreting the results oneself guarantee the test will be unreliable and invalid.

    And joining a group using mbti does not make it any more valid and reliable.

    Yes, mbti is pseudo science. It preys upon our weaknesses.
    The key for me and my partner has been not to use it as any sort of belief system or ideology - just an inert limited tool.

    As for Jung - I'm not really a fan of Freud. I remember thinking he was intellectually brilliant but to my perception also pretty deeply twisted. In my brief foray into psychology as a field (high school, believe it or not, and then a bit in undergrad, many years ago), I liked Jung's approach a lot more than Freud's. I can't remember the specifics, but it's possible that Jung's stuff on the collective unconscious resonated more with my orientation toward the bigger picture/collective stuff rather than the Freudian individual as unit of analysis. And as for Jung and Hitler, first maybe Godwin's Law, second I didn't know that and I'm quite curious now about what the actual history is there.

    Anyway, I think it's kind of funny when people get so passionately into trying to prove or disprove the universal validity of MBTI. The arguments for and against are two sides of the same coin from a perspective like mine. So while you and whoever else you can find to play with you argue with each other about whether it's viable as a universalizable ideology/belief system/etc, I'll keep using it as a limited tool for specific practical purposes in my offline life. Ships passing in the night and all.

  4. #824
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Here's some speculation for everybody. I think most INFJ-related faults/behaviors can be explained with one word: Avoidant. I think we're wired for high risk avoidance and out of that several issues can arise. We look to and plan for the future. We use strategy to avoid whatever we perceive as bad consequences and direct towards what we perceive as good results. (Good for diplomacy and counseling purposes.) We avoid our own "bad" feelings. This isn't to say that we avoid all "bad" feelings, because I love wallowing in a good cry as long as it's caused by something I can control, like a sad movie (good for counseling and empathy purposes). But when I perceive those "bad" feelings as out of my control, then I want to avoid them like the plague. Stuff them down, get them under control, push them away, shove them outward onto other people, run away from them, avoid them. People who upset me? Avoid them or lash out at them or blame them--anything to avoid feeling my own feelings. Dance around or reframe an issue to avoid dealing with it and the emotions that come with it.

    It's not just INFJs, though. I can see it in my ISFJ sister, too, but her avoidance displays differently. Si lives and learns, while Ni imagines. So, Fe-aux. I don't know enough Fe-doms to say if it might show up there, too, but being J-dom might make a big difference. Risk avoidance.
    I'm guessing most types want to avoid risk with the possible exception of those ESTPs (: Really though, risk in life can't be avoided and often time needs to be faced to get it out of the way. My daughter is an INFP and one of the most avoidant people I personally know, she will lie, hide, ignore, anything it takes to avoid having a real and honest conversation she's uncomfortable with, she would do this for weeks before spending the 10 minutes it would take to properly address something. From my perspective, some types are simply better at seeing the value in not avoiding or in the case of types like Enneagram 7s the stress of avoiding something is far worse than just dealing with it which can make ENTPs look aggressive when in fact we're stressed or anxious about having to deal with the issue in the future and as such want to face it now.

    Haha, I just called my daughter, she's been avoiding me because she's worried I'm going to call her on or ask about something she did. She of course didn't answer, I normally just give her adequate processing time (a week or two) then I make it really impossible for her to avoid me, like, uncomfortably impossible.

    Dom-Fe doesn't work the same as all, they use it in a more social context than one of empathy as you would find in say the INFJ or ENTP.

  5. #825
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    The key for me and my partner has been not to use it as any sort of belief system or ideology - just an inert limited tool.
    Some of us thought the manuscript was just an inert limited tool, and some thought the book was just an inert limited tool, and some thought the telephone was an inert limited tool, and some thought the TV was an inert limited tool, and some even thought the internet was an inert limited tool, so it is no suprise to find some think mbti is an inert limited tool.

    But the simple fact is that we create our tools and then our tools create us.

    So the use of mbti is a moral issue.

    This is explained beautifully by the patron saint of the internet, Marshall McLuhan, in his book, Understanding Media.

    We may read, Understanding Media, by clicking on http://beforebefore.net/80f/s11/media/mcluhan.pdf

  6. #826
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I'm guessing most types want to avoid risk with the possible exception of those ESTPs (: Really though, risk in life can't be avoided and often time needs to be faced to get it out of the way. My daughter is an INFP and one of the most avoidant people I personally know, she will lie, hide, ignore, anything it takes to avoid having a real and honest conversation she's uncomfortable with, she would do this for weeks before spending the 10 minutes it would take to properly address something. From my perspective, some types are simply better at seeing the value in not avoiding or in the case of types like Enneagram 7s the stress of avoiding something is far worse than just dealing with it which can make ENTPs look aggressive when in fact we're stressed or anxious about having to deal with the issue in the future and as such want to face it now.

    Haha, I just called my daughter, she's been avoiding me because she's worried I'm going to call her on or ask about something she did. She of course didn't answer, I normally just give her adequate processing time (a week or two) then I make it really impossible for her to avoid me, like, uncomfortably impossible.

    Dom-Fe doesn't work the same as all, they use it in a more social context than one of empathy as you would find in say the INFJ or ENTP.
    I need to clear something up: my pet theory, which influences how I'm thinking about and approaching MBTI and function theory, is that the patterns we see might be explainable by neurological/physiological phenomena. So, when I say risk aversion, I'm thinking about psychological studies that are in the cache of info in my head and how they might apply. Overall, that means absolutely nothing, because the info in my head might be wrong, incomplete, or skewed by my own biases, beliefs, and perceptions.

    That said, your reply tells me that I was letting the perceived elegance of my conclusion cloud my thinking, so I need to be sure to stay open to new info and not solidify that conclusion. (Man, I'm sounding all pedantic here. )

    Let me try again later when I've taken off my taped up glasses and removed my leaky pocket pens....


    ETA: What's killing me, though, is that the article I linked to talks about perceiving risk differently and emotions playing a part in decisions involving risk, while another article (which I'm too lazy to find and link to atm) talks about how our perception of our emotions affects our interpretation of them. So, I'm an idiot because I've been trying to explain my perception through my perceptions...and once again, I hate my brain. Can the mind explain the mind? Maybe all I can ever say is that we perceive things differently, without being able to explain why we perceive things differently.

    ETA2: Thanks for the bolded. Perhaps that's part of how I've become more open--learning to face it now. I find that I still have a strong urge to put off or procrastinate, but then I've also noticed that I end up living with a low level current of anxiety or some other uncomfortable feeling and just need to take care of whatever it is--decide it one way or the other--instead of endlessly trying to find the path of least consequences/best results. Sometimes the best results are to just do it and then deal with it. Of course, then I can take that to the other extreme of wanting to take care of it ALL, right NOW!!!1! It really kind of sucks at times. Always a way to bring up that undercurrent of anxiety.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #827
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    It's only moving because we've all been raised by the most narcissistic generation in the history of mankind: baby boomers. I think it's pretty apparent to every generation since that children happen through you, not for you.
    Your overreacting, lovely. They lack experience thats all.

  8. #828
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    3) I highly doubt you will ever actually know the INFJ, they keep a lot to themselves, here's a prime example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    3) I think I'm open, but I'm probably not the best judge of that. Admittedly, there are areas that I still have difficulty talking openly about, even with a romantic partner, but I will say that I have difficulty talking about those areas rather than avoid them completely. Again, I might not be the best judge of that.
    I have to add a caveat to my original reply to this. I may think I'm being open, but I might not be communicating clearly. Or what I think I'm communicating isn't what's getting communicated (well, this one should be obvious by now ). I've found I can be very indirect while thinking that I'm being clear and direct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Are some types more prone to cheating, hell yes! I would say ESFPs and ISFJs are mush more prone to physical cheating, INFJs however I would call the most prone to cheating overall though more emotional cheating than physical cheating. I won't get into a debate over semantics as to what constitutes cheating, if it's an energy leak in the relationship in any way, it's cheating. With emotional cheating and the reason I see INFJs as being so prone to it, it's because there isn't a clear line like there would be if you got bent over a car and #&@$ed so they can justify it and over time justify more and more. Paired with their low relationship satisfaction (there are relationship studies on this as well as it being my own personal experience) and propensity to date types like INFPs, INTJs, ISTJs, fellow INFJs and those that won't call attention to their behaviors and you have what I would call a road map to dysfunction junction.
    I definitely can see how the bolded can happen. But I'd also like to hear your definition of emotional cheating. I'm asking because I think that some extraverted behavior (especially Pe-dom) gets labeled/misinterpreted as emotional cheating from an introverted perspective, simply because it's so extraverted, so I want to hear the extraverted perspective for comparison.

    And, as far as my own definition of emotional cheating goes, I see the opposite in myself because I tend to hyper-focus on the person I'm dating/married to. Again, this may be a place where the extremes come into play. I don't have enough data to say either way. And it's possible that I haven't looked that closely at myself in this area.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #829
    I want my account deleted
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    I'm considering starting a business called "Ex Surrogates." For a modest (okay, fine, not so modest) hourly rate, clients could hire actual or assumed members of the same MBTI type as their exes. These professional Ex Surrogates (tm) would serve as professional stand-ins onto whom clients could transfer all of their unresolved dysfunctional relationship issues.

    The only problem I see with my business model is that people can get the same services for free here at typologycentral.

    Damm you typologycentral for ruining my business!
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  10. #830
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I'm considering starting a business called "Ex Surrogates." For a modest (okay, fine, not so modest) hourly rate, clients could hire actual or assumed members of the same MBTI type as their exes. These professional Ex Surrogates (tm) would serve as professional stand-ins onto whom clients could transfer all of their unresolved dysfunctional relationship issues.

    The only problem I see with my business model is that people can get the same services for free here at typologycentral.

    Damm you typologycentral for ruining my business!
    You know, I feel sorry for you. Since we're playing armchair psychologists here, you must be in a lot of pain in order to feel such a need to control and demean. To not be able to see the basic humanness of the people you're making fun of. To not allow them to make their own mistakes and find their own way to the answers. I should know, because I've done the same thing and I've been doing it with you.

    Personally, I don't think you'll find many answers by continually avoiding any discussion and simply telling others what they should be talking about, and how they should talk about it, but I could be wrong. So, if this is the way you'll find your own answers, as long as you aren't breaking any rules, I'm going to stop trying to control and direct you, because I realize that that's what I've been doing at times. But I want you to know that the discussions in which I've been participating have proven to be productive to me, and, hopefully, to at least some of the other people who have participated in them, so, as long as I'm not breaking any rules, I'm going to continue having those discussions.

    You seem to really need this site to be something for you, which is understandable because it seems that most of the people here have that same need. Otherwise, none of us would be here.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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