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  1. #811
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    It's been especially (but not only) useful in my primary relationship with my partner. It's given us some language and concepts that have helped us communicate better and understand each other better (especially the differences in how we each process information and how that affects communication and action). So in our case, access to the language and concepts have had clear, though limited/bounded, positive impacts in our actual life together.
    I am glad mbti has improved your relationship with your partner. Any shared cult and its jargon is sure to have some positive effects. It could have been mbti or Scientology.

    You do understand though that the guru of this cult is Carl Jung who failed his psychoanalysis with Sigmund Freud because of Carl's father fixation. And as a result Carl threw his lot in with a new father figure, the Furhrer. Carl also admits in writing that, Psychological Types, is based on no empirical evidence. And futher that Katharine Cook Briggs and her daughter Isabel Briggs Myers plagiarised mbti from Jung's, Personality Types. And further neither Mrs Katherine Briggs nor her daughter Mrs Isabel Myers had any qualifications whatsoever in psychometrics.

    And further, applying any psychometric test to oneself and interpreting the results oneself guarantee the test will be unreliable and invalid.

    And joining a group using mbti does not make it any more valid and reliable.

    Yes, mbti is pseudo science. It preys upon our weaknesses.

  2. #812
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I know of no psychology department in any reputable university that teaches mbti.

    Psychology departments in reputable universities teach and train psychometricians. Psychometrics is the measurement of the psyche and in particular, personality traits.

    If you ask an astronomer about astrology, they will laugh at you. And if you ask a qualified psychometrician about mbti, they will also laugh at you.

    Astrology is a simple psychological trick and mbti is also a simple psychological trick.

    But of course we can't be tricked unless we want to be tricked.

    Prostitutes know this and perform tricks and so does astrology and mbti.
    Okay, so your argument is that you don't personally know of any schools that teach it (mine did and many others I know of do) and that some credible sources disagree with it. Isn't that just academic discourse as usual? If Academia doesn't espouse critical thought then it really serves no purpose. You're welcome to present research on testing validity and consistency if you want to actually argue its scientific basis instead of just making appeals to authority.
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  3. #813
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    ewww ewww I just saw all your pedantry above. Forget that response. I am not into petty internet arguments.

    *abort*
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  4. #814
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    ewww ewww I just saw all your pedantry above. Forget that response. I am not into petty internet arguments.

    *abort*
    Look, I hope you enjoy astrology and mbti and that they improve your personal relationships.

  5. #815
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    ETA: The two questions I keep coming back to are "what does unconditional love look like?" or "how is unconditional love demonstrated?". I can see the idealized version of it, but what is the realistic version of it and does that change with different perspectives? I do realize that I've veered away from your actual questions, but this is where I'm stuck in the process of trying to answer them.

    Maybe asap =/= two years for this question.
    My parents give me unconditional love, my highs and lows they're there, when they don't know what to say to me, they sit in awkward silence with me, no matter where I've been on my path they've held a light for me and even when the bulb has burned out or the batteries need charging, there they sit, in the darkness with me, still holding the flashlight as if to say "the lack of illumination isn't a result of our lack of willingness or trying". If I came home with a black, male, jewish, unemployed midget circus clown and introduce him as my future husband, despite their confusion (that I was gay), they would welcome him and be truly happy for my having found a partner to share my life with. If I were born 1,000 times, I would choose them each and every single time as my parents. They have ALWAYS allowed me the gift and space of knowing I could be true to myself and loved no less for doing so. We hit bumps, we disagree, we debate, we disappoint, we fall short but we love each other, deeply, unconditionally and they are the two people in this world I know would die well before ever turning away from me or not supporting me in anything I wanted to do, ever, no matter how much they disagreed with it.

    This is the love I give my children, this is love without conditions, this is love of who the person is, not who you want them to be or hope they'll become.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    Reading some of these responses to cheating now, it has become clear to me why there is a general accusation made.

    Cheating is lying. It's about not explicitly informing others of the facts. It's about not being forthright and direct about who you are and what your intentions are. It's deceit. I would agree this is something Fe users struggle with in particular, but I would rather just ascribe this difficulty to immature people in general. If you find you can't be direct in your communications, I have news for you: you're stuck at high school level communication skills. You're behind. Catch up to the rest of us adults.

    I have no problem telling it like it is. When I come across someone who also excels at this skill in life, I'm like phew! Let's dance
    Cheating is putting self before the relationship which, in a healthy relationship is paradoxically not putting yourself first. A healthy relationship is biologically like a reward system, what's good for one is good for both, so good for you is good for me is good for us. Cheating is not good for anybody, it's avoidance for the one doing it and it doesn't serve the partner or the relationship dynamic in any way. It's truly shooting oneself in their own foot as it damages the relationship unit. If the "team" or "relationship" isn't worth protecting, it isn't worth cheating either, it's worth leaving as the only reason to stay/cheat is an internal one of being unable to be alone which is all the more reason to leave as you're taking away years from the other person in the relationship.

    Are some types more prone to cheating, hell yes! I would say ESFPs and ISFJs are mush more prone to physical cheating, INFJs however I would call the most prone to cheating overall though more emotional cheating than physical cheating. I won't get into a debate over semantics as to what constitutes cheating, if it's an energy leak in the relationship in any way, it's cheating. With emotional cheating and the reason I see INFJs as being so prone to it, it's because there isn't a clear line like there would be if you got bent over a car and #&@$ed so they can justify it and over time justify more and more. Paired with their low relationship satisfaction (there are relationship studies on this as well as it being my own personal experience) and propensity to date types like INFPs, INTJs, ISTJs, fellow INFJs and those that won't call attention to their behaviors and you have what I would call a road map to dysfunction junction.

    To add another run do not walk to the list:

    7) If the INFJ you're interested in has a history of dating fellow introverts, stay clear, danger, red flag, an avoidance prone INFJ has breached the perimeter and no matter how electric and magical things start, chances are very high they won't end well.

    8) A healthy INFJ will seek you out, call you, pursue you (in an INFJ way), have an active social circle, allow them to speak their thoughts (not just agree with yours) and initiate contact, if they can't do that, they need some more cooking before taking them out of the oven.

  6. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    Okay, so your argument is that you don't personally know of any schools that teach it (mine did and many others I know of do) and that some credible sources disagree with it. Isn't that just academic discourse as usual? If Academia doesn't espouse critical thought then it really serves no purpose. You're welcome to present research on testing validity and consistency if you want to actually argue its scientific basis instead of just making appeals to authority.
    i am pretty sure he's just echoing david pittenger's MBTI review. worth a google.

    anyway, you are right that it is a debate, but they just talk passed each other:
    • to the people who criticize MBTI, the resulting peer review demonstrate a lack of consistency, showing that people don't maintain their MBTI test results over time thus proving that MBTI fails to capture one's personality.
    • to the people who favor MBTI, all this means is what they already know - MBTI tests are insufficient - and in fact the main activity in typology communities is to compensate for that very fact through typing on a case by case basis.


    IMO it's worth noting that while I vs. E spectrum is now largely accepted, the association with functions is not, and i think the question of function definitions is a very big part of it. IMO many of the current folk typology definitions going around are so fundamentally flawed that they can't fit with classifications of human. for instance, in Fi vs. Fe debates, Fi users will often think of Fe as shallow manipulation of other's emotional reactions and Fe users will often interpret Fi as a self centered egoism and self interest above all else. ofcourse, if either one of those was true, psychopathy and narcissism wouldn't be exceptional conditions they'd just be the default ground for half of the population, which is clearly not the case. equally problematic is the notion that intellect as well as original and creative thought is the exclusive realm of the intuitiveness, making the N vs. S dichotomy one that is shaped more by socioeconomic background then by information processing (which is how intellectual Si users becomes Ni users and creative Se users become Ne users). current MBTI tests don't compensate for these flaws, instead they are shaped by them and ending up testing for those very traits, which contribute to both perpetuating bad definitions and shaping tests that fail in consistency.

    p.s.
    i think we can all agree that a penn and teller "bullshit!" show on typology would be interesting to watch.

  7. #817
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    My parents give me unconditional love, my highs and lows they're there, when they don't know what to say to me, they sit in awkward silence with me, no matter where I've been on my path they've held a light for me and even when the bulb has burned out or the batteries need charging, there they sit, in the darkness with me, still holding the flashlight as if to say "the lack of illumination isn't a result of our lack of willingness or trying". If I came home with a black, male, jewish, unemployed midget circus clown and introduce him as my future husband, despite their confusion (that I was gay), they would welcome him and be truly happy for my having found a partner to share my life with. If I were born 1,000 times, I would choose them each and every single time as my parents. They have ALWAYS allowed me the gift and space of knowing I could be true to myself and loved no less for doing so. We hit bumps, we disagree, we debate, we disappoint, we fall short but we love each other, deeply, unconditionally and they are the two people in this world I know would die well before ever turning away from me or not supporting me in anything I wanted to do, ever, no matter how much they disagreed with it.

    This is the love I give my children, this is love without conditions, this is love of who the person is, not who you want them to be or hope they'll become.
    That was really beautiful, and brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing from your heart.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #818
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That was really beautiful, and brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing from your heart.
    +1. a great example of Love, @Samvega.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  9. #819
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That was really beautiful, and brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing from your heart.
    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    +1. a great example of Love, @Samvega.
    +2
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #820
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Here's some speculation for everybody. I think most INFJ-related faults/behaviors can be explained with one word: Avoidant. I think we're wired for high risk avoidance and out of that several issues can arise. We look to and plan for the future. We use strategy to avoid whatever we perceive as bad consequences and direct towards what we perceive as good results. (Good for diplomacy and counseling purposes.) We avoid our own "bad" feelings. This isn't to say that we avoid all "bad" feelings, because I love wallowing in a good cry as long as it's caused by something I can control, like a sad movie (good for counseling and empathy purposes). But when I perceive those "bad" feelings as out of my control, then I want to avoid them like the plague. Stuff them down, get them under control, push them away, shove them outward onto other people, run away from them, avoid them. People who upset me? Avoid them or lash out at them or blame them--anything to avoid feeling my own feelings. Dance around or reframe an issue to avoid dealing with it and the emotions that come with it.

    It's not just INFJs, though. I can see it in my ISFJ sister, too, but her avoidance displays differently. Si lives and learns, while Ni imagines. So, Fe-aux. I don't know enough Fe-doms to say if it might show up there, too, but being J-dom might make a big difference. Risk avoidance.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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