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  1. #801
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    1) INFJs are the least satisfied of all the types in romantic relationships this has nothing to do with their partners however so don't take it personal, just know that know matter who you are or what you do it will be the case.
    2) INFJs are extremely prone to cheating and swear it isn't so which paradoxically is why it is so.
    3) I highly doubt you will ever actually know the INFJ, they keep a lot to themselves, [...]
    4) If you feel ANY push/pull from them, run, don't walk, run!
    5) They will pull you in quickly with their desire to connect (Fe), once you're in pretty deeply, they will realize they're vulnerable and distance themselves (push/pull), if this happens, end things.
    6) I would not have sex with an INFJ for at least 3 months, seriously, they aren't made for it, get past #5 first and see what's there, proceed accordingly.
    1) I can't say with any certainty that INFJs are the least satisfied of all types in relationships because I haven't done the comparisons. However, from the few examples I've seen and my own experiences, a majority of us do seem to have difficulty being in and staying in committed relationships. At this point I can't tell you if that's from not being satisfied (I'm assuming from standards being too high, or too idealized) or if there are other factors involved.

    2) Again, I can't say with any certainty whether INFJs are extremely prone to cheating or not. However, I can see how they could cheat and swear it isn't so, due to certain thought processes and defense mechanisms. My own observations make me think that when it comes to cheating on a partner, INFJs tend to go to one extreme or the other--either they're extremely faithful, or they're extremely fickle. Personally, I ended up on one end of the spectrum when it came to cheating with a partner, and on the other end when it came to cheating on a partner. I had an affair with a married man when I was younger, and made every excuse in the book to convince myself that it was okay to cheat on his wife with him. But I couldn't and haven't cheated on any man I was with in any capacity (dating, living together, married). One relationship would have to end before I would begin another. I'm still not sure how that works for me. I'm speculating that since I didn't have to deal with seeing the hurt I caused the wife, I could rationalize it away, but I would have had a clear view of the hurt I was causing any guy I was cheating on, and would have had to deal with that, so I didn't do it.

    3) I think I'm open, but I'm probably not the best judge of that. Admittedly, there are areas that I still have difficulty talking openly about, even with a romantic partner, but I will say that I have difficulty talking about those areas rather than avoid them completely. Again, I might not be the best judge of that.

    4) I know the push/pull happens, but I have no real insight into it yet.

    5) See # 4. Like I said, no real insight yet, but some speculation as to how getting to know someone intimately in a short amount of time could relate to counseling, but not work very well in romantic relationships. I haven't thought about where vulnerability might come into play. Also, still considering some Fe info that was posted in a member blog that also addresses the Fe desire to connect.

    6) What do you mean by "they aren't made for it"? Is it related to # 5 and the push/pull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    The women INFJs I know are all pretty great girls. There is one that's an absolute nut job and she still would never cheat. She just doesn't even enter relationships. She has 1-3 year long dry spells of absolutely nothing. Won't do casual sex at all. In fact all the INFJ women I know are quite prone to dry spells and avoiding casual sex. I'm surprised to hear the cheating thing. I'd actually really like to meet a promiscuous INFJ chick. Sounds fascinating and absolutely fucked up.


    Actually, as with the cheating issue, I've managed to end up on both ends of the spectrum as far as promiscuity and dry spells are concerned. Before I got married, I had the aforementioned affair, plus two ltr's, and several flings and one-night-stands. After my divorce, I had a small dry spell, then a very bad dating experience, and then a complete desert of a dry spell. I find that I am constantly at war with the Catholic guilt and societal mores about sex that were instilled in me growing up.


    ETA: More speculation/reframing on @Samvega's # 2: It's also possible that not having to directly confront the wife meant that any shame I felt about hurting her could be pushed aside, while the shame I would feel about cheating on a partner would be right there whenever I was with him (a more selfish framing than what I speculated about above--caring about avoiding my feelings of shame rather than caring about his feelings of hurt). Or, it's possible that it seemed like too much work to me to cheat on a partner--keeping track of the lies, putting on a false front, physically keeping up with two guys, etc.

    ETA2: I had another opportunity to cheat with a married man after my divorce but before the bad dating experience. By that time in my life I had more self-control, and I ended up not acting on the feelings.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #802
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    actually @Hard, you may have striked a nerve that is right on topic...

    to what degree do people find self-love, or the sense of being "worthy of love" (their own, other's, etc), to be conditional?
    to what degree do people in general? to what degree do INFJs in particular?
    My mind is doing the same thing with this question that it did with the doorslam description--dancing around it and asking "but what about this situation?" type questions. Too fluid. I'll try to work it out and answer asap (asap also being a fluid term meaning who the heck knows when that'll be ).



    ETA: The two questions I keep coming back to are "what does unconditional love look like?" or "how is unconditional love demonstrated?". I can see the idealized version of it, but what is the realistic version of it and does that change with different perspectives?
    I do realize that I've veered away from your actual questions, but this is where I'm stuck in the process of trying to answer them.

    Maybe asap =/= two years for this question.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #803
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Te is about getting results. If it gets results what's wrong with it?
    As of this writing it's not a sticky, so it looks like maybe it was just a (damn funny IMO) joke or something else other than a simple action.

    Anyway, about Te - yeah, I was thinking about Te when reading that exchange I posted and especially @highlander's reply, and I had a similar thought that Te-aux might be involved.

    But: I don't know if Te-aux in a Ni-dom structurally operates anything like Fe-aux in a Ni-dom. If there is a structural similarity as aux judging functions in a Ni-dom, Ni-dom/Te-aux "results" would be defined according to the specific overarching purpose or goal of a collective task, project etc. And if that's accurate to a Te-aux/Ni-dom approach, there would be more than one possible purposes or overarching goals in any situation. And so the desired "results" would vary according to specific purpose/goal in each specific case (I feel like quite possibly other INTJs have described something like this in conversations with me in the past - roughly, needing the specific purpose or goal as anchor for the results sought - but don't remember where or have time to find it. I could also be misunderstanding or misremembering).

    I also don't have time or energy to make verbal and type out some of the possible simple and more complex purposes or goals that could lead to making this thread a sticky based on the content of that exchange I quoted, but trust that others can make that assessment if it's of interest. Similarly, there are other possible purposes/goals that would have different desired results sought, and that different and actions in this realm might serve ... and I'm sure others can figure that out as well if interested.

    But anyway, it isn't a sticky anymore/at this moment.

  4. #804
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Mole, I think that after this response that all other discussion on this matter should be placed on another thread or on my blog because I do not wish to derail this thread any further.

    The wind is not given to jealousy and has no need to be underground, although the underground has need of the wind’s presence, or at least the air from which the wind is made as it aerates the soil and makes growth on the surface possible and even subterranean creatures such as moles need to breathe. The wind does not care how it is perceived, nor does it set out to purposely single out one little mole and ruffle his fur or push him over and the wind does communicate, in whispers, in howls, through the trees and the dry grasses, through roars and gusts. If the wind comes to the dock it is because it chooses to do so and for that reason only. The wind blows wherever it wants and answers to no earthly being.

    Still, I have decided that I would like to answer your question about positivity, because the wind is also transparent. But first, what do I take you for? My first answer was: A mole. But I realize that maybe you are smart enough to figure that one out, so I will answer you more deeply. I take you for an individual who sees the world through different eyes than those with which I see the world. I think that maybe we, as people, go around each believing that we see the world as it is but in truth the world is as we see it. We each have our own unique worldview. So what do I take you for? A earth dweller who, like me, lives upon this planet, but sees a different world than the one I see. Each of us sees a different world.

    You say, “I dunno. I don't know if I can stand it anymore. I don't know if I can bear to hear another positive statement from you.”
    Honestly? I had no idea that I was deliberately making positive statements. However, perhaps positivity and negativity are the results of choices, either subconscious or conscious, that we make at some point in our early lives and after years of practice, they become habits. A normally positive person may, on occasion, be negative (which explains what you call cracks) and a normally negative person may at times may be positive. Even so, you say my positivity bothers you, but why? Why should bother anyone if I find treasure in a garbage heap? Should I give away my treasure because others walked over it a million times but could not see it because they focused on the garbage?

    And why should you be afraid that I will burst? Would that harm you or are you saying you care for me as a person in general and are afraid for my sanity?

    And who is we?
    We are not yet at the stage of asking you
    And what am I defending against? Anything that tries to take me from my “center” from the core of who I am. So long as I remember who I am, my true self, nothing and no one in this world can shake me. I like me. In fact, I love me. That bothers some people, but it is true.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #805
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Wow.

    Even when I have cognitively assessed that something is completely messed-up and beyond all hope of being even minimally sane (which is pretty much my assessment of this site), there's always a part of me in the background of my attention that's actively questioning that assessment and wondering if I'm being too harsh.

    And even now I wonder if this is a momentary little joke, the site owner making this thread a sticky for the reasons noted above. Because if it's not a temporary little joke - wow. The new owner making a sticky and apparently interested in attracting new audiences to this site with a threads like this?

    *waits to see if it's actually a temporary joke. If so, it's actually pretty damn funny*
    You are completely right. Mbti has no more truth value than astrology. And astrology is one of our most popular superstitions, so we shouldn't be surprised that mbti is popular as well.

    So the interesting question is why is a superstition so popular? What is the psychology of a popular superstition?

    This is after all a site devoted to psychology so why not explore the psychology of the popular superstitions, astrology and mbti?

  6. #806
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I regard the wind with the height of suspicion. As you know there is absolutely no wind in my warm and cosy home underground. The moment I emerge I am fighting the wind. It tries to push me over, it ruffles my velvet fur coat, it will never stand still long enough to have a decent conversation. At the beach it whips the sand into my face, and on a picnic it blows the rug and spills the picnic all over the place. But sometimes the wind conspires with the cold to chill me to the bone, and I can hardly wait to find myself warm and cosy underground once again.

    And the wind, jealous of my snug underground home, enters a malicious agreement with the cold and the wet to create life threatening conditions - the wind is trying to kill me.

    Believe you me, the wind will soon find itself in the dock answering the most acute questions in cross examination. And it will do you no good to plead that you have no need to explain.

    What do you take me for?

    The wind also breathes life into you and ignites both the living and the ethereal flame. It means no harm, it is there as many other forces are there, to flow from one point to another. If you would whisper your words, the wind may carry them around the world in nigh a heartbeat and answer you if you would listen. Speaking to the wind merely comprises of adjusting your frequency, just as all living things require of you and you too ask for some degree of attunement. The wind could have no less intentions as it is merely moving, rushing between least possible resistance barriers and playing with the leaves that fall to the ground.

    Why cannot you attune with it? To share the heat, become one and sing in joy? I fathom not your dislike. Has not the flames ever engulfed you and made your heart shriek of madness? of Terror? Those forest fires are spread by me, those blissful rains that quench the thirst of destruction are taken by me, that which spreads life over the planet is me and I shall not let the meek write mythical inaccurate texts about how vengeful I am. At times, I reign the day or night with madness in my heart but so do you young Mole. One day you wreak havoc for the worms in the ground, in the other you sit there with your belly in the sun and tasting my sweet stillness.

    Have I answered your call?
    Open for interpretation.
    Jo
    Fell for the temptation: Nohari / Johari

  7. #807
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    You are completely right. Mbti has no more truth value than astrology. And astrology is one of our most popular superstitions, so we shouldn't be surprised that mbti is popular as well.

    So the interesting question is why is a superstition so popular? What is the psychology of a popular superstition?

    This is after all a site devoted to psychology so why not explore the psychology of the popular superstitions, astrology and mbti?
    Umm...seriously? You are aware that there has been extensive research into confirming the validity of MBTI testing and that many accredited academic institutions and top organization employ this testing - right? So there has been proven statistical significance to formal testing and it is accepted as an approximation for personality traits.

    This isn't superstition. This is a legitimately practiced personality metric system.
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  8. #808
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Reading some of these responses to cheating now, it has become clear to me why there is a general accusation made.

    Cheating is lying. It's about not explicitly informing others of the facts. It's about not being forthright and direct about who you are and what your intentions are. It's deceit. I would agree this is something Fe users struggle with in particular, but I would rather just ascribe this difficulty to immature people in general. If you find you can't be direct in your communications, I have news for you: you're stuck at high school level communication skills. You're behind. Catch up to the rest of us adults.

    I have no problem telling it like it is. When I come across someone who also excels at this skill in life, I'm like phew! Let's dance
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  9. #809
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    You are completely right. Mbti has no more truth value than astrology. And astrology is one of our most popular superstitions, so we shouldn't be surprised that mbti is popular as well.

    So the interesting question is why is a superstition so popular? What is the psychology of a popular superstition?

    This is after all a site devoted to psychology so why not explore the psychology of the popular superstitions, astrology and mbti?
    Well, as for me personally: I'm more into whether and how cognitive function and MBTI concepts offer basic practical value to strengthen my communication and relationships in real life than whether this has has any sort of universal/objective/etc etc truth value overall.

    On the practical side in my own life: I myself have found cognitive-function-based MBTI to be a useful, though of course limited, tool that has had some positive impact. It's been especially (but not only) useful in my primary relationship with my partner. It's given us some language and concepts that have helped us communicate better and understand each other better (especially the differences in how we each process information and how that affects communication and action). So in our case, access to the language and concepts have had clear, though limited/bounded, positive impacts in our actual life together.

    This site, though - this site's MBTI discussions are all too often like the Jerry Springer Show of typology: Pain! Dysfunction! Maximum Drama! Ex Issues! All wrapped up in the language of cognitive function and MBTI type. What draws the most interest and energy here seems most often to be a tabloid approach to the whole thing.

    eta: That said, if I understand you correctly, I think you raise an interesting area of inquiry. I'm more into cultural/sociological analysis than psychological analysis, but the whole question of what would make MBTI broadly appealing is pretty interesting IMO. If this site is any indication, it certainly isn't that people are using it to assist better communication and understanding across information processing differences in their actual relationships with others.

  10. #810
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    Umm...seriously? You are aware that there has been extensive research into confirming the validity of MBTI testing and that many accredited academic institutions and top organization employ this testing - right? So there has been proven statistical significance to formal testing and it is accepted as an approximation for personality traits.

    This isn't superstition. This is a legitimately practiced personality metric system.
    I know of no psychology department in any reputable university that teaches mbti.

    Psychology departments in reputable universities teach and train psychometricians. Psychometrics is the measurement of the psyche and in particular, personality traits.

    If you ask an astronomer about astrology, they will laugh at you. And if you ask a qualified psychometrician about mbti, they will also laugh at you.

    Astrology is a simple psychological trick and mbti is also a simple psychological trick.

    But of course we can't be tricked unless we want to be tricked.

    Prostitutes know this and perform tricks and so does astrology and mbti.

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