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  1. #771
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    This is very well stated!
    I dunno. I don't know if I can stand it anymore. I don't know if I can bear to hear another positive statement from you. They say what goes up must come down but Ene never comes down to negativity. I am afraid Ene you will burst with all that negativity inside you. Already we get hints you are starting to creak and rumble. But we are almost dared by you to see any negativity in you. How dare you say I am negative, see, see, I will defend myself with my martial arts.

    We are not yet at the stage of asking you, what are you defending against. We are just watching this massive psychological defence against we know not yet what.

  2. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Her: "That's nice. And what does cheating have to do with someone's cognitive processes?"
    just explain to her: you would never betray her, and if she ever experiences otherwise for whatever distorted reason, then she should know that (in your words) "based on what will make sense to you, her specific PoV won't be worthy of an investment of energy and attention. she might find it more palatable to think its you who can't see other perspectives, but she should rest assured, you can, you just won't be interested in her particular perspective. it won't have any utility value or a basis of reciprocal respect, or whatever it is that you found works for you in the ongoing process of useful shifting of perspective as Ni-dom/Fe-aux". essentially, while for her it might, for you it won't count...

    or you know, this:

    which is based entirely on how your cognition processes information.

    for what it's worth, i doubt INFJs are more likely to cheat in the first place, but i do think they will have a more difficult time acknowledge it when they do. you could argue that there's an enabler element there for a pathology - if it's based on the past behaviors and if someone isn't willing to avoid certain behaviors because thinking of them as cheating would mean you've cheated in the past - but i don't think Ni doms are as easily bound to building on their past perspectives to began with - just making a new one comes more naturally (essentially the NP's are projecting inferior Si on analyzing Ni doms - that's incorrect).

  3. #773
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think one of the problems is that from the outside, we appear much more malleable and pleasant than we actually are, which facilitates some other types of people superimposing their hopes of what we are on us. Then when we don't turn out to be what they hoped, they get upset. We also get more up front the more someone matters to us, which can feel like being harder on them than on others, but is in a weird sort of a way a compliment that we are invested enough and willing to feel vulnerable enough that we'll do that. I think more often than not though it is seen as an ever rising, impossible to meet bar.
    This is who the INFJ presents not who's projected onto them. Look at the INTJ, with the Fi, they just speak the truth, bluntly and free of concern for how it's perceived on the other end, they present who and what they are. With the Fe, I would say it's the INFJ superimposing who they want to be seen as or their ideal self than it is others, remember, these are the people you keep in your life and those drawn to the persona you present so they speak volumes about who you are not the other way around.

    The issue with the second part of what you've said is you've already built the building on a weak foundation as you don't know when meeting somebody who you're going to get closer to and who you aren't.

  4. #774
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think I agree with Samvega that INFJs are generally the least satisfied of all types in romantic relationships. Even in a hypothetical way, I just want more than I think I would be likely to get in the way of getting intimacy at the same time as shared goals, shared faith, similar attitudes towards family, some freedom, contribution to practical matters etc. I don't think any of those things are bad to want, nor do I think I am looking for a perfect man, or have a laundry list of attributes I want in a person that must tick off all the boxes. It's just that as I look around me, I truly don't think I would be content in the vast majority of situations I see. While gratitude and optimism isn't that difficult for me, I always would be looking towards how things could be, instead of how things are.

    I can see how many INFJs and cheating could go together, but I disagree that it's basic to every INFJ's nature. I think it's more an unhealthy way of coping or communicating that when things aren't going well, an INFJ could be susceptible to (as every type could be prone to do, but triggered by different reasons and circumstances/motivations than the next type). When I've been in relationships, even in the longest term one, which wasn't going smoothly, I don't remember ever feeling the slightest temptation towards cheating. If I'm in, I'm in. I think it's when people have given up hope, or when they quit communicating that they are most vulnerable to that happening.

    You are right that INFJs tend to do thinking about stuff that matters, but are bad at getting around to ever doing anything with it that would make that information useful to a wider audience. It feels really overwhelming to create what you can only hazily see in your mind's eye and the more important it is, the harder it is to do. Very annoying, I'm sure and certainly not fair for them to be upset about if they won't do something with it.

    I don't really think that the push/pull vulnerability thing is an inherent part of INFJ nature either. I do think it is common though in INFJs who have been hurt and are not functioning in a healthy way. For that reason, I wouldn't rush into a relationship with them, till I really knew what I was working with.

    Agree about waiting to have sex - I guess I know some promiscuous INFJs, but generally, they need more time for anything than a lot of types because of processing time. More time to get to know people, more time to get close to people, more time to interact with people, more time after a break up. The processing time comment isn't 100% fair. I mean, it is a legitimate thing and it's only after seeing a pattern emerge and also trying our best to change it in some way that it will get brought into the open. I can absolutely see how others might not be up for that though and I also see how it feels unfair to process it all internally and then pronounce a verdict.

    I think that INFJs are more prone to hiding things they are embarrassed or ashamed of, or staying quiet when they shouldn't than they are to straight up lying. That is problematic because it is lying nonetheless and has to be faced as such. For me, in part it's a matter of not wanting to disappoint, but it also has something to do with more than that, at least for me. I don't think it is a matter of trying to be duplicitous and create a persona or to dupe anyone. As I've gotten older, I've recognized more and more where I tend to want to bridge the gap between who I am right now, and how I want other people to experience who I am. I don't think it's that I want to stay bad and just pretend I'm good, but rather that I so badly want to be that other person even in front of myself, but am not there. I think that's part of the danger - it doesn't seem as deceitful as it actually is. I guess I can't speak for other INFJs in that sense. In my case enneagram type probably contributes as well (1w2 so/sx). It's something I really have to be on guard about in myself though particularly with the people whose regard matters to me most. Strangely enough, I am more likely to let things hang out more in that sense in people who are acquaintances or casual friends than close family members or a significant other. On the other hand, I am pretty transparent and don't lie well at all, so as long as communication is happening between me and the other person, it is very hard to hide anything for long. Tendency towards embarrassment (especially in front of others) tends to sometimes induce unreasonable stubbornness as well, but if the person says something and then leaves me alone for a bit, I usually am pretty receptive to considering what they have to say.

    If you feel push/pull from ANYONE in a relationship, I would suggest running rather than walking (not only INFJs). I wish I had understood this a long time ago. It often indicates not knowing what you want out of the relationship (and therefore not being able to state those needs clearly), insecurity (which results in lying, or building up a false persona), or fear of vulnerability (which makes honesty and intimacy impossible). Often it also skews the balance of power towards one of the people in the relationship taking less responsibility but retaining more of the decision-making power.
    Impressively well written and insightful.

  5. #775
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I wouldn't say I'm "fed up" with any function, more the misuse of said functions, being an Fe user, I've done it myself. With INFJs, I just sort of see them for what they are now and they aren't very attractive to me in terms of sharing my life with them or being emotionally invested. I like INFJs but feel INFJs are best when they focus on humanity and not personal relationships as they struggle so much with them and maybe in part people struggle to recognize the value in what INFJs can potentially offer.

    I would agree with the not listening to what they say thing, my best dating advice if anybody chooses to go down this path with an INFJ is as follows:

    1) INFJs are the least satisfied of all the types in romantic relationships this has nothing to do with their partners however so don't take it personal, just know that know matter who you are or what you do it will be the case.
    2) INFJs are extremely prone to cheating and swear it isn't so which paradoxically is why it is so.
    3) I highly doubt you will ever actually know the INFJ, they keep a lot to themselves, here's a prime example:

    "Around 1666, Isaac Newton locked himself in his room for a while and, basically, invented calculus. But despite the enormous importance of this invention, for some reason, Newton didn’t tell anyone about it for years afterwards. He mentioned some of the basics in an annotation to a footnote somewhere, and actually used calculus in his major physics works, but never published the original paper on calculus itself. A few years later, a man named Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz also invented calculus, completely independently of Newton’s work. Newton got fairly upset about this, accusing Leibniz of plagiarizing from, well, the papers that he had failed to show anybody."

    This is pretty classic INFJ behavior, lock themselves in a room, invent some important world changing shit, never mention it, get pissed when you don't acknowledge the accomplishment they never mentioned... to anybody... ever.

    4) If you feel ANY push/pull from them, run, don't walk, run!
    5) They will pull you in quickly with their desire to connect (Fe), once you're in pretty deeply, they will realize they're vulnerable and distance themselves (push/pull), if this happens, end things.
    6) I would not have sex with an INFJ for at least 3 months, seriously, they aren't made for it, get past #5 first and see what's there, proceed accordingly.
    I have a deep bottomless well in my soul for drama and romantic torture so this bullshit would probably suit me.

    The women INFJs I know are all pretty great girls. There is one that's an absolute nut job and she still would never cheat. She just doesn't even enter relationships. She has 1-3 year long dry spells of absolutely nothing. Won't do casual sex at all. In fact all the INFJ women I know are quite prone to dry spells and avoiding casual sex. I'm surprised to hear the cheating thing. I'd actually really like to meet a promiscuous INFJ chick. Sounds fascinating and absolutely fucked up.

    I find that I am drawn to INFJs as of late because I'm a deeply screwed up person and I sense an unconditional kindness in INFJs. I just feel safe around them. Like they on the whole would abhor some of the things I've done and some of the things I believe, but in some weird contradicting turn of events are able to accept them on an individual basis. They're each like a modern day Jesus. You can be fucked up and stuff so long as you repent to them or something. And now I'm beginning to think I need to be psychoanalyzed for being drawn to that. I'm not even catholic I swear.

    So I had casual sex with an INFJ a few weeks ago. It was so amazing that I hate them a little for it. Like who puts on the sexual performance of a life time for a one night stand? That's actually really mean. That oxytocin shit it real people. If you give someone multiple orgasms with no intention of seeing them again then you deserve to be flogged and hung in the village square. And now I'm back to religious analogies...
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  6. #776
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    and I sense an unconditional kindness in INFJs. I just feel safe around them. Like they on the whole would abhor some of the things I've done and some of the things I believe, but in some weird contradicting turn of events are able to accept them on an individual basis. They're each like a modern day Jesus. You can be fucked up and stuff so long as you repent to them or something.
    I don't know about this. IMO INFJ's are pretty darn conditional with their kindness. I mean, everyone is (unconditional love does not exist to me), but INFJ's and Fe-doms/aux's in general are fairly conditional. You have to meet a certain criteria in order to get it. That's how Fe works: it considers the environment, how people fit in with it and acts accordingly. It's actually Fi that is much more likely to be "unconditional" because in essence, it has a much stronger drive to be fair to every individual. It might just not seem rational how Fe divies up the care, but believe me it's calculated.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
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    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  7. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I don't know about this. IMO INFJ's are pretty darn conditional with their kindness. I mean, everyone is (unconditional love does not exist to me)
    i'm not sure i can describe how terrifying i find the fact that this came out of an INFJ's son.

  8. #778
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    i'm not sure i can describe how terrifying i find the fact that this came out of an INFJ's son.
    Why is it terrifying? We see it all the time around us anyway. My moms love is conditional (everyones is), there are some things that I could do that would cause her to write me off. A long time ago she explicitly told me that if she found I murdered someone that she couldn't handle that and might not be able to love me anymore. Which, is perfectly reasonable. Also, the way she responded to me becoming atheist really showed me that she has a level of conditionality with some things.

    My love for people is conditional too. Could people I love do things that would end that? Absolutely.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  9. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    My moms love is conditional (everyones is), there are some things that I could do that would cause her to write me off. A long time ago she explicitly told me that if she found I murdered someone that she couldn't handle that and might not be able to love me anymore. Which, is perfectly reasonable. Also, the way she responded to me becoming atheist really showed me that she has a level of conditionality with some things.

    My love for people is conditional too. Could people I love do things that would end that? Absolutely.
    i don't relate:
    my parents - both Fi users who so often and annoyingly prioritize values and beliefs about "doing the right thing" despite the fact everybody affected ends up being worst off or even harmed for following them, my mother in particular truly finds some of my past decisions disagreeable to her core values, while my father always had increasingly high expectations in his meritocratic idealism, yet their love was never conditioned on either of those.
    for me, my ethics are a tool/guidelines for me to be better for people i care about, they can't surpass people i care about: my son isn't an extension for my ideals or a tool for me to convey them, he is the dominant share of the reason they have any value in the first place. the only reason i want him to have them is for him to have positive relationships in his life and benefit from them. if he'd be a murderer i'd eventually be disappointed, i'd feel guilty as fuck and ask where i went wrong, but my most dominant reaction would be dread for his safety. would i be a horrible person for helping my son hide a body or get out of trial? maybe, but being a good person isn't my purpose for ethics to began with. the core of it is: his well being is more important then mine.

    romantic love? conditional as fuck. friendship too. even the love a child has to their parents.... but not the reverse, not always.
    it might be all you know, but it's not the upper bound, and judging by societies widespread nepotism, it's not even the most common.

  10. #780
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    i don't relate:
    my parents - both Fi users who so often and annoyingly prioritize values such as "doing the right thing" despite the fact everybody affected ends up being worst off or even harmed for following them, my mother in particular truly finds some of my past decisions disagreeable to her core values, while my father always had increasingly high expectations in his meritocratic idealism, yet their love was never conditioned on either of those.
    for me, my ethics are a tool/guidelines for me to be better for people i care about in the first place, they can't surpass people i care about: my son isn't an extension for my ideals or a tool for me to convey them, he is the dominant share of the reason they have any value in the first place. the only reason i want him to have them is for him to have positive relationships in his life and benefit from them. if he'd be a murderer i'd eventually be disappointed, i'd feel guilty as fuck and ask where i went wrong, but my most dominant reaction would be dread for his safety. would i be a horrible person for helping my son hide a body or get out of trial? maybe, but being a good person isn't my purpose for ethics to began with. the core of it is: his well being is more important then mine.

    romantic love? conditional as fuck. friendship too. even the love a child has to their parents.... but not the reverse, not always.
    it might be all you know, but it's not the upper bound, and judging by societies widespread nepotism, it's not even the most common.
    I understand where you're coming from, but this really just goes off on a tangent that gets away from what I was talking about in the first place. As far as the ethics issue? I'm just going to leave that alone (don't feel like going down that rabbit hole right now).

    What I am saying is that I find it really hard to believe everyone doesn't have "conditions" that need to bet met. Whether they are personal, objective, internal, external, w/e. Conditions that need to be met for love to be felt towards a person. I suppose it's possible for people to truly be unconditional about it, but I see that as something that's really rare.

    Honestly in some cases I actually think feeling love towards someone is downright stupid and completely unworthy (but that's my Fe talking which seems to be a rather unsavory thing for people to take here so I won't go into it beyond mentioning it, probably shouldn't have in the first place, but it's late so too late). My dad is one of those people who'd throw himself over a bomb to save me, but mom I don't think so. Knowing that is nice, but honestly? If I did something that caused them to stop loving me and right me off? I might not agree with it, but I wouldn't get upset with the principal of the matter. As a kid my parents very frequently told me "I'll never stop loving you." TBH, I have always found it to be an incredibly vacuous statement. My dad got very upset with me when I was a kid for asking him for why he loved me when I was unsatisfied with is reasons (I found them to be trite) and even asking why in the first place. Eh, I'm going off topic.

    I don't think I'll ever be a parent though. I don't want to be, I think I'd be horrible at it for a wide variety of reasons, so I'll never really "experience" the other end. Even so, I suspect I'd still be the same in this regard (and hence one of many reasons I feel I'd be an unfit parent).
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


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