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  1. #741
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I don't disagree but would add that in a perfect world there may be less of a difference, in some family dynamics the difference may be less noticeable (e.g. my daughter is a 9 but being raised by a 7w8 is more assertive than you would expect from a 9). My perception and experience has been that for female INFJs societal expectations reenforces and reaffirms their worst qualities where as for males it challenges those same qualities and forces them to adjust and grow.
    Could you elaborate more on these 'worst qualities'? If you are talking about a tendency toward disconnect with the real world, then I think you might have something. I know that in the traditional environment I grew up in, a lack of groundedness in males is not really going to work. I haven't ever experienced non-traditional environments, and also I've never known a female INFJ in childhood in either type of environment, so I don't know if this holds true for them.

    Female INFJs, please comment?


    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    For whatever reason my experience with INFPs while I would think would be the same proves opposite as the INFP females I know seem to do better and the males seem to "adjust" with often times more passive aggressive behaviors or having a more extroverted sensor persona. Clearly these aren't "rules" but my observations.
    Well, that is a hard one. I haven't known any confirmed INFPs in real life, and online I've only heard them on interaction videos. I think that the traditional INFP modus operandi would not be well received in males, but of course that is equally true for INFJs. INFJs are fairly plastic, but perhaps INFPs are less so due to Fi. I am really not sure . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    With INFJs females I've experienced the same exact issues over, and over, and over with them flat out denying it, as if they reinvent reality. I actually was in the INFJ facebook group and commented on some observations along these lines. Interestingly enough one girl was hugely offended and defended INFJs with vigor swearing an INFJ could never. The funny thing was she didn't know I was using a different facebook name and I was the guy she'd been cheating on her boyfriend with (I didn't know, she was lying to both) years earlier. When I responded to tell her who I was (not what had happened out of respect for her privacy) she actually talked to one of the INFJ admins in the group and had me kicked out.
    Deservedly, I want to say. You don't sound very trustworthy after an admission like that. Why were you using different names on FaceBook? She probably thought you were stalking her, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Think about the INFJ poster children, Jesus, Sam Harris, Gandhi, MLK, all men.
    Almost all the poster children of every type are men. Men have done most everything in recorded history; only in the last ten or fifteen years has it become likely that history-making events will be driven by a woman. Given that INFJs are supposed to do 'social change' as their big thing, that's a pretty historical thing, and there just aren't that many opportunities for it to happen. So we'll have to wait before we start using something like that as evidence.

    Some would argue that even today, women are far less likely to be in the leadership positions that get written up as 'history changing'. We'll have to see society change a bit more; give it another twenty years and we'll see what things look like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Mind you, this isn't directed towards any single person but my experience with INFJs. If you notice, there are a couple INFJs that are very well regarded on TypeC and post often yet have stayed clear of this thread (or any thread where I'm noting these observations for that matter) completely, want to take a guess at why?
    Well, I'm not 100% sure of being an INFJ, and I'm not well regarded on TypoC because I don't necessarily have enough technical knowledge yet for that, but I'll take a shot at your remarks . . .

  2. #742
    Senior Member Eluded_One's Avatar
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    Propaganda anyone?
    “If you worry about what might be, and wonder what might have been, you will ignore what is.” -anonymous

  3. #743
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Mane I should attempt to clarify.

    We are an awesome team as far as working together goes. We talk very easily and respect each other. We laugh a lot. We are both passionate about our art. I just meant that, because we naturally flow well together had we met at different points in our lives (say before we both had become involved with other people) that we might have ended up with a very different kind of relationship; still, I'm sort if glad we didn't. I suppose a true and honest friendship is of far more value and has far less potential for boundary/ possessive-type issues. Maybe, that's why ENTP males have successful friendships with INFJ males. Ha! I just have to ensure that he never notices I'm female!
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #744
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    maybe, but ask yourself this:
    while you don't experience the same brute wall of willful ignorance, do the more intimate relationships in his life do? his past and current partners? his family?

    i think for both genders of the type, there is a connection between the degree of intimacy and the degree of betrayal they seem to experience:
    the more personal and intimate your knowledge about them is, the more threatening it is to their sense of self when your view of who they are conflicts with their own.
    contrasting that is respect: the more mutual respect you have for each other, the more they can trust you to be their ally on their side, the harder it will be for them to invent and super impose on you a narrative of malicious intent.

    my theory is that it isn't who he is which marks most of the difference, its who you are for him: a buddy.
    male bonds are often built more on respect and comradery then on intimacy and affection, increasing the fortitude on one hand and decreasing the vulnerability in the other.
    The males I know are fairly solid in terms of their friends, family, and partners. I do see some of the same relationship issues with them but they don't deny their existence the way I've experienced with many female INFJs and the males are willing to accept some of the more blunt wording when I'm pointing something out.

    You could be onto something in terms of intimacy being a factor as I would classify the INFJ as the least transparent of all types. I say least only because of their level of awareness which they choose to keep to themselves not because I think they're flat out the least willing to share. With my above statement regarding male INFJs to keep things fair I'm comparing mostly my friend relationships which includes a single, bi, INFJ male that I'm very intimate with in terms of the things we share and talk about with each other.

    I will say that I've also learned how to better deal with INFJs in terms of not pulling back the curtain on things I know they will refuse to look at. This means with most of them a relationship would be out of the question as I could never be myself but their friendship is still rewarding. And their are a few I can totally be myself with and hopefully they feel I offer them that same safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    Could you elaborate more on these 'worst qualities'? If you are talking about a tendency toward disconnect with the real world, then I think you might have something. I know that in the traditional environment I grew up in, a lack of groundedness in males is not really going to work. I haven't ever experienced non-traditional environments, and also I've never known a female INFJ in childhood in either type of environment, so I don't know if this holds true for them.

    Female INFJs, please comment?
    That wasn't what I meant by worst qualities though what you're saying seems accurate. My perception of a types worst quality may be a non-issue for somebody else so I was speaking mostly to the feminine aspects of an INFJ or the heart/mind integration which in my context would be partially mitigated in male INFJs (a type I would call heart driven).

    Deservedly, I want to say. You don't sound very trustworthy after an admission like that. Why were you using different names on FaceBook? She probably thought you were stalking her, or something.
    I deleted my main account after a breakup with an INFJ, I didn't want to deal with facebook drama and she didn't want to "see what I was doing" so due to the number of mutual friends we had and her use of facebook for business I chose to delete it. This left me with only my account I used to play games, admin some groups and so on, it was the name I use in the MBTI forums and since most of the groups I was in were MBTI related that just made sense. I couldn't tell you what she (the INFJ that responded to the post not the one I'd just broke up with) was thinking, I wasn't even aware of her presence in the group and hadn't spoken to her in years. I just posted a comment in the INFJ group and she commented on it. I'm going to assume by your use of "stalking" and "ENTP" in the same sentence we can add ENTPs to INFJ and INFP in the list of types you don't know. If an ENTP were going to stalk you, you wouldn't know it was happening, if you could get an ENTP interested enough to notice much less stalk you, you're probably married to him.

    Almost all the poster children of every type are men. Men have done most everything in recorded history; only in the last ten or fifteen years has it become likely that history-making events will be driven by a woman. Given that INFJs are supposed to do 'social change' as their big thing, that's a pretty historical thing, and there just aren't that many opportunities for it to happen. So we'll have to wait before we start using something like that as evidence.

    Some would argue that even today, women are far less likely to be in the leadership positions that get written up as 'history changing'. We'll have to see society change a bit more; give it another twenty years and we'll see what things look like.
    I can give you a few types that are dominated by female poster children. Notice the increase in the divorce rate over the same 15 years, interesting correlation. I feel genders have the same intrinsic value but with that said I know that isn't a universal way of thinking. I have also abandoned modern relationship dynamics as I don't see them trending in a positive direction. I'm not trying to open a can of worms with what I'm saying, I love strong women, my girlfriend is an ENFP whom I've watched chew up many out of line men. We however don't engage in a gender neutral dynamic, she is very much so the woman and me the man in our relationship.

  5. #745
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Who might they be?

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #746
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Out of all the feeler types, INFJs who don't reject their Fe and neglect their Ti, wipe the floor with all the rest. Not surprising why ENTPs like them!

  7. #747
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    You know what I never understand about these threads? what about those poor ENTPs; who in eighteen thousand threads, has had the common humanity to think of the ones that needed it the most, our one fellow and MBTI brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every MBTI’s daily and nightly thoughts, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

  8. #748
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    Haha! I loved this! Thank you for sharing. You have a very engaging rhetorical voice & it's nice to find well written information on this topic.

    -Single INFJ

  9. #749
    Member iloveyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Perception is 90% of reality, nobody is immune to their own perceptions, balances in learning to integrate it with the perceptions of others.

    As a side note, that girl stopped talking to me, we were just friends but she started dating a guy that was insecure and catered to him. She didn't say anything about why, just stopped, maybe the fourth time an INFJ woman has done something like this only to later find out why.

    Honestly, I've never had an issue with a male INFJ, I just spent 4 hours with one today that I talk to almost daily and he's wonderful. I would clear all ENTPs (male or female) for a relationship with a male INFJ, I would however still enforce a strict keep your distance protocol for any ENTP attempting to get close to a female INFJ, be warned people, be warned! I say leave them for the INXXs and ISTJs!!

    Your experiences are your own. And no one can subtract them from you. No one else's opinions, views, beliefs, or experiences will erase your own. I certainly did not make any attempts to even tone down the posts you made that so flagrantly boasted the virtues of the INFJ, so I certainly will not denounce your current negative views of them. As I said, your experiences are your own. I will, however, voice my opinion, as I would advocate a more balanced view. Just as any other type has their pitfalls and shortcomings, so does the INFJ. Similarly, just as any other type has their gifts and talents, so does the INFJ. The angelic descriptions that some create of INFJ's (I read the beginning of another thread on another website similar to this thread) as well as the criticisms or words of caution that others give seem a tad bit overdone to me. We're people too with flaws and strengths just as anyone else. Having said this, however, I do realize that the people, events, circumstances, etc. that we all face-- each and every single one of us-- and come into contact with every day truly do also play wonders in molding us in to who we eventually turn out to be as​ well as in shaping our view of the world and the people around us.

  10. #750
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Because my mom said so
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