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  1. #731
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvVieNiamhNyx View Post
    I feel as if I am just taking a tiny snid-bit of this that I like, but it caught my eye.

    "By contrast and backing up everything else I've said. INFJs often falsely test as INFPs, because while the ENTP is the most introverted extrovert the INFJ is the least orderly J. With MBTI these are the only two anomalies like this I'm aware of."

    I have been in a mass of confusion because I first typed as INFJ forever ago and forgot about MBTI, I took it again and got INFJ still, but I looked into MBTI in general. I read most of the types discriptions and INFP seemed to fit a lot, almost as much as INFJ and then I saw J's are neat and ordered and I am sort of ordered but not neat. I also saw INFJ poser bashing, and I do not want to a type I am not. So I have been in a search between am I INFJ or INFP? Is this really true INFJ's are the least orderly J?
    You are in a mass of confusion because you dont fit the type system ? Let me rephrase that to make it more clear: you are in a mass of confusion because your face does not exactly look like the faces of the group of people you belong to ?!
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #732
    Member iloveyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I really agree with all the @the state i am in says but I think he is a male if I'm not mistaken and I find that I connect to and relate with male INFJs far better than I do with females. Maybe a result of societal gender stereotypes reenforcing the negative qualities of both female INFJs and male ENTPs.

    It is also wise to further look at the Enneagram 7 (common for ENTPs) flaws which are avoidance or more specifically anxiety and the desire to escape it via avoidance.

    @fia I find it curious that you view ENTPs as judgmental as function wise the ENTP and ENFP would be the very least judgmental of all the MBTI types. I have never met one I felt this way about, I could tell any of the ENPs I know pretty much anything with zero fear of judgment. It has been my experience that INFJs that aren't comfortable with themselves will view us that way due to a tendency to add emotions relating to their perception to statements. A made up example:

    ENTP - You're skinny. (nothing more than a statement of their perception, neither good nor bad)

    INFJ - What are you saying?

    ENTP - That you're skinny.


    The INFJ will then take the statement and depending on how they perceive themselves assume anything from the ENTP judging how much they eat to them saying they have an eating disorder.

    To actually quote a real life INFJ example like I'm talking about from a few days ago I will quote the actual text conversation:


    INFJ - I'm an INFJ

    Me - I figured you were an INFJ, interesting to find an INFJ with blank (blank used in place of a more personal detail that isn't germane to this context).

    INFJ- Why is an INFJ with blank strange? And what's your type?

    Me - Now see what you did there, I said "interesting" and you converted it to "strange".

    INFJ - You're right I did.

    INFJ - I wonder why I converted "interesting" to "strange"... Maybe I read into your observation and subconsciously attached a negative connotation to the word "interesting".


    And in my humble opinion there is the crux of the ENTP/INFJ issues though not an entirely inclusive summary.

    I'm not doubting that you felt judged fia, simply saying that feeling judged does not a judgement make.

    Hmm..thought that was just something women did. But you're right, I do that too. I'm not sure why, but I feel like it's something I didn't really do when I was younger. I vividly remember being able to remember exactly what people said, exactly how they said it, exactly the way they said it, word for word growing up. But for some reason now when I hear what people say I sometimes subconsciously, idk, "attach things to them" like the person you met said, and I've noticed that sometimes this translates to me slightly changing up what the person said, that is, if whatever I subconsciously "attached" wasn't intended. I actually didn't really realize I did this until I joined this forum. I mean not really. I guess that's because everything on here's written and you can easily scroll back up to check to see what the person actually did say.

    But thanks. Something I'll try to work on. I'll keep it in mind.

  3. #733
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveyou View Post
    Hmm..thought that was just something women did. But you're right, I do that too. I'm not sure why, but I feel like it's something I didn't really do when I was younger. I vividly remember being able to remember exactly what people said, exactly how they said it, exactly the way they said it, word for word growing up. But for some reason now when I hear what people say I sometimes subconsciously, idk, "attach things to them" like the person you met said, and I've noticed that sometimes this translates to me slightly changing up what the person said, that is, if whatever I subconsciously "attached" wasn't intended. I actually didn't really realize I did this until I joined this forum. I mean not really. I guess that's because everything on here's written and you can easily scroll back up to check to see what the person actually did say.

    But thanks. Something I'll try to work on. I'll keep it in mind.
    Perception is 90% of reality, nobody is immune to their own perceptions, balances in learning to integrate it with the perceptions of others.

    As a side note, that girl stopped talking to me, we were just friends but she started dating a guy that was insecure and catered to him. She didn't say anything about why, just stopped, maybe the fourth time an INFJ woman has done something like this only to later find out why.

    Honestly, I've never had an issue with a male INFJ, I just spent 4 hours with one today that I talk to almost daily and he's wonderful. I would clear all ENTPs (male or female) for a relationship with a male INFJ, I would however still enforce a strict keep your distance protocol for any ENTP attempting to get close to a female INFJ, be warned people, be warned! I say leave them for the INXXs and ISTJs!!

  4. #734
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Perception is 90% of reality, nobody is immune to their own perceptions, balances in learning to integrate it with the perceptions of others.

    As a side note, that girl stopped talking to me, we were just friends but she started dating a guy that was insecure and catered to him. She didn't say anything about why, just stopped, maybe the fourth time an INFJ woman has done something like this only to later find out why.

    Honestly, I've never had an issue with a male INFJ, I just spent 4 hours with one today that I talk to almost daily and he's wonderful. I would clear all ENTPs (male or female) for a relationship with a male INFJ, I would however still enforce a strict keep your distance protocol for any ENTP attempting to get close to a female INFJ, be warned people, be warned! I say leave them for the INXXs and ISTJs!!
    Gender shouldn't make a difference in type, should it?

    But maybe expectation of gender behavior is what makes the difference seem so strong.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Gender shouldn't make a difference in type, should it?
    it can in theory - to the extent that a type can shape how you mentally digest social expectations and role models, and those are influenced by gender (ESFJ males vs. ESFJ females might be the most obvious examples of that).


    that's being said, i think in this case the difference might not be between INFJ males and INFJ female personalities in themselves as much as it is about how gender dynamics interact with MBTI dynamics - the initial dynamic will probably be different, but i don't know if in the long term female ENTPs would experience male INFJs that differently from how male ENTPs experience female INFJs, and the problematic aspects of the type dynamic tend to arise in the long term anyway.

  6. #736
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Mane
    it can in theory - to the extent that a type can shape how you mentally digest social expectations and role models, and those are influenced by gender (ESFJ males vs. ESFJ females might be the most obvious examples of that).

    That's really sad in a way. I just mean that a person may never discover his or her true self or see others for their true selves because of this.

    that's being said, i think in this case the difference might not be between INFJ males and INFJ female personalities in themselves as much as it is about how gender dynamics interact with MBTI dynamics - the initial dynamic will probably be different, but i don't know if in the long term female ENTPs would experience male INFJs that differently from how male ENTPs experience female INFJs, and the problematic aspects of the type dynamic tend to arise in the long term anyway.
    I think you're right about it being in the long haul where problems tend to arise and also I suppose that the more time you spend with a person, the more you see and experience each other's short comings. But still, I think it's too bad that gender expectations color our perceptions so much.

    In real life, I know two male ENTPs, one of them is my trainer. I often think that if we had met under different circumstances that we would have been an awesome team, or at least very interesting one. But then again, it might have been a disaster. Who can say?
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  7. #737
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Mane


    That's really sad in a way. I just mean that a person may never discover his or her true self or see others for their true selves because of this.



    I think you're right about it being in the long haul where problems tend to arise and also I suppose that the more time you spend with a person, the more you see and experience each other's short comings. But still, I think it's too bad that gender expectations color our perceptions so much.

    In real life, I know two male ENTPs, one of them is my trainer. I often think that if we had met under different circumstances that we would have been an awesome team, or at least very interesting one. But then again, it might have been a disaster. Who can say?
    Come closer my child
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #738
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it can in theory - to the extent that a type can shape how you mentally digest social expectations and role models, and those are influenced by gender (ESFJ males vs. ESFJ females might be the most obvious examples of that).


    that's being said, i think in this case the difference might not be between INFJ males and INFJ female personalities in themselves as much as it is about how gender dynamics interact with MBTI dynamics - the initial dynamic will probably be different, but i don't know if in the long term female ENTPs would experience male INFJs that differently from how male ENTPs experience female INFJs, and the problematic aspects of the type dynamic tend to arise in the long term anyway.
    I don't disagree but would add that in a perfect world there may be less of a difference, in some family dynamics the difference may be less noticeable (e.g. my daughter is a 9 but being raised by a 7w8 is more assertive than you would expect from a 9). My perception and experience has been that for female INFJs societal expectations reenforces and reaffirms their worst qualities where as for males it challenges those same qualities and forces them to adjust and grow. For whatever reason my experience with INFPs while I would think would be the same proves opposite as the INFP females I know seem to do better and the males seem to "adjust" with often times more passive aggressive behaviors or having a more extroverted sensor persona. Clearly these aren't "rules" but my observations.

    With INFJs females I've experienced the same exact issues over, and over, and over with them flat out denying it, as if they reinvent reality. I actually was in the INFJ facebook group and commented on some observations along these lines. Interestingly enough one girl was hugely offended and defended INFJs with vigor swearing an INFJ could never. The funny thing was she didn't know I was using a different facebook name and I was the guy she'd been cheating on her boyfriend with (I didn't know, she was lying to both) years earlier. When I responded to tell her who I was (not what had happened out of respect for her privacy) she actually talked to one of the INFJ admins in the group and had me kicked out.

    Think about the INFJ poster children, Jesus, Sam Harris, Gandhi, MLK, all men.

    Mind you, this isn't directed towards any single person but my experience with INFJs. If you notice, there are a couple INFJs that are very well regarded on TypeC and post often yet have stayed clear of this thread (or any thread where I'm noting these observations for that matter) completely, want to take a guess at why?

  9. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I don't disagree but would add that in a perfect world there may be less of a difference, in some family dynamics the difference may be less noticeable (e.g. my daughter is a 9 but being raised by a 7w8 is more assertive than you would expect from a 9). My perception and experience has been that for female INFJs societal expectations reenforces and reaffirms their worst qualities where as for males it challenges those same qualities and forces them to adjust and grow. For whatever reason my experience with INFPs while I would think would be the same proves opposite as the INFP females I know seem to do better and the males seem to "adjust" with often times more passive aggressive behaviors or having a more extroverted sensor persona. Clearly these aren't "rules" but my observations.

    With INFJs females I've experienced the same exact issues over, and over, and over with them flat out denying it, as if they reinvent reality.

    maybe, but ask yourself this:
    while you don't experience the same brute wall of willful ignorance, do the more intimate relationships in his life do? his past and current partners? his family?

    i think for both genders of the type, there is a connection between the degree of intimacy and the degree of betrayal they seem to experience:
    the more personal and intimate your knowledge about them is, the more threatening it is to their sense of self when your view of who they are conflicts with their own.
    contrasting that is respect: the more mutual respect you have for each other, the more they can trust you to be their ally on their side, the harder it will be for them to invent and super impose on you a narrative of malicious intent.

    my theory is that it isn't who he is which marks most of the difference, its who you are for him: a buddy.
    male bonds are often built more on respect and comradery then on intimacy and affection, increasing the fortitude on one hand and decreasing the vulnerability in the other.


  10. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    In real life, I know two male ENTPs, one of them is my trainer. I often think that if we had met under different circumstances that we would have been an awesome team, or at least very interesting one. But then again, it might have been a disaster. Who can say?
    you aren't an awesome team? what ended up happening with that?

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