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  1. #701
    Member March's Avatar
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    I actually hate what's happening right now. INFJs aren't fucking 'toxic,' we don't have 'ugly' or 'even uglier' sides to our 'souls.' This is just a stupid communication pattern. And yes, to the non-INFJs it probably looks completely stupid (or like some much-needed bending of that stubborn streak), while to the INFJs it probably feels like it's really being asked of us to own up that we're wicked, sinful, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

    But still it's just a pattern. Arising from communication failure between different, but equally valid, brain structures. A pattern that would probably make @Mane even more convinced that INFJs probably are constitutionally incapable of responding to criticism with anything even remotely resembling a proporational response and would probably make @PeaceBaby's flesh crawl with the 'martyr' theme. And even if my guesses in that direction are completely off, it makes MY skin crawl.

    Fellow INFJs, can't we have some fucking pride? Some steel in our backbones? Own up to our mistakes without giving in to that sweet, sweet temptation of ritual self-flagellation? And I don't mean push existential blame outward to prevent it from going inward, but to just disarm the whole concept altogether?

    INFJs are just people. People come with different default patterns. Each default pattern has some gorgeously polished skills right out of the box, and because of that optimization everyone also has a couple of stupid failure modes. Blame the limits of the bloody wetware.

    Sure, INFJs piss people off. Guess who also piss people off? All other 15 types.

    Warning, generalizations ahead.

    Je-doms piss people off because they steamroller over other people in pursuit of their goals.
    Ji-doms piss people off because they can't be arsed to cooperate unless they're convinced it's necessary.
    Pe-doms piss people off because they're too distractable and march to the beat of their own drummer.
    Pi-doms piss people off because they're convinced they're right about something until it turns out they're wrong, and then they update their priors and are automatically right again.

    Everyone's annoying to someone. But being who you are doesn't earn you a black mark on your soul. Nor does pissing someone off online. Doing things like cheating on someone or banning them from seeing people they love or abandoning them in dire straits earns you a black mark on your soul, and if you've done that you KNOW it. And actually, giving in to that inclination to bending the knee in supplication makes it MORE likely we'll do things like that. (See here, article about kids but I'm pretty sure it works for adults too, especially adults with a highly sensitive embarrassment trigger. Who did that describe again? Oh yeah, Fe users.)

    My wish for this conversation (all conversations, really) is to end somewhere where we have better understanding of ourselves and others, and also retain (or gain) the capacity of standing up straight, owning our choices for better or worse, and letting voices - and in case of INFJs that mostly means our OWN voices - telling us that we should be deeply ashamed of what we ARE slide off our backs like water off ducks.

    Except when @phobik tells us that, of course.

  2. #702
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    @March...

    FWIW, my post wasn't meant to be a form of self-flagellation (unless @phobik can come up with some cool illustration of that...seems kind of physically impossible)....again, I am an NF and as such I am just responding to the "tone" of the posts, and they hurt...no other way to describe it for me.

    Actually, I have really appreciated your posts and the amount of effort you have put into them, thank you.

    I also would like to end with a better understanding of ourselves and others, a worthy goal.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  3. #703
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    So, in taking full responsibility, I feel I should say this. I can't find Z Buck's email to me. Since it's been months and I don't know if I didn't save it or if my memory of it is wrong, I'll go ahead and say that, whether she asked me or not, I chose to do what I said I would do in the PM I posted. I chose to stop posting information that I knew was distressing to her. And then, a few months later, I changed my mind and chose to post information that I knew would be distressing to her. And that led to now.

    ETA: I'm actually quite tired of all of this INFJ drama. I only wanted to be able to learn about typology and apply what I learned to my own life and relationships. But instead of being able to discuss Fe/Fi without it getting personal, or realistically look at myself and my thought processes without having to go to one extreme or the other, we all ended up with what we got. The supposed self-flagellation seemed necessary in order to balance out the years of "we do no wrong or, if we do, it's justified because that's how we are". People here had issues with INFJs that they wanted answers to and they weren't getting them. Hopefully, eventually, things will balance out.


    ETA2: Actually, the supposed self-flagellation you got to see was probably less worse than what my own thought processes put me through when I wasn't aware of them. All of this freaking emotional baggage of anxiety and fear and atonement mixed in with imagination that I don't know how to fully deal with yet. At least I've started to identify the problem areas and maybe I can find some answers. Yeah, all types have problems, but the only ones I can fix are my own.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #704
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I actually hate what's happening right now. INFJs aren't fucking 'toxic,' we don't have 'ugly' or 'even uglier' sides to our 'souls.' This is just a stupid communication pattern. And yes, to the non-INFJs it probably looks completely stupid (or like some much-needed bending of that stubborn streak), while to the INFJs it probably feels like it's really being asked of us to own up that we're wicked, sinful, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
    I do understand what you're saying. And you probably don't realize it in quite the way that I do now, but each individual INFJ pov is very much appreciated. You bring a balanced, yet still very INFJ perspective to the table.

    My question to Z Buck was a serious one, though, because I don't have an answer. How can all voices be included in a discussion, and, more importantly, heard? When someone has strict parameters about what information is acceptable to them, or strict parameters about the way information has to be conveyed in order for them to hear it, is there a way for them to participate without forcing people with less strict parameters to adjust to the strict parameters? You might say that both sides need to adjust and meet in the middle, but I've found that that doesn't always happen. Especially on a public forum where there are not just two, but several different variations of what acceptable parameters look like. Certain discussions were getting shut down before they even got started, or kept to such tight criteria that they were basically repeating the same things over and over with no progress or growth.

    For the most part, I know why Z Buck has set her boundaries where she has, and I agree that she has as much right to a voice here on the forum as anyone, and I understand how much pain I've caused her. That's why what I did was ugly. I said that I had an uglier side. Whether that can be applied to all INFJs or their souls is a subject for a different thread.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #705
    Member March's Avatar
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    @statuesquechica, self-flagellation is definitely a thing, especially in religions/worldviews that consider the flesh weak, sinful and fallen and only the spirit - when guided and chastized correctly - capable of holiness. As a matter of fact, it's just the season for it - many paths of Christianity have strong links between self-abasement and forgiveness, and Easter is a time where people physically try to emulate Christ's suffering, even up to the point of volunteering for being crucified (not until death, fortunately).

    See here for a popular culture reference (Silas from the Da Vinci Code). 16-second youtube clip, and I do NOT recommend clicking any of the related links!

    @Eilonwy,

    You said:
    1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    The supposed self-flagellation seemed necessary in order to balance out the years of "we do no wrong or, if we do, it's justified because that's how we are". People here had issues with INFJs that they wanted answers to and they weren't getting them. Hopefully, eventually, things will balance out.
    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    ETA2: Actually, the supposed self-flagellation you got to see was probably less worse than what my own thought processes put me through when I wasn't aware of them. All of this freaking emotional baggage of anxiety and fear and atonement mixed in with imagination that I don't know how to fully deal with yet.
    Actually, I think I agree with you, but disagree with you on the order. I think INFJs are, for some reason, exquisitely sensitive to confusion brought on by shame/embarrassment and therefore uniquely prone to the 'if I just show you how much I can make myself suffer, you will forgive me and love me again and I won't be confused anymore' magic bullet thinking. At least, I don't see ENFJs struggle with that as much - they sort default to 'just admit that you're wrong, and do what I say' and don't spend as much time in the 'look at my paaaaaaiiin' station. They still tend to overextend themselves on what they consider other people's behalf, but they seem less inclined to suffer on other people's behalf. (Although disclaimers disclaimers this could just be an artifact of me comparing my insides to their outsides, that they may feel just as martyry on the inside and either look more composed because that's just how Je looks on the outside or they strive to look composed because that's good strategic thinking. Also, I'm an enneagram 4, with an extra dose of paaaaaaiiinnnnn.)

    As a step two, I think INFJs may respond to all the self-inflicted suffering with 'screw this, it's not MY fault.' But if they're still in 'fault' thinking, then the obvious counterpoint becomes 'so it must be YOURS!' That, deservedly, pisses people off, and most of the pushback tends to arrive in the form of 'It's NOT my fault! Look at yourself before you start flinging blame!'

    And I think that's good advice.

    @statuesquechica's statement of 'I was just responding to the pain on this thread' (by creating pain/judgement on ourselves, like that had any actual effect on the actual world) seems to me like the 'cleaner', more primal response, while 'it's not MYYY fault, reallytrulypleasebelieveme' feels like trying to scream over your (not you, Eilonwy; you, general, based on me, March) own sense of inadequacy. )

    However, I think it's a mistake to then go 'Ah well, this whole backbone thing didn't work out, guess it's all my fault after all.' Instead, I think we should look at and learn to control our tendency to self-blame - that, in turn, makes it much easier to both not be a doormat AND not to overcompensate for the fear that we're going to be doormats, which in turn makes it much easier to have more relaxed and equitable relationships.

    Thing is, all that's only possible when we can accept 'how we are', not because we want to score points for it or because we want people to go easy on us, but because it makes no sense to start working on changing anything if you don't accept where you're at right now. And the Fe-as-martyr thing isn't pulled completely out of thin air. But I wish we could see it without judgement. It's just a habit, and it doesn't give us any moral high ground whatsoever, and it's a crying shame that society does contribute a moral high ground to martyrhood. (If anything, for me, people for which martyrdom is a habit derive less moral cachet for it than people for whom self-sacrifice is an actual SACRIFICE.) It's such an easy smokescreen to hide behind if you're an INFJ in the throes of self-judgement, whereas if cultures would hold healthy self-interest up as a shining beacon of morality, INFJs at least would be laughed at pityingly for their innate tendencies, which would probably help them 'grow up' a lot more quickly. :p

    Re this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    My question to Z Buck was a serious one, though, because I don't have an answer. How can all voices be included in a discussion, and, more importantly, heard? When someone has strict parameters about what information is acceptable to them, or strict parameters about the way information has to be conveyed in order for them to hear it, is there a way for them to participate without forcing people with less strict parameters to adjust to the strict parameters? You might say that both sides need to adjust and meet in the middle, but I've found that that doesn't always happen. Especially on a public forum where there are not just two, but several different variations of what acceptable parameters look like. Certain discussions were getting shut down before they even got started, or kept to such tight criteria that they were basically repeating the same things over and over with no progress or growth.
    My answer, I think you can't. Especially on forums. In high-obligation relationships such as marriage or employment you could argue that you have the right to drag spouse/employee to a therapist or mediator, but you can't really make that case online.

    All people close the door on information that doesn't, on a cursory glance, follow their parameters, and all people have blind spots that prevent them from hearing things. And then there's the thing where even if someone hears and accepts a certain bit of information, they're not obligated to do a single bloody thing with it.

    I think there are different things going on in that quote, though:
    A) People needing information to take a certain shape to be processed.
    B) People pretending to need certain packaging before they will listen.
    C) People being sensitive/having strong boundaries.
    D) People not interested in working on a certain thing, right now or ever.

    I don't much believe in 'meeting in the middle.' What does it mean to package information in a way that someone understands 50%? 50% of understanding is worth just as much as 0% understanding, and a lot more dangerous.

    When talking to person A, I can either give them what they need or release my expectation that they'll understand me. I can't force them to understand something they don't.
    When talking to person B, there's nothing I can do anyway except hope that I cop to their bad faith early enough and don't exhaust myself arguing a case to someone who's sticking their fingers in their ears.
    When talking to person C, I can do whatever I want and they, in return, will choose to exercise their boundaries to give me consequences or not. If they do, I can set boundaries in return. If they don't but secretly sulk at me, it's not really my problem that they don't know how boundaries work. (Although I'm sensitive enough to want to make sure they don't have to exercise their boundaries progressively, so I'll probably leave them alone if I notice they don't want to talk to me.
    When talking to person D, I can try to convince them that they really SHOULD work on their drinking problem or whatever, and they can exercise their boundary of 'If you keep pushing me about my drinking problem, I'm just not going to talk to you anymore.' Might not be the best for their health, but there's nothing you can do.

    Seems fair to me.
    I have the right to say everything I want.
    I do not have the right to force people to do anything with the information I give them.
    I do not have the right to force people to change the things they say/stop saying things because I don't want to hear them.
    I can, however, tell them that right now is not the time and could they please respect my wishes.
    But they don't have to.
    And then I have the right to spend my time elsewhere.

    (When I'm the owner of the online space, and probably there's some sort of thread-ownership that gets respected on forums, I can of course set strong boundaries about what I'll accept in my space. But in those cases all I can do is ban people from discussing certain things in MY space, not ban them from discussing it next door. And if I create a strong culture, whether the free-for-all bashfest on reddit or the very circumspect precise way of communicating on social justice forums, I'll alienate at least SOME people.)

    In a way, that makes sure all voices are heard. But in some cases, you just can't get beyond 'I hear you, and I just don't care.'

  6. #706
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    When talking to person A, I can either give them what they need or release my expectation that they'll understand me. I can't force them to understand something they don't.
    When talking to person B, there's nothing I can do anyway except hope that I cop to their bad faith early enough and don't exhaust myself arguing a case to someone who's sticking their fingers in their ears.
    When talking to person C, I can do whatever I want and they, in return, will choose to exercise their boundaries to give me consequences or not. If they do, I can set boundaries in return. If they don't but secretly sulk at me, it's not really my problem that they don't know how boundaries work. (Although I'm sensitive enough to want to make sure they don't have to exercise their boundaries progressively, so I'll probably leave them alone if I notice they don't want to talk to me.
    When talking to person D, I can try to convince them that they really SHOULD work on their drinking problem or whatever, and they can exercise their boundary of 'If you keep pushing me about my drinking problem, I'm just not going to talk to you anymore.' Might not be the best for their health, but there's nothing you can do.
    And still it all sounds, like you are caring about other persons too much
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #707
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    And still it all sounds, like you are caring about other persons too much
    A leopard can't change its spots.

    I was also trying to illustrate how someone sensitive with strong boundaries and needs for information packaging can exist in a thread without excluding others, which @Eilonwy seemed to worry about.

    People who have no boundaries don't cause trouble at all, unless they want others to also have no boundaries at all (at which point they're out of luck 'cause nobody can interfere with others' boundaries, especially not online).

    From a 'not caring' perspective, I can do whatever I want until I run afoul of the mods or law enforcement, or until nobody's left who's willing to talk to me. But where's the fun in that?

  8. #708
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, in taking full responsibility, I feel I should say this. I can't find Z Buck's email to me. Since it's been months and I don't know if I didn't save it or if my memory of it is wrong, I'll go ahead and say that, whether she asked me or not, I chose to do what I said I would do in the PM I posted. I chose to stop posting information that I knew was distressing to her. And then, a few months later, I changed my mind and chose to post information that I knew would be distressing to her. And that led to now.
    Let me help. Here is the message I sent you a couple hours before that previous response to me you publicly posted:



    As far as I know we’ve never actually exchanged emails- only PMs here and on fb. And it’s the only message (or rep) I sent you for days prior to that PM you publicly posted. I’ve never asked you to stop posting your experience, not even indirectly. It disturbs me that you seem to think I did.

    Especially since- in the very last PM I sent you last week- I had very clearly explained having the opposite position: “I’m not sure if- after my last couple PMs- you had started feeling the need to be especially careful about what you post (and I seriously do apologize), but I really don’t want to cause that. Until I figure out what’s going on for me and why, I’m obviously not being a supportive influence right now anyway so I’m going to avoid your blog until I feel centered again.” And: “The only reason I’m telling you this is so that you don’t have to worry about me having a bad reaction again, and you can go back to writing whatever you want.”

    It also disturbs me that you’d publicly post that response, out of context, to make it look as if I did make that request- without even checking first to see if you were remembering things clearly or reading something extra ‘between the lines’ (which you clearly were, if you read a request to stop posting about your ‘exploration of Fe’ in anything I’ve written you, ever).

    If you want me to leave you alone, all you (or anyone else) has to do is ask. Instead, you privately respond “We’re okay”- and then you spring this on me publicly…..while complaining about INFJ drama. Well done.


    [I just wanted to clear up this bullshit about me supposedly requesting E to stop posting about her ‘exploration of Fe’. It’s not remotely true. Now I am done with this thread. ]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #709
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    A leopard can't change its spots.

    I was also trying to illustrate how someone sensitive with strong boundaries and needs for information packaging can exist in a thread without excluding others, which @Eilonwy seemed to worry about.

    People who have no boundaries don't cause trouble at all, unless they want others to also have no boundaries at all (at which point they're out of luck 'cause nobody can interfere with others' boundaries, especially not online).

    From a 'not caring' perspective, I can do whatever I want until I run afoul of the mods or law enforcement, or until nobody's left who's willing to talk to me. But where's the fun in that?
    The boundaries you have are all in your head and there only.

    MBTI is everything but a good way to understand people. It is a safety net for people overwhelmed by the complexity of life. It is a categorizing tool for people who hate surprise or lack fantasy. And it is a vindication for people not to leave their own world to get to know other people, but just to put them into boxes and file them under 'understood, embering curiosity pacified'.

    Boundaries we all set for ourselves and we ourselves only. There are no people who are more sensitive than others, all people are the same sensitive. There are just people who hide behind a mask of sensitiveness, because they havent dealt with coping with getting hurt.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #710
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The boundaries you have are all in your head and there only.
    You're totally confusing me. I was responding to a query about practical organization of message boards and who gets to choose who participates and what topics can be discussed. You seem to be taking it to a completely different, purely philosophical level.

    Of course boundaries are in our heads and of course we set them for ourselves. And one way of coping with getting blisters on our feet is to get out of the friggin' fire, right?

    I don't believe that everyone's 'the same sensitive.' Even if every person's total sensitivity adds up to X, I'm pretty sure that where and why we are sensitive differs. Not everyone's equally sensitive to the sight of spiders.

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