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  1. #681
    Member March's Avatar
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    I'm working on a post on the 'investing' thing because I think we're on to something here, but this seemed more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    Hmm, but that's not what @Mane wants either. As nice as it would be, he does not prioritize emotional consoling since that will not help him be able to see his stepson in the future. In this thread, being in a place discussing typological tendencies, he was hoping to find INFJ's who, purportedly having a good understanding and awareness of their internal processing, could step back and say, "That's a pretty extreme case and here is what you would need to do to help reestablish communications, no guarantees." Instead, he received a whole bunch of judgement, "You must have done something terrible if this happened to you" and denial, "I would NEVER do that / your partner must not be INFJ / you are picking on INFJs / you are mean so you force me to be mean back!" and very little substance or information of value.
    Well, I told him I'm a bad @Mane-reader and that I couldn't get a handle on what he wanted, and he said he wanted ALL the things, having the different levels of conversation at the same time. So I've been trying to give all the things.

    But this stood out: "he was hoping to find INFJ's who, purportedly having a good understanding and awareness of their internal processing, could step back and say, "That's a pretty extreme case and here is what you would need to do to help reestablish communications, no guarantees."

    Is that true, @Mane?

    Because if so, let's pull all of that together:
    I think the case of your ex is pretty extreme. I think being allowed to divorce people is a big net social benefit, even though the process sucks, but banning someone from seeing their stepson has no part in that. Like I said, I doubt that reestablishing communications is easy or even possible when things have deteriorated to this stage, but I do think that the tips I've been trying to put together might help if that's what you want to do. No guarantees, unfortunately. Because in the end, I don't think this was so much a failure of understanding/accepting your feelings, but a failure of caring about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    Actually @ bold, I do think this is what Mane wants, but it's vital to first understand all of the vectors, including his.
    Long posts with lots of questions and prospective vantage points and invitations of critique in the form of 'Yes, your connection from A to C works but you need to insert a D before E and then the bit from O to V is completely out of order, V-Z is OK though' get very little in the way of answers, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    There may not be an intimate level of relationship, but having a conversation here implies people are at least acquaintances I think.

    At least I see myself as having a relationship and therefore certain obligations in interacting with anyone here. I do not get to be "rude" just because you cannot see me behind this screen and there are no perceived immediate consequences.
    Acquaintance-level obligation for me means listen, try to understand, engage if you want to, be polite, see people as people. Especially in forums I don't include 'step into moderator role' or 'assume people can't fight their own battles.' I've seen a LOT of misunderstanding everywhere (you said you don't feel heard and I said I don't feel heard, and I think at this stage nobody does, unfortunately), lots of snippiness and snarkiness to and fro, some low blows that obviously hurt but might not be intended to hurt, and some outright nastiness that was called out by moderators.

    If I started 'defending' people, I'd quickly become the morality police and crash&burn the conversation altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    So even if you see bad behaviour, you have no personal grievance, therefore you do nothing?
    Is this a curious question or a pointed question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    Did you mean for me to answer the other questions too?
    I'd like your opinion on the next post I'm going to make, elaborating on @Mane's answers to my earlier questions, if you feel like it.

  2. #682
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    @bolded- What exactly does this mean, what is "information"?
    I'm not using the word "information" in any unusual way. Merriam-Webster online defines information as: knowledge that you get about someone or something : facts or details about a subject.

    "the information will end up leaking through your lines" means just what it says. If you're involved in a public discussion on the forum and a member you have on ignore is also involved, information from the ignored posts will end up leaking through to you in the form of their posts being quoted, replied to, or from the general direction the discussion ends up taking. And from my understanding, the main reason you have people on ignore is because the information they post upsets you, either in what they're saying or how they're saying it.

    I don't really understand what you're asking. There are more than a couple people in these discussion boards from whom I have gotten the impression would prefer I not engage them- so I don't engage them. I do not feel like this prevents me from participating in discussions. I work around it, primarily because I can't imagine feeling so entitled to the attention of other people that I feel like ALL people owe it to me to pay attention to me regardless of how much I offend them. Honestly- it seems to me like most people here do have tendencies to interact more with certain people than with others. It goes on all the time- individuals avoiding each other. It's just that copious amounts of attention aren't drawn to it because usually the person (who isn't getting the attention they want from certain individuals) isn't make a huge public spectacle of it.
    My question to you was: how does someone with rigid boundaries participate in public discussion and take responsibility for those boundaries without forcing everyone to abide by those same rigid boundaries?

    From the above quote, I take it that you define taking responsibility for your rigid boundaries as:
    1) not engaging with the people who have given you the impression that they don't want you to engage with them
    2) not feeling entitled to other people's attention regardless of how much you offend them

    Is that correct?

    Because it looks to me like it's actually how you expect other people to treat you. Especially the last part in your quote about making a huge public spectacle. It seems to me that you're not talking about yourself and what you feel your responsibilities are, you're talking about what you expect from the people you've put on ignore and how you feel about whatever information has leaked through your rigid lines. How else would you know that a huge public spectacle has been made unless unwanted information was leaking through? And besides, it usually takes at least two people to make a huge public spectacle. But I'm not all that interested in what you think other people's responsibilities are in this situation, I'm asking you what you think your responsibilities are in this situation. You said:
    I'm okay with those rigid lines being there, and take responsibility for it in my own life with my relationships to others.
    And I asked: how does someone with rigid boundaries participate in public discussion and take responsibility for those boundaries without forcing everyone to abide by those same rigid boundaries?
    In other words, in a perfect world, the people on ignore could post whatever they wanted pertaining to the discussion at hand, because you wouldn't see it. You could participate in the discussion, they could participate in the discussion, everyone would be happy. But this isn't a perfect world. Information leaks through. If the information upsets you, what's the responsible thing to do, in your opinion?

    eta: I really don't see how my choice to avoid interacting with certain individuals is forcing anyone else to avoid interacting with those individuals.
    Please show me where I said this, because I don't see it in my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'm honestly not paying attention to latest posts, but for some reason I keep thinking about this. Can I ask, who exactly are "so many" and "the rest"- I presume you're referring to members of the forum who have tried pointing out this specific this thing that INFJs do that (even though it seems to us like we're seeing it and we don't understand why it's an epiphany, you don't seem to believe we're seeing it) you're trying to point out?
    First, I don't know why you felt you had to point out that you're not paying attention to the latest posts since the question you're asking is specific to my post. Second, I was referring to members of the forum who have tried pointing out anything that INFJs do that INFJs disagree with, not just this specific thing. Third, no, you can't ask me who exactly they are and I won't rep or PM usernames to you. I realize you think that I'm exaggerating and that it's only @Mane and @PeaceBaby who have issues with INFJs, but I feel it would be unethical of me to start throwing out names just to provide you with evidence that there are other people on this forum who also have issues with INFJs. Fourth, if it seems to you that I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, then why do you keep asking me to explain it to you? I am still allowed to post my opinion, and even if I get pushy about it sometimes, no one is obligated to read it or act on it. Correct?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    If I started 'defending' people, I'd quickly become the morality police and crash&burn the conversation altogether.
    i don't know why did this:

    didn't help to clarify the matter

    i did entertain the possibility you'd do it literally, but i very much doubted the reason is applicable here: if you ever noticed NTs arguing (or NT stereotypes), the simplest reason required for that is because their opinions and stances are mutually exclusive - essentially one think the other is incorrect and wants to express the reason why. it doesn't need politics or alliances, it doesn't need coming to your friends defense, and it doesn't need to morally judge them for doing something you think is unethical. all it requires is that your arguments and thoughts about something contradict - that your views are mutually exclusives - that they'd disagree. the view you've expressed does come into conflict with the views i quoted, but i don't expect the same social reaction.


    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    But this stood out: "he was hoping to find INFJ's who, purportedly having a good understanding and awareness of their internal processing, could step back and say, "That's a pretty extreme case and here is what you would need to do to help reestablish communications, no guarantees."

    Is that true, @Mane?
    yes - that is my overarching goal -
    (in these threads, in this forum, most of everything for the last two years of my life... so yes).
    and yes, your tips might prove to be very valuable in achieving that - thank you.

    though i think peacebaby's Te gave it a bit of her own twist, so to clarify:
    my goal is to understand what to do and why - to build a mental model of the mentality and what it means that will help me figure out a way to not only do that but adapt to the circumstances and maintain it over time. if i come back into his life only to then be forced into abandoning him again then all i'd be doing is hurting him. this is why i want a way of doing it with honesty - a plan that requires a permanent poker face is in danger of not being sustainable.

  4. #684
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i don't know why did this:
    didn't help to clarify the matter
    I think it did. At least, it gave me the impression that you didn't want or need defending, even though your intuition for patterns got pinged time and again by the things INFJs around here say, because it would be more valuable to you to get to the reason BEHIND why INFJs tend to say the same thing, and to be able to distinguish when an INFJ really can't be reasoned with (because they've decided not to care about you at all anymore) and when they can be reasoned with (because they still care enough), and possibly to understand what you can do (even if that means deciding down the road that it's too much hassle or not something you can sustain without injuring yourself).

    The strategy of calling out 'bad behaviour' (as @PeaceBaby said - maybe she meant 'things you think are incorrect' but I read that as 'things you think are wrong', and to a NiFe user that means 'things you think are harmful to the community/conversation as a whole, because they gum up the wheels or because they damage individuals in the community') didn't seem useful to me - getting THESE INFJs to stop saying certain things wouldn't help you any, especially if the reason INFJs worry you isn't what they say but how they say it; it's something integral to communications patterns that makes it likely to show up in any conversation.

    The NT arguing thing doesn't seem to quite fit the bill here, it seems to me. Maybe I'm more goal oriented than that? I can't be arsed to fight someone 'just' because I think they're wrong about something. I need more reasons than that. Especially in the case of your INFJ quotes - I think they're half wrong, but in a predictable way, and I thought it's more valuable to you and more interesting to me to see if I could unravel them for insight rather than head-butt them.

    Dunno where the whole bit about alliances and friends and politics comes from. Fe stereotype? The morality police was a response to 'bad behaviour' - like I said, I'd rather keep my judgments about ideal/insufficiently ideal behaviour out of this conversation altogether, as it takes away from the goal.

    Hope that clarifies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    though i think peacebaby's Te gave it a bit of her own twist, so to clarify:
    my goal is to understand what to do and why - to build a mental model of the mentality and what it means that will help me figure out a way to not only do that but adapt to the circumstances and maintain it over time. if i come back into his life only to then be forced into abandoning him again then all i'd be doing is hurting him. this is why i want a way of doing it with honesty - a plan that requires a permanent poker face is in danger of not being sustainable.
    Right. I'm on it.

  5. #685
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I want to add for the INFJ's who think they see all the perspectives but are choosing which to invest in: [norml][...][/norml] Therefore, how can anyone choose what to invest in when they don't actually SEE everything in the first place? Shouldn't trying to understand that which you do not comprehend take precedence? Wouldn't it offer fantastic benefits to all of your human interactions to understand? I've been giving away the keys to the castle and it's not even recognized as such.
    This may be a really stupid question, but your post has me stumped.

    How do you make ANY decisions?

    You can't know if someone's going to be a good friend until you trust them with friend-level situations. You can't know if a university is a good match until you take a couple of classes. You can't know if a job will be fulfilling/sustainable/well-paying enough until you're in it. You can't predict exactly how you, others, and the world at large is going to react until you do something.

    Of course you can exercise your moral discernment (good idea anyway if you don't want to be an asshole or a criminal) or do due diligence (good idea, not a moral obligation) - look for red flags and expectation mismatches in the friend, read brochures and talk to students and programme managers for the university, negotiate salary and ask to interview current and former employees for the job, and so on - but you can never really know. There's not such thing as full understanding, and a great way to figure out exactly where your blind spots are is to just start and trust that you're going to be able to maneuver once you've built up some speed. Some people like just jumping in without doing due diligence, other people are more risk averse, but even the risk averse know and understand only a fraction of what there is to know.

    So if you can only make decisions once you see everything, how does that work?

  6. #686
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    if i come back into his life only to then be forced into abandoning him again then all i'd be doing is hurting him.
    You can't predetermine how children are going to interpret things. I realize your situation is different, but those times that my dad came to visit and spent time with me are the only good memories I have of him. I didn't know the full story until just this past July, and the fact that he stayed in Wyoming for 3 years after retiring from the military, mostly because he and my mom were so unhappy in their marriage that staying thousands of miles apart was their solution, made me feel even more like I wasn't important to him. I was only 10 years old at the time. I didn't completely understand why my mom was so bitter. Why she spoke so badly about my dad. He wasn't there to show me that what she said about him maybe wasn't true. And, like most children in these situations do, I thought I was the cause of all the bitterness and anger between them. So, I'm suggesting you rethink this. Maybe it's not all or nothing.

    ETA: If you stay on the sidelines, out of sight, you're leaving him with only one perspective on the matter. And you might be reinforcing her story that you abandoned him, because that's what it'll look like to him with no evidence to the contrary.

    ETA2: For comparison purposes, my parents filed for divorce shortly after I was born but didn't go through with it. Around the time I was two, my dad was continually stationed somewhere away from us and I only saw him when he came to visit during his leaves, or a few times, before I was 5 years old, when we actually made the trip to see him.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #687
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    how does someone with rigid boundaries participate in public discussion and take responsibility for those boundaries without forcing everyone to abide by those same rigid boundaries?
    @Z Buck McFate, let me use a little more personal example. A while back I started to explore aspects of Fe in my blog and elsewhere around the forum. You asked me privately to stop doing so because the subject matter I was exploring upset you. I complied at the time. I complied to your rigid line. And now that I'm not complying anymore, because I did some self-exploration and decided to speak out in the doorslam thread, now that I'm posting according to my own boundaries instead of yours, what do you see as the responsible thing for you to do, given that I'm no longer complying to your rigid lines and some of what I post is upsetting to you?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #688
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    @Z Buck McFate, let me use a little more personal example. A while back I started to explore aspects of Fe in my blog and elsewhere around the forum. You asked me privately to stop doing so because the subject matter I was exploring upset you. I complied at the time. I complied to your rigid line. And now that I'm not complying anymore, because I did some self-exploration and decided to speak out in the doorslam thread, now that I'm posting according to my own boundaries instead of yours, what do you see as the responsible thing for you to do, given that I'm no longer complying to your rigid lines and some of what I post is upsetting to you?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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  9. #689
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    ikr. the lengths the ego can go 2 grasp 4 control & reject/defend itself from threats. simultaneously fascinating, despicable and unsurprising.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #690
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Yeah. Sorry. I had a feeling I should have ignored it when you quoted my response to March. I will answer- out of respect for you and on the chance that you’re actually asking because you want to know- but after that I won’t be returning to this thread. I don’t know what you people get out of this kind of interaction but life is too short for this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    @Z Buck McFate, let me use a little more personal example. A while back I started to explore aspects of Fe in my blog and elsewhere around the forum. You asked me privately to stop doing so because the subject matter I was exploring upset you. I complied at the time. I complied to your rigid line. And now that I'm not complying anymore, because I did some self-exploration and decided to speak out in the doorslam thread, now that I'm posting according to my own boundaries instead of yours, what do you see as the responsible thing for you to do, given that I'm no longer complying to your rigid lines and some of what I post is upsetting to you?

    Uhh.....would you PM this to me please? Unless you're equating "asking you a question about something you posted because it upset me' with "directly asking you to stop posting about it", I seriously can't imagine what you're talking about. Because that's fucked up. I wouldn't ask that, and it truly disturbs me that you’re inserting that meaning into something I’d written you.


    eta: Seriously, it's deeply disturbing me that you somehow pulled that from what I've said to you. I even wrote you a message- after initially getting upset because of something you'd written- telling you I wouldn't be visiting your blog EXPLICITLY FOR THAT REASON. Not only did I never ask you to stop posting, but I let you know I wouldn't be reading it for a while so that you wouldn't feel any pressure in ANY WAY to filter what you posted in your own blog for fear of how I'd react to it. Seriously Eilonwy, I'm not saying this has to mean anything to you- but I'm thoroughly disheartened by this.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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