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  1. #671
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I want to add for the INFJ's who think they see all the perspectives but are choosing which to invest in: I know what it feels like to be understood and heard, and I don't feel it. INFJs historically have not been able to "get" my vantage point and I know many are not seeing Mane's either. Therefore, how can anyone choose what to invest in when they don't actually SEE everything in the first place? Shouldn't trying to understand that which you do not comprehend take precedence? Wouldn't it offer fantastic benefits to all of your human interactions to understand? I've been giving away the keys to the castle and it's not even recognized as such.

    I can guarantee that even though I am more vocal than most, there are people who read what I say and it resonates for them too. I am not alone, more like the tip of the iceberg really.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #672
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    If anyone knows, could someone point out the names of those who are representing ENTPs?
    ✻ღϠ₡ღ✻
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  3. #673
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    [...]In this thread, being in a place discussing typological tendencies, he was hoping to find INFJ's who, purportedly having a good understanding and awareness of their internal processing, could step back and say, "That's a pretty extreme case and here is what you would need to do to help reestablish communications, no guarantees." Instead, he received a whole bunch of judgement, "You must have done something terrible if this happened to you" and denial, "I would NEVER do that / your partner must not be INFJ / you are picking on INFJs / you are mean so you force me to be mean back!" and very little substance or information of value.
    Yep. I threw some of that judgement and denial his way at first, too. And not only his way, but towards others on this forum, too.

    And little emotional consoling either, because Je in general has trouble empathizing with that it does not agree with or understand. I find it fascinating, really.
    Yep, again. I have to monitor myself for this. I haven't been able to completely rid myself of the initial reaction of "wrong", but I have learned to notice that "wrong" and question it. I was noticing and questioning the "wrong" before joining this forum, but what I've learned here is that I was missing a whole big area of "wrong" that I hadn't even noticed existed.

    There may not be an intimate level of relationship, but having a conversation here implies people are at least acquaintances I think. At least I see myself as having a relationship and therefore certain obligations in interacting with anyone here. I do not get to be "rude" just because you cannot see me behind this screen and there are no perceived immediate consequences.
    I do find it easier to forget that the people on the other side of the screen are struggling with life issues, just like I am (as opposed to being able to see people in real life and experience their struggles). It is all too easy for me to imagine that you all have perfect lives, or at least better lives.

    Yes, it is possible, I agree. The difficulty is that, going in, there's a heavy Je investment that your vantage point is correct, and F generally is subjective, so most times, I think I see Je conceding than actually agreeing / adding to / updating a framework.
    I can see this. I haven't been looking for it so I can't bring up any instances of it, but now that you've mentioned it, I'll watch for it.



    ETA: Regarding the third point, in my early days on the forum, your posts, @PeaceBaby, came across as so even-keeled, even when in response to some very hurtful posts, that I assumed that you could take it. That you had some character trait that helped harsh words bounce off of you, leaving you unaffected. But I learned differently during one particularly contentious discussion, when you posted about how what had been said had hurt your feelings. I'm ashamed that it took that for me to realize that your feelings could be hurt.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #674
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    If anyone knows, could someone point out the names of those who are representing ENTPs?
    No.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #675
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    No.
    Wow. That was sneaky of everyone.
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  6. #676
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    An example of INFJ transcendence?

    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #677
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    on the surface, i can see this working out. but if the goal is be able to confront the INFJ honestly, then this isn't always going to be the case.
    the very underlining topic here is an example of what i mean:
    • if your goal is to avoid hurting others, then information about what you do that hurts others and how you impact them is critical for you to achieve your goal.
    • if your goal is to avoid having to think about yourself as someone who would hurt others, then rejecting & doorslamming perspectives in which you are makes sense.
    The bolded part above is pure gold to me, IMO...I can say to myself I didn't intend to hurt that person, but I did, I know I did, and it is some sort of cognitive dissonance to not recognize that...even if I had the best of intentions. Once again, my ego has acted as a blinder, even though I am a very self-effacing individual, I can recognize myself protecting my ego.

    "Hell isn't merely paved with good intentions; it's walled and roofed with them.
    Yes, and furnished too."

    Aldous Huxley

    Just my two cents worth...please don't come out of the woodwork lambasting me for "stalking" this thread and for no reason suddenly appearing and posting (sorry, a bit of trauma left over from the INFJ doorslam thread...and I am INFJ)

    LOL! Love the before and after INFJ transcendence!!
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  8. #678
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Shouldn't trying to understand that which you do not comprehend take precedence? Wouldn't it offer fantastic benefits to all of your human interactions to understand? I've been giving away the keys to the castle and it's not even recognized as such.
    FYI: I have been listening and reflecting...and I thank you for the keys!!
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  9. #679
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Just my two cents worth...please don't come out of the woodwork lambasting me for "stalking" this thread and for no reason suddenly appearing and posting (sorry, a bit of trauma left over from the INFJ doorslam thread...and I am INFJ)
    Well, this just pisses me off. Several new posters appeared in that thread at that time. Heck, it was brought back to life by a new poster. Why anyone would be immature enough to criticize you for posting is beyond me. And to do so outside of the public forum was just cowardly and verging on bullying. Or was that more flak and fallout from my actions? Because if I remember correctly, you posted in support of something I was saying, or in support of @PeaceBaby. I'm so sorry that you got caught up in the middle of that.

    LOL! Love the before and after INFJ transcendence!!
    Thanks.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #680
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, the unintended consequences of me trying to better understand publicly, as opposed to just staying in my blog, is that it's once again become an INFJs attacking Mane free-for-all. I'm just as big a disappointment in that I might be more aware of my own thought processes and more aware of how that impacts others, but I haven't been able to change them to any great degree, so what I say and what I demonstrate still don't match and I still end up hurting people who have been nothing but kind to me. This was the cost for posting that I was talking about. Flak and fallout. No direct consequence to me, but consequences to anyone else who has spoken out. It's most likely unintentional and unconscious, but it's a good way to shut down any dissenting voices. It's why so many who disagree with the most vocal INFJs give up and shut up.

    I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet--give up like the rest, or continue and deal with the fact that by doing so I get by without consequence while others don't.
    I'm honestly not paying attention to latest posts, but for some reason I keep thinking about this. Can I ask, who exactly are "so many" and "the rest"- I presume you're referring to members of the forum who have tried pointing out this specific this thing that INFJs do that (even though it seems to us like we're seeing it and we don't understand why it's an epiphany, you don't seem to believe we're seeing it) you're trying to point out?


    [eta: Or maybe the "so many" is a more general comment about forum dynamics, but not this specific issue.]

    [more eta: also, maybe rep or PM usernames if it's putting people on the spot to list them- I'm just genuinely wondering if more people have actually tried selling this particular 'insight' than I've seen.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

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