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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, I'm very interested in if March still stands by this:
    i should clarify that while it would certainly be a sight for sore eyes, i don't expect @March to go out of her way and confront any of those, both for pragmatic reasons (her own time and effort) and in principle it would be a lot less meaningful (the goal would be to learn how to fish, not have fish served for me).

    what i was pointing out was that the reasons for my accumulated pessimism are neither theoretical in origin or built on my prior experience, but rather they are right here - the main bag of evidence contradicting my hope isn't hidden down in a secret lab, but rather in talking & observing INFJs - many of which are from here. and yes, after two years, my emotional tone on the matter is probably quite jaded.

  2. #642
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #643
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #644
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    At least you didn't pick M.C.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #645
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    At least you didn't pick M.C.
    I prefer this version:



    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #646
    Member March's Avatar
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    Back from a busy week!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    thereby rationalizing the process in which one's response to hearing about someone abandoned mid pregnancy or getting cheated on or loosing their kid or having their house stolen (different people btw) is to attack them
    Here's where my difficulties having different conversations at the same time come in. If I were a in-person friend of yours, all you'd ever hear from me (unless you asked) was "Man, that sucks. What bitches/bastards. I can't imagine how hurt you are. Ugh, the nerve of some people. I hope their decisions come back to bite them in the backside." I'm not defending their actions at all - I think those actions are despicable.

    But right now I'm both sympathetic to your bad experiences with your INFJ ex (I think I have the gist of the story from some other very long threads) and the other INFJ-scorched folks on here, and also an INFJ doing a what's going on behind the scenes/where did we go wrong meta analysis with you.

    Maybe it's a personal flaw and other people have no problems hearing and being heard wearing two hats, but it's hard for me to interpret things 'correctly' if the two aims of receiving emotional support and receiving new perspectives and skills are present at the same time. My - problematic - efforts to juggle them result in monster posts going 'If I interpret X from perspective A, I'd say P, and if I interpret X from perspective B, I'd say Q. But wait - were you maybe thinking of perspective C, D or E? If so, R, S and T. Maybe. Unless F. And oh wait, Q and T are mutually exclusive, so please pick one?' And I don't think anybody wants THAT. :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    then do it: confront an INFJ with a mental image contrary to their ego. show me. if confronting INFJs honestly about real life misgivings is humanly possible, then this should be a piece of cake.
    Haha, I like your conflating of 'humanly possible' and 'piece of cake.' I'll assume that's accidental. (Cause I did not say, nor did I mean to imply, that it's easy. I think it's SIMPLE, but whether it's easy depends on soooo many things.)

    I wish I could 'then do it' on demand, but I can't.

    For one, I don't have an actual beef with the other INFJs you call out (or anyone here), so it would be hypocritical for me to pretend that I do and impossible for me to pick an 'image contrary to their ego' that I think they need to accept. Keyword here is 'real life misgivings,' and right now I don't have any.

    For two, Fe is a relational function - I don't have actual relationships with the other INFJs (nor anyone here), so I have no relationship weight to call on. This would also prevent me from 'calling out' anyone else I'm not in a direct conversation with, by the way, so it's not some secret INFJ-INFJ protection scheme. In other words: why should they care? They have no obligations to me.

    For three, things like solving interpersonal problems in which someone really hurt someone is sacred, intimate, and relationship-dependent to me. You asking 'Well, if you say you are capable of {apologizing properly and taking other people's perspectives into account}, prove it to me by {showing me how you'd do it or ask in such a way that other people will do it}' makes the exact same sense to me as 'Well, if you say you are capable of {putting together a touching wedding proposal}, prove it to me by {going down on one knee for me or asking someone else to go down on one knee for you}' or 'Well, if you say you are capable of {meeting your spouse's sexual needs}, prove it to me by {doing the things you do together for me or asking someone else to display that behaviour}'.

    So I think it's impossible. And even if it weren't, it would be too icky for me to comply, even in jest or to test a hypothesis. Sorry 'bout that. I can tell you HOW I'd do it, but I can't actually DO it.

    I still stand by my claim that it's possible to tell an INFJ the truth about how you feel and what you want and have them accept that truth and change their ways. Some caveats apply, of course, like picking a common language to duke things out in and the INFJ having mental space to think so they don't act stupid, but I think they apply to all fights. If you're interested, I could sketch a hypothetical situation & point out what I think the essentials are.

    --------

    Segue to @Mane's quotes by @the state i am in, @Z Buck McFate and @Werebudgie, and also @PeaceBaby's reply to @Werebudgie.

    I think Z Buck and Werebudgie are talking about the same thing with regards to 'investing in POVs'. I think The state i am in was talking about something else (sounded to me like zie thinks it's HARD to interpret your words the way you intend them, not that zie refuses to do so because zie's decided to disinvest in your POV, but I could be wrong). @PeaceBaby, I'm interpreting your reply to @Werebudgie of "Still, I palpably feel your hurting spaces. I feel you as a real 3 dimensional human being" as describing what you mean by investing, is that correct?

    If so, can y'all who dislike those quotes elaborate a little on what you think investing or choosing not to invest in someone's POV (edited to clarify) MEANS?

    • What does investing in someone's POV (or choosing not to) mean to you in terms of feelings, thoughts, actions, priorities? When they're in the same room with you and when they're not?
    • Is investing in a person a 'requirement for mimimal decency as a person' or an 'above and beyond' thing? Whose POV should a minimally decent POV invest in? If the answer's anything other than 'everyone on earth', what are acceptable ways to distinguish? What percentage of the world's population would it make sense for you to say you're invested in?
    • What's the least amount of effort a person needs to put in to show they're investing in someone's POV? What would be the key difference between 'minimally invested' and 'not invested'?
    • And what's maximum amount of effort a person can expend before they become ridiculously overinvested? Or is there even such a thing?


    Cause from other posts, I'm pretty sure that we all believe things like relationships (edited to add: of any kind) should be good for all people in them, people have the right to enter and leave relationships, people have the right to ask their partner to help meet their needs, people have the right to refuse their partners' needs-meeting requests but shouldn't expect partner to stick around if that happens too often, etc. None of us seems to be devoting 100% of their energy and time to meeting other people's needs arbitrarily and without discrimination. So I'm expecting there to be way more common ground than there currently seems to be.

  7. #647
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    [had a long winded argument that almost obscured the much more important aspect here <- deleted]

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I can tell you HOW I'd do it, but I can't actually DO it.


    I still stand by my claim that it's possible to tell an INFJ the truth about how you feel and what you want and have them accept that truth and change their ways. Some caveats apply, of course, like picking a common language to duke things out in and the INFJ having mental space to think so they don't act stupid, but I think they apply to all fights. If you're interested, I could sketch a hypothetical situation & point out what I think the essentials are.
    yes to the bold.

    also, i your willing - this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    It's like the funhouse mirror or Monster of Frankenstein version of what's going on in me. Most of the parts are there, but the connections are messed up, the relative sizes are wrong, and I don't think it's actually viable. I could try to expand to the regular mirror/regular living human version, sure.
    yes please

  8. #648
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Segue to @Mane's quotes by @the state i am in, @Z Buck McFate and @Werebudgie, and also @PeaceBaby's reply to @Werebudgie.

    I think Z Buck and Werebudgie are talking about the same thing with regards to 'investing in POVs'. I think The state i am in was talking about something else (sounded to me like zie thinks it's HARD to interpret your words the way you intend them, not that zie refuses to do so because zie's decided to disinvest in your POV, but I could be wrong). @PeaceBaby, I'm interpreting your reply to @Werebudgie of "Still, I palpably feel your hurting spaces. I feel you as a real 3 dimensional human being" as describing what you mean by investing, is that correct?

    If so, can y'all who dislike those quotes elaborate a little on what you think investing or choosing not to invest in someone's POV (edited to clarify) MEANS?
    I'm not reading most of the posts in this thread (I only came back to read this one because you tagged me), so I think I'm missing out on what you’re asking here. I had said to Eilonwy in a post: "Just because other points of view exist doesn’t mean it’s worth investing in them." As far as I know, it wasn’t because of anything anyone else said- at least I hadn’t seen anyone else bring the word “invest” into it.

    It seems obvious to me that my comment doesn’t apply to relationships in which there’s already an investment. I was more or less responding to the repeating theme of “there’s another point of view out there that isn’t INFJ, and INFJs should want to see it.” I was disagreeing with the “INFJs should want to see it” aspect.

    In regard to your post- it does seem like the two contexts of “people who are already close to us” and “people we barely know” keep getting convoluted in this whole discussion. These are two very different contexts. It’s very obvious to me that people I am close to/feel invested in are worth the effort of trying to understand their point of view, but people I don’t know well (and don’t particularly want to know well) aren’t. There’s nothing blurry about those lines to me- and yet this post leads me to believe that supposedly it’s being argued that those lines are blurry for INFJs? I don't even know anymore, and I stopped caring. This whole 'what INFJs don't see' tangent is just weird to me, and there are too many people with their own bad experiences projecting too many weird things into what others are saying for this discussion to even begin to feel productive.

    Personally- when my connection to someone is important, I invest far more energy than I should into fixing that connection when it seems broken. 'Sunk cost fallacy'- in regard to saving relationships- is actually a huge problem that I have. I've let people cross boundaries with me because of it (and frankly, the only other person I know with this same problem is also INFJ). I know this is something that’s true about me, and the people who were around to witness this about me know that it’s true. On the other end of the spectrum- there are some people that I just don’t feel compelled to invest much energy into understanding, and I’m okay with that. Usually, for me, that happens because communication feels kind of pointless or vapid (not that there's something pointless or vapid about the person, more that we're just not compatible). There’s no confusion, to me, between those two contexts.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #649
    Member March's Avatar
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    Ah, sorry @Z Buck McFate. I was hesitating whether or not to tag you (because not nice to talk about people without letting them know! because not nice to drag people into something!), and I'm sorry for your confusion. Going for the 'talk about people without involving them' option for now.

    Let the record state that I agree with your post 100%. You weren't the only person using the 'invest' terminology (and if I didn't do it in this thread, I'm sure I've done it elsewhere - it seems like a great term for that). Mane pulled a couple of 'invest' quotes together and linked them to objectification of people, and I think Peacebaby continued on from that.

    I don't think it's being argued that the lines are blurry for INFJs, but rather that it's wrong-headed (or maybe just ill-advised?) of INFJs to have rigid lines like that. Which is why I hoped people who did not use the 'invest' term themselves could explain what they think it means.

  10. #650
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Thread Corollary & OP fallacy: either a change of heart occurs somewhere along the way re investment/willingness to listen/care or misperception exists from the get go that results in/feeds miscommunication.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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