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  1. #611
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    4) Helpful things to do that are specific to the other person - when my husband and I are fighting, it lightens the mood just fractionally if I meow at him like cat and tell him how pretty he is when he frowns. Not something I'd try with my boss or a friend.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #612
    Member March's Avatar
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    @phobik,

    Hahahaha, haven't laughed this hard in ages. It's HORRIFYING yet so, so funny. The brass balls on that kid - Where do you FIND those things?

    Also a great example of what the INFJ strategy prolly looks right when gone wrong or deliberatly employed to avoid responsibility instead of taking it.

    For completeness' sake, I'm happy to let y'all know that I ALSO wouldn't meow at someone if I'd stolen $12,000 from them or endangered their kids. Just in case you were wondering.

  3. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    And what's the snark/earnestness ratio here?
    the only thing i can think of that responded to you and yet carried a tone of snarkiness was the 2nd paragraph here, which served the topic at hand with you as a disclaimer in regards to intent, expressing that while it's rarely a meaningful target, i am not above calling people out on full out contradictions, while also explaining my general jadedness in regards to the general discussion letting it function as a disclaimer in regards to any emotional tones, the later of which i am not always aware of and yet seems to be likely when i am arguing with several in the same time (the irony isn't lost of me - seems i needed a working version of that disclaimer placed before that disclaimer).

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Are the words you use and the links between the arguments (the balded words) your summary, your may-or-may-not-be-accurate memory of what INFJs said verbatim, or an accurate verbatim repeat of the INFJs' argument?
    its just a musing i bounced around awhile ago that might explain this - i can't verify it or substantially argue for or against it one way or the other (are you saying you identify with it? can you expand?)

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    What was your perspective/wish/intent when you said that? Were you looking for a particular kind of response?

    it's entirely possible that you would get the best result from airline by claiming to have a medical condition and be bumped to 1st class, but the usefulness of the matter doesn't affect your health. it might be that children could behave better if you'd remind them they need to get on santa claus's good kids list, but that doesn't support the existence of santa. i know a couple that would have probably stayed together and gained the most if they never talked about their infidelity, but just because making a statement has negative consequences doesn't make the statement incorrect - quite a few pioneers in the European enlightenment have made true statements with horrible consequences. likewise it is entirely possible that bringing up issues of responsibility and causality in regards to actual behavior isn't as useful as presenting faith in one's capacity for desirable behavior - maybe with INFJs in particular or maybe with people in general.

    with regards to the last example, you seemed to have answered the question of assigning the characteristic of a behavior (like calling someone who cheats a cheater or a someone who steals a thief) by saying it isn't useful - i am explaining that the usefulness of saying something doesn't affect whether its true or false.

    so yes - the statement was analogues. as it is here: my problem being that while the discussion seems to focus 2nd (the question of what is), i'm actually more interested in the 1st (the question of practical approach), and to what extent the two can correspond (essentially: when confronting an INFJ, to what extent can i just be honest and allow out relating to things the way i see them vs. just nod and smile and take in whatever narrative makes them feel better). i'll be blunt that right now i tend to believe the later, which is problematic, because i don't see how i could get very good at meeting those requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    This was your original question to me (edited to add 'to me'). Sounded like a call for advice, to me - I have a goal, tell me your ideas about how to best reach it. Is that the perspective you were taking? And if not, or if not solely, which other perspectives did you have when you said this?
    it was to demonstrate the problem with the solution: your adding the intent.
    my own experience and that of others who i talked too coming out of INFJ relationships seem to include the words "are you implying that...."
    since the thread's newly resurrection samvega wrote the example of an INFJ hearing "strange" as accusation of "being weird"
    since then you outright had to add (and color coded) every piece of text that suggested i was accusing you of intent, you read eilonwy as accusing you when she wasn't, you tried establishing a semantic framework in which the accusation of intent must be there, you've tried establishing that the burden of making sure you aren't saying anything that could be understood as meaning something in regards to intent.... but in all of those cases, you don't seem to need anyone to actually say you "your intent is" - you read it as implied, as it seems so do other INFJs.

  4. #614
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the only thing i can think of that responded to you and yet carried a tone of snarkiness was the 2nd paragraph here
    Good to know. That wasn't what twigged my 'don't know if serious radar,' so it helps to have your confirmation that I'm just miscalibrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    its just a musing i bounced around awhile ago that might explain this - i can't verify it or substantially argue for or against it one way or the other (are you saying you identify with it? can you expand?)
    It's like the funhouse mirror or Monster of Frankenstein version of what's going on in me. Most of the parts are there, but the connections are messed up, the relative sizes are wrong, and I don't think it's actually viable. I could try to expand to the regular mirror/regular living human version, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it's entirely possible that you would get the best result from airline by claiming to have a medical condition and be bumped to 1st class, but the usefulness of the matter doesn't affect your health.
    Ah, you're thinking I mean politics.

    I was talking Venn diagrams.

    "Understanding what is, and understanding what useful to express" sounds like you think the latter is unrelated to the former. To get the best result, you could just tell the partial truth (leave things out) or elaborate on the truth (make things up). Venn diagram of two circles that might overlap, might be identical, and might not have any overlap at all.

    While that may be efficient, it's deceptive. It's fraud. And I'd rather die than treat my spouse that way just to get 'what I want', and you don't seem to like it much either - part of we want is to be able to express ourselves without too much handwringing and hoop-jumping and be appreciated for who we are.

    "There is the question of responsibility, and there's the question of how to discourage people from repeating the behaviors", on the other hand, can't be described by that same Venn diagram, in my mind.

    Seems to me that if people take responsibility, that automatically discourages them from repeating the behaviors. So those circles always overlap at least partially, and probably by a lot. (The nonoverlapping part is 'other factors that discourage people from repeating the behaviors, such as 'getting sick', 'car breaks down' and other things - not interesting to us.) In fact, I'd say that if you don't at least pay attention not to repeat the behavior, you've only paid lip service to the idea of taking responsibility and you've not actually done it.

    So 'the question of responsibility' and 'how to get them to not do it again' are roughly the same thing to me, and they do not include having to hide part of the truth or making stuff up. In fact, I'd suggest telling MORE of the truth should do the trick. And that also means that it's hard to impossible to separate 'the first' from 'the second' - I might be able to do it if you're very clear about exactly what you mean, maybe including venn diagrams.

    And I'm absolutely convinced that your option A is feasible when you say
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    (essentially: when confronting an INFJ, to what extent can i just be honest and allow out relating to things the way i see them vs. just nod and smile and take in whatever narrative makes them feel better).
    Even though I also understand you're not feeling too optimistic about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it was to demonstrate the problem with the solution: your adding the intent.
    Nah, not what I meant. In the previous thread we talked, I left you hanging when you asked
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    how do you make sure that telling them "you've being an asshole, please stop being an asshole" or describing the consequences of actions and choices they made which "imply that they are" is understood as something that they have control over rather than a static absolute? why is it even interpreted in terms of intent? is pointing out the consequences assumed as claiming those where the intentions? how to withhold the jump from an exhibited trait ("i am an asshole") to defining themselves by it completely ("maybe that's all i am")? how can you present them with devaluing elements of reality without them feeling powerless to change it?
    That sounded like a call for advice.

    My making explicit what I thought you meant was a (misguided, in retrospect) attempt to answer that call.

  5. #615
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Haha, I can agree with that, @Winds of Thor!

    Someone said upthread (*goes looking* ah it was you yourself, how poetic) that the most difficult courses end up being the most enjoyable and rewarding. But people only have a snowball's chance in hell to survive those difficult courses if they'd laid the groundwork.

    Don't sign up for an advanced college-level quantum physics course unless you have a working grasp of college-level physics, for which you need high-school level physics, for which you need math, for which you need arithmetic.

    I'm 31 years old, and from this thread it's obvious that there's no point in me signing up for the ENTP waiting list, no matter how rewarding it might be. But I don't think that's a negative, per se. Lots of other rewarding courses out there that are 'just' difficult enough to be interesting.
    Thank you. I laughed at your comments here.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  6. #616
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Unfortunately, we can still go batshit crazy on you at 50. But at least we might be able to admit to it. Still lots of room for improvement.
    Haa!! funny.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  7. #617
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Finally got to watch. These were both excellent. Thanks for posting them.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #618
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So, please, don't feel like you have to apologise for being Ni-dom, and don't force yourself to acquiesce more than you feel ready for - just see if you can be open to the feedback and process it at your leisure.
    Purposely cherry-picking. I did notice the "Which you seem to be doing" part.

    Asking for clarity: Does it look like I've been forcing myself to acquiesce?

    My experience of it: Forcing myself isn't quite right; it depends on the context. And, as far as the whole experience is concerned, I haven't been reluctant to go through it. It's been my choice the whole way through. I enjoy the challenge. I want to learn and grow. This is my online version of "live and learn".*

    Addressing the first part of the quote: I would be lying if I said I haven't felt like apologizing for being, well, INFJ, rather than Ni-dom. In fact, I have apologized for it several times. But there have been different levels in my head to that, too. Whenever there was some sort of realization, finally seeing the behavior in myself, or in others and being able to relate it to myself, there was always an "oh shit" moment. I'm beginning to realize that maybe I still do the atonement thing, even though I know that feeling bad isn't going to atone for anything. But I'm also wondering if there's some purpose to it--if all of the emotion somehow helps to fix the lesson in my brain? It's not like when something 'clicks' for me, so it doesn't seem to stay with me in the same way, but maybe it helps associate feeling bad with the behavior. Just speculating.

    Anyway, it's a learning process for me. It seems to me that I'm concentrating on the negative parts because those were missing from my framework. Eventually, I'll integrate them in with the positive parts for a fuller and, hopefully, more realistic picture of myself. The positives are still in there somewhere--maybe as an anchor of sorts. And I think that there's enough of a reserve of positives that the negatives aren't going to destroy me.

    *ETA: There is another layer, too, that's about being useful. So, if what I learn can help someone else, that's a huge motivator for me, too.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #619
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Purposely cherry-picking. I did notice the "Which you seem to be doing" part.

    Asking for clarity: Does it look like I've been forcing myself to acquiesce?

    My experience of it: Forcing myself isn't quite right; it depends on the context. And, as far as the whole experience is concerned, I haven't been reluctant to go through it. It's been my choice the whole way through. I enjoy the challenge. I want to learn and grow. This is my online version of "live and learn".

    Addressing the first part of the quote: I would be lying if I said I haven't felt like apologizing for being, well, INFJ, rather than Ni-dom. In fact, I have apologized for it several times. But there have been different levels in my head to that, too. Whenever there was some sort of realization, finally seeing the behavior in myself, or in others and being able to relate it to myself, there was always an "oh shit" moment. I'm beginning to realize that maybe I still do the atonement thing, even though I know that feeling bad isn't going to atone for anything. But I'm also wondering if there's some purpose to it--if all of the emotion somehow helps to fix the lesson in my brain? It's not like when something 'clicks' for me, so it doesn't seem to stay with me in the same way, but maybe it helps associate feeling bad with the behavior. Just speculating.

    Anyway, it's a learning process for me. It seems to me that I'm concentrating on the negative parts because those were missing from my framework. Eventually, I'll integrate them in with the positive parts for a fuller and, hopefully, more realistic picture of myself. The positives are still in there somewhere--maybe as an anchor of sorts. And I think that there's enough of a reserve of positives that the negatives aren't going to destroy me.
    That's all I was looking for. Maybe it's the Fi-hang-up thing, but I hate to see people bending over backwards for others at the expense of who they are. It puts them at risk for self-flagellation, martyr syndrome and generally being miserable for no good reason. Otoh, the willingness to grow and integrate things is
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #620
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    And the emotional/judgmental stuff gets in the way, too. Fe gets in the way.
    Fe is not in the way, you need it. I think one of the most concise things I've read on Fe in INFJ is on the personalitypages.com website. Here's an excerpt:

    When Introverted iNtuition dominates the INFJ such that the other functions cannot serve their own purposes, we find the INFJ cutting off information that it needs to consider. If the psyche is presented with information that looks anything like something that Introverted iNtuition has processed in the past, it uses Extraverted Feeling to quickly reject that information. The psyche uses Extraverted Feeling to reject the ideas, rather than taking the information into its intuitive framework, and therefore potentially causing that framework to be reshaped and redefined.

    Using Extraverted Feeling in this manner may effectively serve the immediate needs of Introverted iNtuition, but it is not ideal. It causes the INFJ to not consider information that may be useful or criticial in developing a real understanding of an issue. It may cause the INFJ to come off as too strongly opinionated or snobbish to others.

    The better use of Extraverted Feeling for an INFJ would be to use it to assess the INFJ's rich insights and weigh them against the external world. When the INFJ personality uses Extraverted Feeling to cut off incoming information, rather than to judge internal intuitions, it is effectively cheating itself. It's like getting the answers to a test without having to really understand the questions. It's easier to get the answer right away, rather than to have to figure everything out. For the INFJ, who has a tremendous amount of information and "studying" that needs to be done, it's very tempting to take shortcuts. Most INFJs will do this to some extent. The real problems occur when an INFJ personality has become so imbalanced that its owner is extremely self-important and rarely consider anyone else's opinions or ideas.

    Solutions

    To grow as an individual, the INFJ needs to focus on applying their judgment to things only after they have gone through their intuition. In other words, the INFJ needs to consciously try not to use their judgment to dismiss ideas prematurely. Rather, they should use their judgment against their own ideas. One cannot effectively judge something that they don't understand. The INFJ needs to take things entirely into their intuition in order to understand them. It may be neccesary to give your intuition enough time to work through the new information so that it can rebuild its global framework of understanding. INFJs need to focus on using their judgment not to dismiss ideas, but rather to support their intuitive framework.

    An INFJ who is concerned with personal growth will pay close attention to the subject of their judgments, and their motivation for making judgments. Are they judging something external to themself, or are they judging something that they have sifted through their intuition? Is the motivation for judging something to be able to understand its usefulness in the world, or to dismiss it? Too often, an INFJ will judge something without properly understanding it, and with the intention of dismissing it. Seek first to understand, then to judge.
    Link: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INFJ_per.html


    This is what I think you're doing, here, lately, in this thread and in your blog. Using your Fe on YOU in this healthy way to expand your framework and not on others for the purpose of retaining an existing one. I think there's a fair corollary in that as an Fi user I have had to learn to use Fi on OTHERS and not just me. Meaning, when people treat me badly it's not because I was wrong or stupid or deserved it somehow. I need to look OUT. As I see it and have shared in the past, it's about using your Fe IN. I wish I had better words to explain.

    Fe is your friend. It really, really is. The evidence is in the process you are experiencing. It is enabling you to expand your framework in positive ways, optimize your interactions with others, learn more about YOU in that process too. But it's a long and slow task. The only advantage I've had is a head-start since the world is not patient with Pe users and I've had to adapt from a younger age. We are all still learning, really.

    So, you have nothing to apologize for in any way.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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