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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Anyway, I'm not sure what my point is. To me, Ne vs Ni is all just point of view. Sometimes I get a little irritated with Ni-Doms and their seeming inability to take in new approaches once they get stuck on a certain track. On the other hand, I certainly admire their sharpness on a given issue when it comes time to hone an idea down to its most perfect expression.
    Just wanted to follow up on a point. The following is a partial cross-post from another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    [...]Example using Te and Ti:

    Te operates on an ad-hoc basis, coming up with real-time organizational tools for real-time problems. Ti, on the other hand, takes problems down into an internal laboratory and works out tools for that problem as well as a number of related problems, i.e., it works out a personal logical system for handling a broad array of similar problems. In that respect, Ti works out a kind of internal "delta" of Te. That is, it tracks lots of related or similar Te possibilities and works out an internal, personalized Ti system for handling them.

    Extending that example to Fe and Fi:

    Similarly, Fe works on an ad-hoc basis out in the world with emotional and social tools. By comparison, Fi takes such things down into an internal laboratory and works out a larger personalized system for handling such problems. As in the previous example, Fi works out a kind of internal "delta" of Fe.[...]
    I think the same principle applies to Ne and Ni: Ne is ad hoc and operates out in the world; whereas Ni takes things down into an internal laboratory and tries to extract the principles that motivate or connect together related issues or events in the outer world.

    In each case, the extroverted function out of each introverted/extroverted function pair deals with real-world events, whereas the introverted function tries to fabricate a system by working out the "delta" of real-world events and trying to extract the principle behind the events.

    That would seem to make the introverted version of each function pair more far-sighted and "deeper." And there is some truth to that. But at the same time, the introverted version of each function pair also tends to demonstrate more tunnel vision. The introverted version is operating at a remove from actual events and issues (i.e., in dealing with the principle rather than the event or issue itself); and the habit of grasping at a principle may cause the introverted function to disregard real-world issues and events that don't fit the principle neatly or contradict the principle outright. Alternatively, the principle that is derived may simply be misguided: The introverted function may falsely derive a principle or connection between events that simply doesn't exist in real life.

    I know that my own Fi-Dom is prone to these issues; hence I tend to regard Fe as a more "real-time" and useful function when dealing with real-world issues. And I expect the introverted versions of other functions-pairs (both perceiving and judging) would have these same problems.

    Of course, both the introverted and extroverted versions of each function pair have an important role to play. It's the interplay between the practical (extroverted) and the theoretical (introverted). As I said elsewhere, Ne is about innovation; Ni is about optimization. Both are needed.

    At the same time it's important to keep in mind that both the introverted and extroverted versions of each function pair can be rather one-sided and limited, each in their own way; which makes it all the more important to develop strongly at least one's top two functions as a balance to each other, rather than depending solely on one's Dominant function.

    YMMV

  2. #602
    Member March's Avatar
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    Hi @Mane,

    Thanks. OK, I'll point out a couple of things that are confusing to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    that's why i asked you how do you communicate to an INFJ when they've screwed you over without them jumping to intent - the mental leap to what might something imply isn't controllable externally.
    This was your original question to me (edited to add 'to me'). Sounded like a call for advice, to me - I have a goal, tell me your ideas about how to best reach it. Is that the perspective you were taking? And if not, or if not solely, which other perspectives did you have when you said this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    there is the question of responsibility, and there's the question of how to discourage people from repeating the behaviors:


    understanding what is, and understanding and what is useful to express.
    What was your perspective/wish/intent when you said that? Were you looking for a particular kind of response?

    Also: Are these two lines meant to be completely analogous (cow:mammal=tuna:fish)? (You seemed to imply so by talking about 'the first' and 'the second.') 'Cause in my world, they're definitely not, so that would mean more information's needed before we can find each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    not to over extent the metaphor, i have had conversations that have suggested that to some extent INFJs view their decisions and motivations to be no different from a starving man's hunger - essentially that whatever it is they ended up doing was so clear to them as the only thing they could do - that they had to do - that if there was something wrong in what they did it means there is something wrong with who they are. i haven't gone so far as testing this though.
    This seems like the crux of the issue to me.

    Are the words you use and the links between the arguments (the bolded words) your summary, your may-or-may-not-be-accurate memory of what INFJs said verbatim, or an accurate verbatim repeat of the INFJs' argument?

    What perspective were you taking when you said this in the thread? Were you looking for/hoping for a certain response? And what's the snark/earnestness ratio here?

    Three seems enough for now.

  3. #603
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    @Eilonwy, in response to the point that you keep bringing up: I'm sorry, I'm going to have to plead terminal stupidity again because I just can't get what you're saying. Or rather, I don't get why this an epiphany?

    I'm married to an ISTJ. We've been together for nearly 14 years, which in 3 years will be half my lifetime. As you can imagine, it hasn't been one smooth road of mutual appreciation and understanding - his 'natural' SiTe interpretations of my actions would lead him to think I thought he could never do anything right, and my 'natural' NiFe interpretations of his actious would lead ME to think that he doesn't care about me, like me, or respect me. Both of which aren't true.

    But it gets tiresome to have the same fight over and over again, so one learns. (One thing one learns is that it's okay to have the same fight over and over again, as long as it doesn't damage the structural integrity of the relationship - apparently every couple has at least a couple of things they just can't agree on.)

    So we both learned a lot of things.
    1) Unhelpful things we do in general that are just annoying and we should weed them out - in my case, things like expecting people to mean things in a long-term way, even when they're stressed. Instead, I've learned to withhold judgement and clarify in low-stress times. But with each new person I meet I still need to check which side they fall on - assuming someone's judgements are short-term when they're actually long-term is as much a mistake as the opposite.
    2) Helpful things to do in general that we should do more of - emotional self-care during fights, communicating clearly during fights and in general so things don't end up being fights. Practice, practice, practice, learn some grace.
    3) Unhelpful things that are specific to the other person - hazarding a guess as to the other person's emotional state is generally considered kosher, but my husband has a hair trigger for that, so best to avoid it.
    4) Helpful things to do that are specific to the other person - when my husband and I are fighting, it lightens the mood just fractionally if I meow at him like cat and tell him how pretty he is when he frowns. Not something I'd try with my boss or a friend.

    I could go on and on but won't bore you. 3 and 4 are generally useless outside of the specific context, but 1 and 2 go with you wherever you go.

    (Of course we're both PiJe peeps. The dynamic would probably be different in other combinations. But I'll come right out and say that even though it's a Ji function like my own dominant, Si has been a beast for me to wrap my head around - I still don't grok it, or course, but my heuristics are getting prettttty nice, and I definitely felt like the stupidest person on earth for a looong time while developing them.)

    For me, steering by 'see yourself from the other's POV' is not very helpful. 'Cause I'm never really sure of the other's POV - see the trouble I have in understanding what @Mane's saying. At this time, there are about 10 POVs of me and my behaviour and INFJs in general I think he could reasonably be expected to have, and all of them require different actions from me, some mutually exclusive. Of course that probably works better if someone comes out and say 'My POV is...', but even then there are a couple of very reasonable POVs that would allow for someone saying that, and it wouldn't be a reliable way to distinguish between them. And if my next 'to do item' is both 'do X' and 'do Y, which precludes X', I freeze. (Also a pattern. :p But the right way to go about having a brain sensitive to that pattern isn't to NOT have that pattern, it's to figure out ways to avoid triggering that pattern and ways to get out of it if it does trigger.)

    My guideline is usually 'does it work?' What does the person I'm talking to need? (Don't assume it's the same thing I need!) Does doing a thing result in the person I'm talking to feeling more or less stressed out? More or less understood? More or less trusting about the future? That's information that IS available to me (although on a message board that's not sophisticated enough to really steer by, and some people I find way harder to read in text than others). That never freezes me up, 'cause there's always something to try and as long as there's something to try I have hope, which gives me the energy to keep trying. (On message boards, it's not hope that drives me to keep posting but curiosity.)

    I think you should work WITH what you have. Let's say NiFe is water - it can be devastating in floods or tsunamis. But that's not a reason to get rid of it, even if you could. It's more efficient to harness it instead and use it to power turbines or irrigate fields, and take precations to avoid floods and not build in tsunami area. If I expect to be able to it to burn or be impervious to gravity, though, I'll be disappointed. No matter how awesome fire is and how much I'd like to be that instead.

    Some needs are fundamental and you can't unlearn. But I do think everyone can learn to get their needs met in ways that are maybe counterintuitive but also more productive than the default setting.

  4. #604
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    the funny thing is, most of the time the points of view Ni doms "choose between" don't contradict in themselves - its choosing one or the other when neither is the basis to contradict the other - instead they seem to contradict in the meaning they attempting to convey.

    this can be seen throughout this thread, and even in regards to this very topic - and it's very visible above with werebudgie & z buck:
    they are saying "but i have a right & need to do X!!!"
    i am saying" "...so you can't be trusted to not do X"
    (wherein X is discounting of undesirable points of view)

    not only do the two non contradict in anyway substantial way, but they have identical starting assumptions.

    so where does the need to pick one over the other stems from?
    as the general pattern goes, the contradiction isn't in the argument, but in the narrative the statement says:
    • the first enables the tale of a people prosecuted and made to feel bad for who they are and have no choice to be.
    • the second describes describes the consequences that behavior has on the basic assumptions of human trust.

    they can't tell the first story that comforts them if you allow the story which conflicts with it.

    edit: that was meant to follow cafe's response a page ago.

  5. #605
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I hear you. But in my last post, I asked for you to forget all the other stuff, all the pov stuff, that I've said. I said I was trying to narrow it down for you, posed a question (bolded in my quote below), and asked for you to focus on that question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I was trying to get you to think about the thought processes that went into your interpretation of my quote. Could there be something about INFJ thought processes, that combo of NiFeTiSe, that might lead to a consistent pattern of responses that INFJs are unaware of?


    ETA: I'm trying to narrow this down for you. Forget about all the other stuff I've said and start from here. And take your time. Don't feel you have to deal with this right now.

    ETA2: Sorry. There's also the choice to not deal with it at all. Which is also okay.
    I want to reiterate, I know how mentally taxing and confusing this can be, especially because you're having two different conversations at the same time. So, I'm going to bow out and let you put all of your concentration into your conversation with Mane. If you're still interested, we can pick this conversation up later.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I want to reiterate --> "Could there be something about INFJ thought processes, that combo of NiFeTiSe, that might lead to a consistent pattern of responses that INFJs are unaware of?"
    Ah, I didn't realize you literally wanted to leave out all context.

    In which case this becomes extremely easy to answer.

    Of course. That's the whole definition of cognitive functions, right, that some things are so ingrained we don't even consider them a choice, find it hard to conceive other people don't have the same shortcuts and find it even harder to literally see things from another's POV?

    Edited to add: Just noticed that your quote can be taken both generally and specifically - cognitive functions cause blind spots, or INFJ functions in particular cause more blind spots than others. Not sure if I'd agree with that per se, but I'd be willing to entertain the notion if you talked about it a little more. I know a lot of clueless people, including myself.

    What's the point of your point?

  7. #607
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Ok. INFJs just need to live. Experience. And by the time they're 50, you might have consistent pleasant conversations with them. That's my exp. anyway.

    ENTPs take 4 decades to mature enough to consistently be mature. So I guess the two get together after long roads of learning and maturing.

    All this stuff here is pushing. Which is good to know stuff. But it ain't gonna change how people are, at least probably not to any level of happiness.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  8. #608
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Welp. At least INTJ-ENFP threads aren't the only catastrophic cluster fuck around here, despite being considered 'ideal' in theory.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

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    Haha, I can agree with that, @Winds of Thor!

    Someone said upthread (*goes looking* ah it was you yourself, how poetic) that the most difficult courses end up being the most enjoyable and rewarding. But people only have a snowball's chance in hell to survive those difficult courses if they'd laid the groundwork.

    Don't sign up for an advanced college-level quantum physics course unless you have a working grasp of college-level physics, for which you need high-school level physics, for which you need math, for which you need arithmetic.

    I'm 31 years old, and from this thread it's obvious that there's no point in me signing up for the ENTP waiting list, no matter how rewarding it might be. But I don't think that's a negative, per se. Lots of other rewarding courses out there that are 'just' difficult enough to be interesting.

  10. #610
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Ok. INFJs just need to live. Experience. And by the time they're 50, you might have consistent pleasant conversations with them. That's my exp. anyway.

    ENTPs take 4 decades to mature enough to consistently be mature. So I guess the two get together after long roads of learning and maturing.

    All this stuff here is pushing. Which is good to know stuff. But it ain't gonna change how people are, at least probably not to any level of happiness.
    Unfortunately, we can still go batshit crazy on you at 50. But at least we might be able to admit to it. Still lots of room for improvement.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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