User Tag List

First 1050585960616270 Last

Results 591 to 600 of 870

  1. #591
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    But keep in mind that what "shifting POVs" actually are to us as Ni-doms isn't the same as what it is for you as a Ne-dom. Not the same at all. Here's a description from the recently posted type descriptions on this site:



    Does that clarify what I mean at all?

    (and again, for the larger discussion more than for you, Amargith, I want to be very clear that my friendship with my actual ENTP friend doesn't run into all this drama generated in this thread on this site, despite Ni-dom versus Ne-dom differences. We are whole people to each other in a way that doesn't seem to happen much here on this site in threads like this, and what I mean by that is that we see each other as people first, type second, and the type talk is about good faith understanding in a context of existing good will. etc).
    I'm aware of this - I live with one. We make a kick-ass team due to this. But that is also because he has realised that he focuses on the 'main lines' and develops them thoroughly whereas I hunt down options he never thought of before. What I'm trying to say is that, while I very much know that you are open to options within the idea itself, you can be very hung up on the main idea itself - which to us can seem...rigid. However, that does not mean there is anything wrong with that preference or outlook on life. There are 8 different functions and all of them are an equally valid look on life.

    I was the one btw who repped Eilonwy about this being perhaps a dominant function issue. Getting stuck in your dominant function because it feels like second nature is only normal - everyone does it to certain extent. But sure, it does help to be aware of other people using another look on life that is equally valid - especially on here, where we're limited to text-based communication only and the focus is inherently on how different we are.

    Iow, yes, INxJs can get stuck in their Ni to the point where they can seem rigid and hard to talk to, just like an Fe-dom can be stuck on the priorities of its functions and so on, for each function. Hell, our bender about seeing all angles and the patterns that emerge can be construed as a dominant function fix just the same, for that matter. And yes, there is validity to honouring your dom, but being able to step out of your dominant function definitely adds a flexibility and a different view on things that can often aid in clearing up misunderstandings and dealing with situations for which your dom is maybe not as suited.

    At the same time, I'm very much for honouring who you are and working with the strengths you've got - and being aware of the weaknesses that come with those strengths -, so far be it from me to make INFJs apologise for who they are and how they work.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #592
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    However, that does not mean there is anything wrong with that preference or outlook on life. There are 8 different functions and all of them are an equally valid look on life.
    More and more my observations of the dynamics on (some parts of) this site show me how crucial this perspective is for me - the equal validity of each of the functions and for me, the function combinations. I'm really getting focused on this kind of basic respect as a necessary foundation for what I would consider a useful discussion of differences and functions and type.

    At the same time, I'm very much for honouring who you are and working with the strengths you've got - and being aware of the weaknesses that come with those strengths -, so far be it from me to make INFJs apologise for who they are and how they work.
    Largely because of the imbalances I see here on this site, this basic foundation of respect really is where I'm focusing more and more. It's missing here. A lot, in some threads at least. The difference between how type/function talk flows in my personal connections, and how it flows on this site in these kinds of threads is - well, actually almost shocking to me.

  3. #593
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default



    We're all learning. What you consider the basic foundation of respect is something that comes naturally to you (Fe) and can be very difficult for someone else who doesn't need those 'pink bows' added and just wants to get to the core of it all. And who is to say that his preference in matters of 'respect' is any less valuable than his?

    And sure, you can demand that they learn to speak with that respect first and adhere to your standard of it but that puts you at risk of dismissing the potential vital feedback or information within his words because they were packaged in a to you sub-standard way.

    I get that you feel pushed into a corner right now and that something very important to you - that respect - is missing. But I did my best to present that information *with* the big pink bow and you still cherry-picked the things that would allow you to defend yourself and your pov to quote.

    It is your choice whether you take it on board - nobody can make you. But I'm asking you to not forget the parts you *didn't* quote. And consider taking them on board, perhaps after this thread has cooled down.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  4. #594
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    We're all learning. What you consider the basic foundation of respect is something that comes naturally to you (Fe) and can be very difficult for someone else who doesn't need those 'pink bows' added and just wants to get to the core of it all. And who is to say that his preference in matters of 'respect' is any less valuable than his?

    And sure, you can demand that they learn to speak with that respect first and adhere to your standard of it but that puts you at risk of dismissing the potential vital feedback or information within his words because they were packaged in a to you sub-standard way.

    I get that you feel pushed into a corner right now and that something very important to you - that respect - is missing. But I did my best to present that information *with* the big pink bow and you still cherry-picked the things that would allow you to defend yourself and your pov to quote.

    It is your choice whether you take it on board - nobody can make you. But I'm asking you to not forget the parts you *didn't* quote. And consider taking them on board, perhaps after this thread has cooled down.
    Ooooh, my apologies, please know that I didn't have any problem with what you wrote at all! I didn't feel pushed into a corner or that you were missing that respect I was writing about, I was attending/referring to the larger context of the thread and others like it I've seen on this site.

    That said, in response to the abovequoted comment: at this stage in my own trajectory, I myself am not here looking for people to "teach" me about myself. While I understand that being teacher in this way is a role that seems ... I don't know, appealing? for some (I don't know if it is for you or not), I can say that anyone who interacts with me as if that is their task (in relation to me in particular) is on their own personal agenda/mission, rather than in thoughtful interaction with me in a significant way. I want to be clear, though, that in this I am very specifically speaking for myself.

    eta: *thinking* ..... you know, is there actually some sort of implicit or explicit group cultural agreement on this site that anyone engaging here by definition (meaning, simply by virtue of their/our participation) wants others to play that kind of psychological teacher role? Like, simply by the act of participating here, am I actually saying in the site's cultural vernacular, "Please, assume I explicitly want others to tell me what they assess I don't know and/or should in their view look at about myself under the guise of 'for your own good though right now you don't consciously realize it'" teaching? Not rhetorical questions.

  5. #595
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    I'm just coming in at the end, here. Is the dispute at this point mainly about Ne vs Ni?

    When I worked at a translater at one of the big international organizations I often had to translate sensitive documents, such as major diplomatic speeches, etc. With the really touchy translations, the usual routine was to have one translator do the initial translation and then have a second translator edit that initial translation.

    The best combination was to have an Ne-user and an Ni-user work together. Ne-users were great at brainstorming lots of possible ways to handle a really sticky passage; Ni-users were great at taking a number of possible translations of a sticky passage and deciding which was the best one of the batch or at honing a given translation down to its most perfect expression. Ne is about innovation; Ni is about optimization.

    Being an Ne-user, I really appreciated the skills of Ni-users. I worked closely with an INFJ for many years, and occasionally with an ENFJ. We would take a particularly difficult Russian passage (lots of nuances, slang, sarcasm, double meanings, folk sayings, etc.) and spend hours batting back and forth that one passage trying to find the best way to express it in English. If the translation just wasn't clicking, I could come up with a whole new approach to the passage; and the Ni-user could spot any little inaccuracy or undue slack and hone the passage to perfection.

    I would get the Ni-user to enunciate precisely why they preferred one possible translation over another, and over the years I got pretty good at anticipating their needs and even doing a fair Ni analysis of a passage myself. In time I could sit down with another Ne-user and act as an Ni-user myself, i.e., by analyzing and spelling out exactly why one passage was demonstrably better than another. In the latter years I worked closely with an ENTP translator as my secondary on difficult translations, and I could feel a kind of Ni-user irritation with the ENTP as he came up with all kinds of good possible translations but seemed to be blind to nuances and qualitative differences in the various alternatives.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what my point is. To me, Ne vs Ni is all just point of view. Sometimes I get a little irritated with Ni-Doms and their seeming inability to take in new approaches once they get stuck on a certain track. On the other hand, I certainly admire their sharpness on a given issue when it comes time to hone an idea down to its most perfect expression.

    When Ni-Doms are complaining about a personal problem, personally I would prefer that they be a little more open to new ideas. Usually it seems like they're too invested in their current approach and they're just looking for ways to tweak their current approach, whereas I feel they need to strike out in a whole new direction if they really want a fix for their problem.

    But I know from my work experiences that it's possible to bridge the gap with a little patience. The two types can learn to work together over time. In the meantime, when Perceivers (ENTPs, ENFPs, or whatever) want to influence Judgers (INFJs, INTJs), the usual advice is for the Perceiver to plant the idea and then back off and give the Judger time to consider the possibilities at their own pace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    [...]you know, is there actually some sort of implicit or explicit group cultural agreement on this site that anyone engaging here by definition (meaning, simply by virtue of their/our participation) wants others to play that kind of psychological teacher role? Like, simply by the act of participating here, am I actually saying in the site's cultural vernacular, "Please, assume I explicitly want others to tell me what they assess I don't know and/or should in their view look at about myself under the guise of 'for your own good though right now you don't consciously realize it'" teaching? Not rhetorical questions.
    Fe-users like to vocalize their problems, complaints, pet peeves, etc. It's in the nature of Fe, an extroverted function: Fe-users look for appreciative listeners in order to bounce a few ideas off them. Ne-users respond by brainstorming fixes for the problem. But Ni-users don't like Ne fixes, and Fe causes them to vocalize their displeasure. Which causes the Ne-user to complain in turn that the Fe-user wants to complain and whine but won't accept helpful advice when offered. And so on.

  6. #596
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Nothing seems accurate to INFJs consistently. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

    Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.
    Best I can do at the level I'm at right now is "I don't know". Sorry about that.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #597
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Keep in mind that to an Ne-dom who lives a pattern recognition world, where shifting povs and looking at things from different angles is second nature, you guys look occasionally mind numbingly static and stuck in your Ni vision. I'm not going to deny you see other information, but the way you dismiss it and the things you miss....have a way of making us occasionally wanna ram our head through the wall - that is, when we're not working together as a team. Then Ne-Ni is one *hell* of a combo.
    I can see glimpses of this. I can definitely see the "ram your head through a wall" part. I don't see what I miss, but I know I'm missing it. I'm not all the way there yet. Not sure if I can get there or not.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #598
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But I did my best to present that information *with* the big pink bow and you still cherry-picked the things that would allow you to defend yourself and your pov to quote.

    It is your choice whether you take it on board - nobody can make you. But I'm asking you to not forget the parts you *didn't* quote. And consider taking them on board, perhaps after this thread has cooled down.
    I can see this happening. I'm sure I probably still do it--the cherry-picking. Sometimes I can see that I did it after the fact, sometimes I still need it pointed out to me. The learning takes time and practice for me, and lots of patience from all of you.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #599
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I can see this happening. I'm sure I probably still do it--the cherry-picking. Sometimes I can see that I did it after the fact, sometimes I still need it pointed out to me. The learning takes time and practice for me, and lots of patience from all of you.
    It will - and we'll need the same from you to do the same with our dominant function, trust me. And of course, it is your choice (and ours for that matter) whether or not you want to make that investment in potential personal growth, if you're ready and if it would be beneficial to you in your stage of life atm. It can do wonders for broadening ones view and inter type communication, I feel, but there are other things in life that can take priority, for sure. I also believe one should never have to apologise for the preferences in life one has, just as ignoring other's preferences is likely not going to be that productive either. So, please, don't feel like you have to apologise for being Ni-dom, and don't force yourself to acquiesce more than you feel ready for - just see if you can be open to the feedback and process it at your leisure.

    Which you seem to be doing
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #600
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    @Z Buck McFate, the main problem with me not being able to explain properly is that I don't actually see from another pov atm. I'm not sure if it's possible for me to completely see from another pov, but I'm still working towards that. The best I can do right now is see some of the patterns that have been pointed out to me. I can see my own behaviors--sometimes on my own, sometimes after the fact, sometimes when pointed out to me, sometimes not at all. I'm not sure how much I can actually work out on my own, or how much I need more external input, but I do definitely need external input and guidance or I can get stuck or get off on the wrong track. It's also a much slower process for me without the external input.

    Like the recent posts have said, I don't see the possibilities, so working them out on my own is a long, slow process. And the emotional/judgmental stuff gets in the way, too. Fe gets in the way. I mean, how freaking long did it take to see one simple definition and internalize it? Slow processing area for us. Concept didn't click. We need our hands held in certain areas, but we don't like that because it's difficult and humbling and we're used to that feeling of having things click and just getting it. We don't "just get" this.

    And we make the mistake of thinking that the way it's presented will make it easier to understand. Maybe in some cases--maybe to get us to be open enough to hear--but the way it's presented isn't the main reason we can't hear it. The main reason we can't hear it is that it's not the way we think. It's not just a modification of the way we think. It's different. Some of it I'm still trying to wrap my head around because I just don't operate that way at all and have nothing in my experiences to compare to. I may only be able to come up with some rough approximation, just enough so that I can somewhat understand.

    But Pe has been forced to learn this stuff from their end because it's pretty much a Je world. They've been dealing with our basic pov since birth, probably. That's why I keep saying that I'm pretty sure they understand. At least they understand our pov a lot better than we understand theirs.

    ETA: Actually, I've been blown away by the understanding and patience I've been shown throughout the whole process. Really, my own pov was so narrow (and can still use some expanding).
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

Similar Threads

  1. [INFJ] INFJ's - What is your job?
    By ASublett in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 07-14-2013, 06:02 PM
  2. [INFJ] An INFJ not sympathizing...is it normal?
    By Black Hole Sun in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-20-2012, 10:45 PM
  3. [INFJ] INFJ and Love - Is not having it an issue that needs fixing?
    By kccrush in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-08-2010, 07:16 AM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ -Your heart is on your sleeve
    By harmonyizmine in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 01-14-2010, 11:46 PM
  5. [ENTP] Who is the best partner in crime for ENTP women?
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 11-28-2009, 09:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO