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  1. #581
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I half want to say that whether or not an INFJ/ENTP pairing is possible comes down to this^. I thought it was funny, just now, when I read this- my first thought was "That sounds like way too much work"- and I scrolled down to see cafe had that same response. Following the suggestion in the quote is easier said than done, for us. I think I'd probably need to be on 50 mg of Adderal, and also probably jacked up on cocaine, to be able to actually feel like it's a doable suggestion. And the extent to which an ENP believes it truly is difficult/distressing to pummeled with a machine gun splatter of Ne (and is *able* to put a cap on it when it gets distressing, instead of simply trying to get rid of the problem with even more Ne- by 'explaining' why and how it shouldn't be distressing) is probably the extent to which I can see a relationship working. [And yes, I know there's some reciprocate about INJs acknowledging ENP needs- but I'm just saying the above quote somehow, imo, summarizes the difficulty from this end.]

    I WISH it were even remotely easy for me to do what's suggested in the quote.
    Oh, I would never, ever advice such a thing to anyone speaking seriously with an ENTP. Or... well, ANY one if they really do want to understand something. Anything about another.

    I was making a bit of fun about how some people just refuse to listen or be open to another's perspective while claiming they're doing just that.
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  2. #582
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    I was making a bit of fun about how some people just refuse to listen or be open to another's perspective while claiming they're doing just that.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #583
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I half want to say that whether or not an INFJ/ENTP pairing is possible comes down to this^. I thought it was funny, just now, when I read this- my first thought was "That sounds like way too much work"- and I scrolled down to see cafe had that same response. Following the suggestion in the quote is easier said than done, for us. I think I'd probably need to be on 50 mg of Adderal, and also probably jacked up on cocaine, to be able to actually feel like it's a doable suggestion. And the extent to which an ENP believes it truly is difficult/distressing to pummeled with a machine gun splatter of Ne (and is *able* to put a cap on it when it gets distressing, instead of simply trying to get rid of the problem with even more Ne- by 'explaining' why and how it shouldn't be distressing) is probably the extent to which I can see a relationship working. [And yes, I know there's some reciprocate about INJs acknowledging ENP needs- but I'm just saying the above quote somehow, imo, summarizes the difficulty from this end.]

    I WISH it were even remotely easy for me to do what's suggested in the quote.
    ZBee, sryusly, listen to me. Thinking things through is NOT always the best approach to a problem. In fact, thinking heavily can BE THE problem. There are other ways that problems get solved.

    Stopping and considering advice may not be the easiest thing to do. I have not wanted to hear these things. Even if feels are all aligned against No-analysis paralysis, doing so may be a good thing.

    Let me ask you something..What classes in college did you enjoy the most? From which classes have you felt the most accomplishment? From which ones afterward came feelings of the most achievement?

    It was the difficult ones.

    The ones you pushed through when things got difficult and you succeeded despite the struggles. We need to learn, but we need that strengthening that comes from stressing ourselves just enough to grow a little more.

    TL;DR: Sometimes you gotta just say 'fuck it'
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  4. #584
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Okay, yeah, @Eilonwy, I prolly shouldn’t have responded. I’d thought I understood at least that single post I quoted, but I’m just missing too much in not reading surrounding posts. Or something. I was trying to get at something about the exchange between you and March, thinking if I’d read both yours and March’s posts it’d be enough. But we’re just talking past each other here, missing each others points, apparently.


    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Oh, I would never, ever advice such a thing to anyone speaking seriously with an ENTP. Or... well, ANY one if they really do want to understand something. Anything about another.

    I was making a bit of fun about how some people just refuse to listen or be open to another's perspective while claiming they're doing just that.

    I guess the fact that I thought you were even a tiny bit serious (obviously using that exact dialogue seemed a facetious suggestion and wouldn’t work, but I thought maybe it was a suggestion to be more aggressive generally) is maybe testimony to how hard it is to keep up with the word-jockeying. (I dated an ENTP for eight years. And your post.....wasn't too far off as a summary of what it felt like to deal with him a lot of times.)
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 04-03-2014 at 10:29 AM. Reason: grammar
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  5. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is something that has come up again and again and again- pointing out there is another point of view. The reason it’s puzzling to me (that it comes up again and again) is because it seems like a given. It’s obvious that there are other points of view. There are *a lot* of other points of view out there.
    Not following the sub-thread very well, but if I read this *just as a description for discussion among INFJs or people truly seeking to understand us in the context I wrote about earlier,* it resonates a lot with me. Yes, this is a given for me too - obvious to the point of, I don't know, um, extreme obviousness.

    So this thing about there being another point of view….I don’t know, it seems strange to have it repeatedly pointed out because that much seems obvious. It’s about priorities and whether or not someone else’s POV is worth investing my own time and effort into understanding. (I believe, for many of us) It isn’t about 'realizing' there are other points of view out there, that much is obviously true. It’s about figuring out which ones to invest in. Just because other points of view exist doesn’t mean it’s worth investing in them.
    ^ ^ ^ This this THIS! It seems to me that it is precisely because we are so aware of all the POVs around that we need to make these distinctions. Seems to me that this is Ni-dom (fluid shifting of perspective) + Fe-aux (orientation to external-to-us values material which can show up as various POVs).

    I wonder how often it is that people whose POV we decide isn't worth investing in don't want to accept that that is the actual situation, so generalize it into "You need to understand there are other POVs." I mean, I'm thinking it may be harder to accept that I'm extremely aware of many POVs but that I have decided based on what makes sense for me and my energy investment that their specific POV isn't worth the investment of energy and attention. It's not about Truth-Capital-T, its about "your POV is one among so very many, and right now I've decided it's not worth my time/energy/attention to focus deeply from the space of your particular POV." Yeah, I can see how it could be more palatable to make it about "INFJs don't see multiple POVs" than to take in the fact that yeah, we really do know that, we just aren't interested in yours in particular - not because it shines with special truth we can't accept, but because it just doesn't have utility value or a basis of reciprocal respect, or whatever it is that we've found works for us in the ongoing process of useful shifting of perspective as Ni-dom/Fe-aux. The first approach (framing it as about truth and our resistance to same) has some sort of attempted universal authority, the second doesn't give that kind of authority because it's more localized. So I can see the individual feel-good appeal of it. It's just not accurate.

    (and also, how often do we say this kind of thing so bluntly to other people as I am deliberately saying it here?)

  6. #586
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Nothing seems accurate to INFJs consistently. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

    Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  7. #587
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that to an Ne-dom who lives a pattern recognition world, where shifting povs and looking at things from different angles is second nature, you guys look occasionally mind numbingly static and stuck in your Ni vision. I'm not going to deny you see other information, but the way you dismiss it and the things you miss....have a way of making us occasionally wanna ram our head through the wall - that is, when we're not working together as a team. Then Ne-Ni is one *hell* of a combo.
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  8. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Nothing seems accurate to INFJs with consistency. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

    Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.
    And this is IMO a great example of why these threads on this site don't work except to provide material for those who are into the drama and ick that's raised as a result. This is a great example of why it's compelling to me to move more and more toward the perspective about MBTI/cognitive functions I wrote about earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I'm learning a lot on this site about the limitations and problems that can come with certain uses of the MBTI/cognitive process framework. While I don't know where I'll end up and thus reserve the right to disagree with myself later, I'm currently heading toward the perspective that the only contexts in which I see this framework as truly useful are:

    1. As a tool for self-understanding related to information processing
    2. As a tool for mutual understanding in relationships/connections in which there is genuine love and/or care, shared commitment to using the tool only for the goal of mutual understanding to support the health of that connection, and a related complete and utter lack of using the framework as a weapon or other resource for fighting within that process. Also about information processing.

    eta: in case it's not obvious, that second one is not the situation in many of the interactions here

  9. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Keep in mind that to an Ne-dom who lives a pattern recognition world, where shifting povs and looking at things from different angles is second nature, you guys look occasionally mind numbingly static and stuck in your Ni vision. I'm not going to deny you see other information, but the way you dismiss it and the things you miss....have a way of making us occasionally wanna ram our head through the wall - that is, when we're not working together as a team. Then Ne-Ni is one *hell* of a combo.
    But keep in mind that what "shifting POVs" actually are to us as Ni-doms isn't the same as what it is for you as a Ne-dom. Not the same at all. Here's a description from the recently posted type descriptions on this site:

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    As an introverted perception function, dominant Ni is not making any kind of value judgments. It's only taking in impressions--as many different possible interpretations of the significance of any given idea or event as possible. That may sound similar to Ne on the surface, but it's not--Ne is picking up a lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them; Ni is picking one idea or event at a time and examining ("from a clean slate", as Yukawa says) every angle of every component of that one thing in order to find any as-of-yet untried interpretations that might cause us to view the whole issue in an entirely new light.

    While Ne explodes into a million new places from one starting point, Ni is much more comfortable "imploding" into an overarching interpretation that combines many different disparate elements into one more cohesive whole. Often this results in the keen ability to pare down many different apparently disparate options into the best and most effective option for the singular vision that the INFJ's judgment functions have decided is the best use of time.
    Does that clarify what I mean at all?

    And again, for the larger discussion more than specifically or only in response to you, Amargith, I want to be very clear that my friendship with my actual ENTP friend doesn't run into all this drama-of-conflict-and-misunderstanding generated in this thread on this site, despite Ni-dom versus Ne-dom differences. We are whole people to each other in a way that doesn't seem to happen much here on this site in threads like this, and what I mean by that is that we see each other as people first, type second, and the type talk is about good faith understanding in a context of existing good will. etc.
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 04-03-2014 at 02:31 AM. Reason: edited quote for relevance

  10. #590
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    Nothing seems accurate to INFJs consistently. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

    Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.
    I kind of see POVs the same way I see belief in God: you can't really know which is the right one, so you just pick the one you like best and go with it. That's oversimplified, of course, but not by a lot.

    I can see the POVs. I try to see as many as possible, but you can't act upon all of them. You simply can't. So you grab a few that you like and/or that work and proceed accordingly. Usually I prioritize the POVs that help me take care of my responsibilities and maintain my sanity. Stuff that interferes with that kinda gets thrown out the car window and I don't do a lot of looking back.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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