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  1. #571
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    oh for fuck sake, that's not advice about how to behave with ENTPs that's a description of how most INxJs already do...

    ...and i'm pretty sure @digesthisickness was being sarcastic....

  2. #572
    Member March's Avatar
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    Ah, my apologies @Eilonwy, you did indeed not say 'useless semantics.' I quoted from memory and got it wrong.

    I still think 'unimportant details', or rather 'avoiding the message' is pretty ouchy, since I'm feeling more and more confused in this conversation and am actively searching for something to grab onto. Without a big picture overview I can't even distinguish between the details and the main thrust. Now if you mean 'Discover and clarify is turning into you missing the point by a nautical mile because you get distracted by semantics and unimportant details' I'm with you 1000%. Or is that semantics?

    @Mane, great metaphor with the elephant.

    'Cause if we see catastrophic INFJ/ENTP fights as the sick elephant in the room, and even if we both commit to discussing and healing the entire elephant, it still makes sense to thoroughly signpost which bits you're discussing. (Or to get into the same room & use our pointy fingers. Fancy a trip to the Netherlands? Weather's fiiine right now.) If I tell you 'the problem is the sensitivity of the elephant's skin!' and I don't specify, how do you know if I'm talking about the natural extreme sensitivity of the trunk's prehensile fingers, the natural extreme insensitivity of the sole of the foot, the unnatural extreme sensitivity of the scrape on the ass, or the idiosyncratic sensitivity of this particular elephant who's allergic to being tickled behind the ears? If you tell me 'just stick that needle into the big vein, he won't mind' I might get stepped on if I surmise the big vein in the tail and you mean the big vein in the ear.

    I was trying to address the different focuses and things I don't get in different paragraphs, and you only reply to about 10% of what I say. Now I can respect that because my posts are very long and the other extreme - replying to every single sentence - is extremely tedious for both reader and poster, but me picking a focus or asking a question hasn't proven productive.

    Without wanting to tu quoque you, can you bend your perspective around to see how you could be confusing me? (And if so, are you invested enough in this conversation to help me out a little by being clear about which perspective you're taking during the different bits of your posts or shall we leave it at this?)

  3. #573
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Ah, my apologies Eilonwy, you did indeed not say 'useless semantics.' I quoted from memory and got it wrong.
    I've been through this before, so I know how mentally taxing it can be. So, I apologize for continuing to push the point. My post wasn't about pointing out that you misquoted me. I was trying to get you to think about the thought processes that went into your interpretation of my quote. Could there be something about INFJ thought processes, that combo of NiFeTiSe, that might lead to a consistent pattern of responses that INFJs are unaware of?


    ETA: I'm trying to narrow this down for you. Forget about all the other stuff I've said and start from here. And take your time. Don't feel you have to deal with this right now.

    ETA2: Sorry. There's also the choice to not deal with it at all. Which is also okay.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #574
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I was trying to get you to think about the thought processes that went into your interpretation of my quote.
    How many woman do you get to bow to your will with this hidden dominance ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Without wanting to tu quoque you, can you bend your perspective around to see how you could be confusing me? (And if so, are you invested enough in this conversation to help me out a little by being clear about which perspective you're taking during the different bits of your posts or shall we leave it at this?)
    i think i can do the balded.

    but there are several possibilities - i can't know where you got confused and about what without some indication.

  6. #576
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    How many woman do you get to bow to your will with this hidden dominance ?
    Fixed that.

    And, I wish.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #577
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Fixed that.

    And, I wish.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #578
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Fixed that.

    And, I wish.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #579
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    oh for fuck sake, that's not advice about how to behave with ENTPs ...and i'm pretty sure @digesthisickness was being sarcastic....
    Absolutely. Doing this with an ENTP would not end well, I imagine. It IS precisely how communication works if problems being solved, or at least compromises being made, is NOT the goal.
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  10. #580
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I know I haven't been successful, so far, explaining what you're missing, but I'll try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is something that has come up again and again and again- pointing out there is another point of view. The reason it’s puzzling to me (that it comes up again and again) is because it seems like a given. It’s obvious that there are other points of view. There are *a lot* of other points of view out there.
    It's not about knowing that there are other points of view, it's about being able to see what your behavior looks like from another point of view. To see yourself from another point of view.

    And I think this (new) tangent about feeling understood is an important part of whether or not *I* give someone else’s point of view much weight. It really doesn’t have as much to do with ‘whether the information is flattering’ as some people/the other thread kept suggesting, it has to do with a mutual respect and ability to empathize: where I sense respect and the ability to empathize in reciprocated proportion isn’t present (for balanced dynamics), I don’t think it’s healthy or productive to continue pouring much of my time/energy into trying to understand their point of view.
    I disagree that it isn't at least productive to understand another's pov. I can't really say if it's unhealthy or not, but, so far, for me, it hasn't been. And I'm not talking about having to understand each individual's pov--understanding, in general, from this forum, has helped me with relationships irl. But where you put your energy is your choice.

    This isn't about only excepting/listening to complaints issued in socially acceptable formats, this is about actual mutual respect- why should I continue interaction where someone is demanding respect without feeling any obligation to return that respect or reciprocate concern? [Even if someone insists they are returning respect- one key question is, do they care if I don't feel heard? Because if someone doesn't care that I don't feel heard- while they're simultaneously arguing that they DO respect my POV, and maybe they try arguing that I SHOULD feel heard because they DO respect my POV (therefore, there's something wrong with my feelings if I feel like they don't respect my POV...)- that's really not the same as actually having respect for my POV.]
    What if they don't feel heard by you? Are you okay with them treating you the way that you would treat them? What if you were really trying to hear them, but they didn't feel it? If you're okay with this scenario, then, imo, that's fine. That's your choice.

    So this thing about there being another point of view….I don’t know, it seems strange to have it repeatedly pointed out because that much seems obvious. It’s about priorities and whether or not someone else’s POV is worth investing my own time and effort into understanding. (I believe, for many of us) It isn’t about 'realizing' there are other points of view out there, that much is obviously true. It’s about figuring out which ones to invest in. Just because other points of view exist doesn’t mean it’s worth investing in them.
    I think that the time and energy I invested in trying to understand just ONE other pov, learning to see myself and my behavior from that pov, has provided enough information that I can start to apply what I learned to other povs. Yeah, they're all different, but now I have knowledge to work with that I didn't have before. And it's knowledge that has benefited me in a lot of ways. So, I'm not exactly being a selfless martyr by putting out the effort.

    When I have respect for someone’s judgment and/or find exchanges rewarding enough to keep interacting with them, I generally do whatever I can think of to make the person feel heard/understood. To me, it’s a way of showing them that I respect them and that I care about how interacting with me effects them. So where I don’t feel heard, and where it seems like the other person doesn’t especially care whether I feel heard- I generally end up mirroring that (lack of) effort. Where someone isn’t especially important to me, why should I bother? I can see the occasional outpouring of compassion for someone who doesn't have it in them to return concern while they're down- but this shouldn't apply to an overall relationship to someone, as soon as that imbalance is spotted as being a regular part of a relationship.....it's time to either make it clear or to move on. Why should anyone expect to be important to me if they aren’t willing to care about whether or not I feel heard? It’s not doing myself or that other person, really (because it’s enabling them), any favors in continuing such unbalanced interaction.
    I don't plan on marrying anyone from this forum, so I don't see it as quite the investment that you do, I guess. Plus, I've had bosses in the past that I didn't get along with, but that I had to work with. I think the knowledge I've gained will help me in those types of relationships as well as personal relationships.

    [In B 4 argument that INFJs only ‘feel heard’ or ‘feel respected’ if you have flattering opinion of them…] And if someone is dealing with the kind of INFJ who backs away and doesn’t feel heard simply because you won’t harbor a delusional/flattering opinion of them, then why complain about them backing away? Who needs friends/significant others like that? I’d consider it a GOOD thing to have someone like that back away.
    That might be true for relationships that aren't well established--if the backing away happens early on and there hasn't been much of an emotional investment made. But most people aren't going to know about typology and aren't going to recognize what's happening until long after they've invested themselves in the relationship. How good is it then? What about when there are children to consider? Big financial issues to consider? What about the emotional investment the other person has made?

    Also, I don’t think Je thinks in terms of ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, I think it’s more like ‘productive’ and ‘unproductive’. At any rate, any ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ label Je slaps on something isn’t really personal- it’s just about making navigation of the external world run smoothly, the more personal and deeply subjective evaluations are Ji territory.
    From your pov. But not from everyone's pov.

    Even if you take out the whole "looking at it from another pov", there's still a lot to be gained from figuring out INFJ thought processes. Some of this stuff has to be controllable, or at least manageable. If I can find ways to better process all the emotional stuff that I deal with, then I'll be a happier camper and I'm sure anyone who has to deal with me will be a happier camper, too. I see so many benefits from delving into this.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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