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  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Then I've lost you again. Initially, you said your reason for needing people to be able to see themselves as the villains in a story was to make them realize what they're doing, stop doing it, and not do it again. That's 'manipulating people to act more trustworthy', right? (Edited) So is that no longer the goal? Regardless of what you think is the most effective way to reach that goal?
    it is in the larger sense that that's what i have to take form the conversation at it's end of the day - yes.
    but in terms of answering your own question of what would be required of INFJs to be trustworthy - no.

    but isn't that sort of obvious?
    • i'd be leaving to interact with population who's occasional INFJs haven't read this thread.
    • alternatively: i'd come out of it having a better understanding of what is it that INFJs dont know which prevents them from setisfying rudimentary expectations of human trust.
    • you'd be leaving to interact with people who's interaction of INFJs aren't informed by it....
    • alternatively: and you can come out of it with a better understandings of how is it you think people should treat INFJs in conflicts and whats a cruel world t is that they don't.


    it seems clear that the option where we each get the means that can influence our own behaviors.... at the very least it seems to result in slightly less annoying people.


    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    My example specifically referenced Jean stealing BREAD. He stole bread because he was hungry, then society cracked down on him and made sure he took on the villain role, and then he BECAME the villain, stealing silverware which isn't that good for your digestive system nor a great way to get stuff that IS good for the digestive system, so is not covered by the 'intent' clause. My point was that being reasonable in allowing Jean to make amends for the bread (of course still a tangible loss to the baker, but not comparable to silverware) would have allowed him to stay part of society. In which case the silverware would never have been stolen. None of which is trying to pretend that he didn't either steal the bread OR the silverware. (Except of course he didn't, 'cause he's fictional. But real-life equivalents exist.)

    I blame tl;dr syndrome.
    actually i blame the years since i've seen it: i really don't remember him stealing bread before stealing the silverware - i'll take your word for it - but either way i don't see much of a difference between him stealing bread and him stealing silverware to sell for bread (as far as i noticed it wasn't trying to make a point about the dangers of an accessible black markets). that's being said:

    there is the question of responsibility, and there's the question of how to discourage people from repeating the behaviors:
    understanding what is, and understanding and what is useful to express.
    your point seems to be an attempts to dismiss the first by saying it doesn't fit the 2nd.

    which fits the general pattern:
    "it wasn't really [insert transgression], i was just [insert motivation for wanting something which results in the transgression]!"
    essentially as you say - the intent clause.

    not to over extent the metaphor, i have had conversations that have suggested that to some extent INFJs view their decisions and motivations to be no different from a starving man's hunger - essentially that whatever it is they ended up doing was so clear to them as the only thing they could do - that they had to do - that if there was something wrong in what they did it means there is something wrong with who they are. i haven't gone so far as testing this though.

  2. #562
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    The vast majority of the time I have seen an ENTP on typology forums go out of their way to profess their love of INFJ's or how they are in some ways better than all others types and want ones themselves... ultimately just want one as a pet to have their way with.

    It both makes me laugh and and go "oh good lord...".
    +1
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    If I don't know someone (and assuming you're not actually Peter Dinklage, @Mane, I wouldn't know the first thing about you - if you ARE, then Hi! Big fan of your work! Still don't know anything about you as a person) then intellectual understanding coupled with a general sense of wishing well is all I have to go by.
    I'm not closely following this part of the discussion, and I don't get the specifics of this reference in relation to the actual exchange, but even so ... that bolded statement is probably the most amusing thing I have seen on this site. (I like his work too, but didn't know his name and had to do a search.)


    Trying for something substantive:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    The vast majority of the time I have seen an ENTP on typology forums go out of their way to profess their love of INFJ's or how they are in some ways better than all others types and want ones themselves... ultimately just want one as a pet to have their way with.

    It both makes me laugh and and go "oh good lord...".
    I think this may be part of a broader phenomenon of exotification, and I myself would guess that it's not only ENTPs. Whatever the case, though, yeah it's not a compliment. From what I've seen, INFJs (and other groups subject to this pattern, it's not just us by any means) can get exotified or devalued/demonized/whatever the word is. Both sides of the spectrum (exotifying/demonizing) make objects of the people under discussion. Very different from relating to actual human beings as such.

  4. #564
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I always picture Mane as Peter Dinklage, too. And it works the other way- we just started watching Game of Thrones and I can't help but think of Mane when Tyrion Lannister is on screen. It doesn't help that they seem to share a withering, blistering sense of humor.

  5. #565
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    but isn't that sort of obvious?
    @Mane, I hate to break it to you but nothing in talking to you is obvious to me.

    I don't even know what the green and yellow coding in your post is supposed to mean.

    The green stuff sounds like the logical entailments of us talking on this thread but not living our entire lives on it - yes, both of us are going to talk to people of all MBTI types who haven't read this thread. What are you trying to say here?

    The first 'alternatively' sounds like a good thing, apart from 'something prevents INFJs from satisfying rudimentary expectations of human trust' - now YOU're being a jerk. More understanding = yay?

    The second 'alternatively' sounds like it's made up out of whole cloth. Where have I ever told anyone that there's a certain way 'people should treat INFJs in conflicts' or lamented about how cruel it is that they don't? People can treat INFJs any damn way they like, inside or outside of conflict situations. I couldn't care less.

    (That's one thing where what you say is never obvious to me - I can't see the difference between the things you mean and the things you don't. I can 't keep up with when you're talking to me
    • person to person trying to solve an interesting philosophical conundrum and maybe reduce the total amount of pain in the world,
    • as ENTP to INFJ neutrally about type differences,
    • as ENTP victim of ME as INFJ jerk,
    • as ENTP victim of another INFJ jerk, who would like a different INFJ to model better problem-solving ways to regain hope in the species
    • as ENTP who wants to learn,
    • to get a rise out of me
    • as ENTP who wants to teach,
    • as someone from a class you despise


    ... I can do ALL those conversations, but not all at once. Ne has me beat there. And I'm this close to giving up, which may be doing the both of us a favor before I become one of your INFJ statistics.)

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I don't even know what the green and yellow coding in your post is supposed to mean.
    in the green options we each walk away from the conversation knowing something useful ourselves,
    in the orange one we both walk away from it feeling self righteous and condensing about what others' should know.

    as far as your list, other then perhaps #1 & #3, none of the above particularly contradict...
    you want to just arbitrarily choose a single goal oriented perspective from which to see this?
    stop talking about an elephant and randomly pick between the trunk the pillars the ears or the ass?

    if you need a more specific focus, pick one.
    if you need clarifications, feel free to ask.
    if you need to take a step back, that's fine too.

    other then that i am not sure what i could offer.

  7. #567
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Perhaps it would be helpful for Je which is predisposed to think in terms of "wrong" and "right", to try to NOT think in terms of wrong or right. It's not about INFJs being wrong and ENTPs being right. Or vice versa. Wrong or right is not the point. It all just IS. It's also not about blame and who should bear blame. It's just about seeing from another pov. Without all the judgement. Seeing that there IS another point of view.
    This is something that has come up again and again and again- pointing out there is another point of view. The reason it’s puzzling to me (that it comes up again and again) is because it seems like a given. It’s obvious that there are other points of view. There are *a lot* of other points of view out there. And I think this (new) tangent about feeling understood is an important part of whether or not *I* give someone else’s point of view much weight. It really doesn’t have as much to do with ‘whether the information is flattering’ as some people/the other thread kept suggesting, it has to do with a mutual respect and ability to empathize: where I sense respect and the ability to empathize in reciprocated proportion isn’t present (for balanced dynamics), I don’t think it’s healthy or productive to continue pouring much of my time/energy into trying to understand their point of view. This isn't about only excepting/listening to complaints issued in socially acceptable formats, this is about actual mutual respect- why should I continue interaction where someone is demanding respect without feeling any obligation to return that respect or reciprocate concern? [Even if someone insists they are returning respect- one key question is, do they care if I don't feel heard? Because if someone doesn't care that I don't feel heard- while they're simultaneously arguing that they DO respect my POV, and maybe they try arguing that I SHOULD feel heard because they DO respect my POV (therefore, there's something wrong with my feelings if I feel like they don't respect my POV...)- that's really not the same as actually having respect for my POV.]

    So this thing about there being another point of view….I don’t know, it seems strange to have it repeatedly pointed out because that much seems obvious. It’s about priorities and whether or not someone else’s POV is worth investing my own time and effort into understanding. (I believe, for many of us) It isn’t about 'realizing' there are other points of view out there, that much is obviously true. It’s about figuring out which ones to invest in. Just because other points of view exist doesn’t mean it’s worth investing in them.

    When I have respect for someone’s judgment and/or find exchanges rewarding enough to keep interacting with them, I generally do whatever I can think of to make the person feel heard/understood. To me, it’s a way of showing them that I respect them and that I care about how interacting with me effects them. So where I don’t feel heard, and where it seems like the other person doesn’t especially care whether I feel heard- I generally end up mirroring that (lack of) effort. Where someone isn’t especially important to me, why should I bother? I can see the occasional outpouring of compassion for someone who doesn't have it in them to return concern while they're down- but this shouldn't apply to an overall relationship to someone, as soon as that imbalance is spotted as being a regular part of a relationship.....it's time to either make it clear or to move on. Why should anyone expect to be important to me if they aren’t willing to care about whether or not I feel heard? It’s not doing myself or that other person, really (because it’s enabling them), any favors in continuing such unbalanced interaction.

    [In B 4 argument that INFJs only ‘feel heard’ or ‘feel respected’ if you have flattering opinion of them…] And if someone is dealing with the kind of INFJ who backs away and doesn’t feel heard simply because you won’t harbor a delusional/flattering opinion of them, then why complain about them backing away? Who needs friends/significant others like that? I’d consider it a GOOD thing to have someone like that back away.

    Also, I don’t think Je thinks in terms of ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, I think it’s more like ‘productive’ and ‘unproductive’. At any rate, any ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ label Je slaps on something isn’t really personal- it’s just about making navigation of the external world run smoothly, the more personal and deeply subjective evaluations are Ji territory.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #568
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    That may seem like 'useless semantics' (ouch) to you, but it's my LIFE. It's my BRAIN. If I don't know someone (and assuming you're not actually Peter Dinklage, Mane, I wouldn't know the first thing about you - if you ARE, then Hi! Big fan of your work! Still don't know anything about you as a person) then intellectual understanding coupled with a general sense of wishing well is all I have to go by. Sure, it's not a failproof instrument and in this case it probably generates failure. But it's still all I've got to try with.
    Here's my actual quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    But discover and clarify is turning into an avoidance of the message by becoming about semantics and unimportant details.
    I didn't say "useless semantics".

    Okay. Take a deep breath. Go back and look at what just happened. Do you see what happened? You added "useless". You took a fairly neutral statement from me, added a bit of emotion and a little bit of extreme negative thinking, interpreted it as an "ouch" moment, and then proceeded to defend yourself against my perceived attack. Please, don't feel bad about that. I do it all the time myself. I STILL do it all the time myself. Sometimes I catch myself. Sometimes I don't.

    This is part of what I'm trying to point out. Forget about understanding Mane. Forget about understanding the ENTP pov. Be more aware of how your own function-driven thought processes can fool you into thinking that you're interpreting things realistically and correctly when you might not be. Do you see that, or am I still not making sense?

    ETA: Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to evoke any emotion from you. I'm not trying to make you FEEL stupid or bad or confused or whatever. Try to strip the emotion out of the equation. It's not easy, but it's doable.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #569
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Or just answer everything with, "WRONG!" with a dollop of "Why?" every now and then to make it look like you care, and to also cause them to say something to which you can then reply, "WRONG!"
    I half want to say that whether or not an INFJ/ENTP pairing is possible comes down to this^. I thought it was funny, just now, when I read this- my first thought was "That sounds like way too much work"- and I scrolled down to see cafe had that same response. Following the suggestion in the quote is easier said than done, for us. I think I'd probably need to be on 50 mg of Adderal, and also probably jacked up on cocaine, to be able to actually feel like it's a doable suggestion. And the extent to which an ENP believes it truly is difficult/distressing to pummeled with a machine gun splatter of Ne (and is *able* to put a cap on it when it gets distressing, instead of simply trying to get rid of the problem with even more Ne- by 'explaining' why and how it shouldn't be distressing) is probably the extent to which I can see a relationship working. [And yes, I know there's some reciprocate about INJs acknowledging ENP needs- but I'm just saying the above quote somehow, imo, summarizes the difficulty from this end.]

    I WISH it were even remotely easy for me to do what's suggested in the quote.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  10. #570
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Default At last

    After much thoughtfulness and deliberation, I personally and strongly believe, to have finally reached an accurate summary to the OP and all parties involved in the discussion throughout the thread.



    ...wait for it...






    ...here it is:

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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