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  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    arguments require common ground, a sense of trust. if you make arguments in a way that erode trust
    well if it's my trust your trying to appeal too then there's nothing to erode.

    if - which i find more likely - you are trying to claim that i do, then the answer is absolutely yes. from the perspective of INFJs anyway - with both the ones that trust me and the one's that don't, it is largely being consistent that they associate trust not only with trusting someone to be reliable or honest, but rather trust that you'd think the best of them and not judge them negatively, or better said, they need to trust you to judge them the way they judge themselves, a desire which you expressed yourself (to determine your role in your own terms). since my general stance is that many seem to be incapable of judging themselves from the point of view of others, my perspective is inherently untrustworthy - not only i am threatening you with the suggestions of point of view judging you in a way that is inconsistent with how you judge yourself, but i am also arguing they are probably more valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's more like a paradigm, but the activity isn't science. it's living, which is about loving at least as much as it is about codifying the laws of knowledge. if you call loving "lying,"
    in rejecting from your universe all but yourself, who is it that you are meant to love? anywyay, while you are at it, let's push it up a notch:


    1. take out a weapon
    2. show it off to people
    3. address those you find sexually attractive
    3. talk about possible negative out comes
    4. strongly express your desire
    5. title the above love.

    now let's see if anyone dares to call the act of love by any other name.


    and just to be clear: while satiric, it carries your exact pattern, whether your aware of it or not, the vast majority of your posts take very simple concepts and break them down to avoid common sense implications. if i'd met you years back i might have even being engaged by it, now i see through it: ofcourse it isn't love - neither this nor your description above - if the act of love was rejecting everything that doesn't fit your little emotional paradigm, the only remaining subject for you to love would be yourself - but then again since you aren't really acknowledging yourself beyond what fits your paradigm, it doesn't get to even be that. the act of sharing that paradigm isn't love, its marketing at the best of times and outright deception at most. you want to claim its the basis for honest relationships but in demanding that they'll love your novel character of yourself you aren't even giving them the opportunity to love whoever the f' you might actually be.

  2. #552
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I haven't done my research, but based on what I've said about the function types and order in the ENTP/INFJ dynamic, it looks like the ENFP/INTJ dynamic is much the same but with Fi/Te instead of Ti/Fe: attraction through novelty and play, judging functions making it seem that there is a similar pov, which is misleading because of the totally different thought processes. All guesses.
    Interesting theory.
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  3. #553
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    well if it's my trust your trying to appeal too then there's nothing to erode.

    if - which i find more likely - you are trying to claim that i do, then the answer is absolutely yes. from the perspective of INFJs anyway - with both the ones that trust me and the one's that don't, it is largely being consistent that they associate trust not only with trusting someone to be reliable or honest, but rather trust that you'd think the best of them and not judge them negatively, or better said, they need to trust you to judge them the way they judge themselves, a desire which you expressed yourself (to determine your role in your own terms). since my general stance is that many seem to be incapable of judging themselves from the point of view of others, my perspective is inherently untrustworthy - i am threatening you with the suggestions of point of view judging you in a way that is inconsistent with how you judge yourself, but i am also arguing they are probably more valid.
    haha, they can be "probably more valid" according to you if you want them to be. that's your business.

    once again, you're using language that keeps saying judgment, judgment, judgment. we don't need positive judgment. we need compassion. that's a real need that many of us have and base our entire lives around giving and receiving. it's the way we fully feel like ourselves. it supports us to be and do the best we can, not just for ourselves but for others. it is our deepest source of fulfillment. sharing is more significant than judgment. it's more whole.



    in rejecting from your universe all but yourself, who is it that you are meant to love
    i'm sorry if you feel rejected, and that's on its own terms, and i don't know what else to say to that. in terms of what you're saying, i don't believe this true. i am not a particularly social person, so my sense of social space is less broad than many others. but there are many people who are deeply part of my reality, as i am with theirs. i do have an intense desire to blend and merge them. mine does not feel static, and it connects through even if is not reducible to consensual social reality. i'm okay with all of this, even the headaches and miscommunications and feeling like i'm going backwards with respect to other people's expectations sometimes. i do want people to communicate with me (and establish a record of doing so) in an adult-like way. especially adults. otherwise, i need to assess my responsibilities and decide how much i am truly able and willing to give.


    1. take out a weapon
    2. show it off to people
    3. address those you find sexually attractive
    3. talk about possible negative out comes
    4. strongly express your desire
    5. title the above love.

    now let's see if anyone dares to call the act of love by any other name.
    i appreciate the shock value, but i don't exactly see what you're trying to illustrate. it appears you feel threatened by something i am doing and feel forced into giving something simply because i want it? or are you saying that this is a template for my relationships with other people that has nothing to do with what you're personally experiencing right now and is instead a "likely" pattern for how all my real world relationships unfold?


    and just to be clear: while satiric, it carries your exact pattern, whether your aware of it or not, the vast majority of your posts take very simple concepts and break them down to avoid common sense implications. if i'd met you years back i might have even being engaged by it, now i see through it: ofcourse it isn't love - neither this nor your description above - if the act of love was rejecting everything that doesn't fit your little emotional paradigm, the only remaining subject for you to love would be yourself - but then again since you aren't really acknowledging yourself beyond what fits your paradigm, it doesn't get to even be that. the act of sharing that paradigm isn't love, its marketing at the best of times and outright deception at most. you want to claim its the basis for honest relationships but in demanding that they'll love your novel character of yourself you aren't even giving them the opportunity to love whoever the f' you might actually be.
    i do the bold quite often. i think this is actually kind of a type thing (Ni). i don't know if this is an "exact pattern," but it's definitely a big part of how i work through an idea or develop understanding. i don't know if what you're saying is that only "common sense implications" are real or worthy of consideration. i feel a judgmental tone, but i don't really see your point or your needs, so it's difficult to really do anything with this.

    it's okay with me if you disagree with how i see love. like i said before, it feels like a kind of grace to me. i think the power to accept yourself as you really are is one of its most precious benefits. i don't feel like your story of me has anything to do with the reality of me, but i realize that we don't know each other very well. i think our ability to be open and create space for each other's reality, not a complete one but an independence from ours, is a hallmark of love. but i don't think fixating on a need to keep every possibility open to the point that it takes away our ability to feel ourselves as we really are, is a good thing (if by good we mean supports and promotes love rather than diminishes it).

    "when the past is present"

  4. #554
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I do not understand these flare-ups. Seems like much ado about, if not nothing, very little.

    PS: This is solely my own opinion and does not represent any official policy of TypoC as a whole, &c &c, in perpetuity throughout the universe or whatever.

  5. #555
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    I don't understand either, @Ivy. But that's because I can't keep the sides straight with half of them not posting their type.
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  6. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i don't feel like your story of me has anything to do with the reality of me, but i realize that we don't know each other very well.
    and funny story: you wont.

    your conception of "the truth" requires:
    - that it makes you feel good.
    - to be maintained without testing
    - to only be examined on your own terms
    essentially: accepting who you really are just happens to have the same mature adult requirements as accepting santa claus.

    and guess what? when anyone of the people you claim to care about experiences something negative about you, its not going to feel good - it's not going to fit with an idea of "the truth" built around what feels good. and being open to whether their point of view subjected to the experience has a merit? that's taking the risk of testing the truth, and worst - testing it in the terms of another. the result is that your values aren't valid predictions on whether others will experience you breaking them, they merely predict that you wont be able to mentally account for others when they do.


    your story isn't accountable to who you are for anyone else, and that's why trusting you with the well being of another is.. batshit crazy.

  7. #557
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy
    Respectfully, I'm pretty sure that you have been understood. Can you stop your automatic thought processes, strip out any emotions or judgements that you attach to Mane's posts, stop taking the posts personally, and see if you can understand in return?
    I'm not so sure, unfortunately. For person A to be understood, person A needs to feel understood and person B needs to have the rough idea that they get what A's about. For mutual understanding, the same needs to happen the other way around.

    I think at most one of those four criteria is satisfied - perhaps @Mane gets what I'm saying but I'm sure I still don't get him. And I doubt either of us feels confident in saying 'Yup, March/Mane really gets me! I'd let him/her explain a situation from my POV any time 'cause I'm sure they'll do my case justice.'

    Maybe what I'm trying to get him to understand is what I need from him to be able to understand. (Edited to add: Which of course doesn't oblige anyone to give me anything.)

    That may seem like 'useless semantics' (ouch) to you, but it's my LIFE. It's my BRAIN. If I don't know someone (and assuming you're not actually Peter Dinklage, @Mane, I wouldn't know the first thing about you - if you ARE, then Hi! Big fan of your work! Still don't know anything about you as a person) then intellectual understanding coupled with a general sense of wishing well is all I have to go by. Sure, it's not a failproof instrument and in this case it probably generates failure. But it's still all I've got to try with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    if the goal is to manipulate people to act more trustworthy, you might be right - i am not entirely sure on that front.
    Then I've lost you again. Initially, you said your reason for needing people to be able to see themselves as the villains in a story was to make them realize what they're doing, stop doing it, and not do it again. That's 'manipulating people to act more trustworthy', right? (Edited) So is that no longer the goal? Regardless of what you think is the most effective way to reach that goal?

    And here's why I'm not sure you get MY POV either:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    valjean desire and need for food do not change the fact another human being has their silverware stolen
    My example specifically referenced Jean stealing BREAD. He stole bread because he was hungry, then society cracked down on him and made sure he took on the villain role, and then he BECAME the villain, stealing silverware which isn't that good for your digestive system nor a great way to get stuff that IS good for the digestive system, so is not covered by the 'intent' clause. My point was that being reasonable in allowing Jean to make amends for the bread (of course still a tangible loss to the baker, but not comparable to silverware) would have allowed him to stay part of society. In which case the silverware would never have been stolen. None of which is trying to pretend that he didn't either steal the bread OR the silverware. (Except of course he didn't, 'cause he's fictional. But real-life equivalents exist.)

    I blame tl;dr syndrome.

  8. #558
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    The vast majority of the time I have seen an ENTP on typology forums go out of their way to profess their love of INFJ's or how they are in some ways better than all others types and want ones themselves... ultimately just want one as a pet to have their way with.

    It both makes me laugh and and go "oh good lord...".
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  9. #559
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    For person A to be understood, person A needs to feel understood and person B needs to have the rough idea that they get what A's about. For mutual understanding, the same needs to happen the other way around.
    I need to spend more time with your whole post, but, quickly, the bolded strikes me as a big part of our problem. In a recent experience I had, after, hopefully, apologizing for my behavior (not quite sure some of those coping strategies didn't rear their ugly heads), the urge to explain myself and make sure I felt understood was really strong. But, really, being understood in that way doesn't matter to that particular situation. I impact people all the time, whether they are close to me or not. I can't expect every stranger I run across to understand me to the point that I feel understood. That's unrealistic. And yet, I will have impact on those people. Some of it may be negative. So, do they have no right to inform me of my negative impact on them, does their negative experience of me have absolutely no meaning, just because I don't feel understood? Isn't that a bit crazy?

    ETA: For the record, I had the urge to explain, even though the person I apologized to did understand me and was absolutely correct in their assessment of my negative, hurtful behavior. And the crazy part is that I know all the stuff I just said about being unrealistic, but still the urge was there. So, once again, what I say and what I demonstrate don't match.

    ETA2: And because I'm pretty sure that we're going to end up going there--this doesn't mean that one should NEVER, EVER, EVER try to explain their actions or need to feel understood. We need to try to stop automatically going to the extreme ends of things and settle somewhere in the middle in order to have a productive conversation.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #560
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Perhaps it would be helpful for Je which is predisposed to think in terms of "wrong" and "right", to try to NOT think in terms of wrong or right. It's not about INFJs being wrong and ENTPs being right. Or vice versa. Wrong or right is not the point. It all just IS. It's also not about blame and who should bear blame. It's just about seeing from another pov. Without all the judgement. Seeing that there IS another point of view.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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