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  1. #541
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    That the OP is misguidedly optimistic (my "nice" way of saying wrong)? Unless the dynamic of ENTPs and INFJs going around and around is considered "best" by both types.

    Now stop quoting yourself...and stating the obvious. People will start to wonder.
    ...my type?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #542
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Welp. At least INTJ-ENFP threads aren't the only catastrophic cluster fuck around here, despite being considered 'ideal' in theory.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #543
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Welp. At least INTJ-ENFP threads aren't the only catastrophic cluster fuck around here, despite being considered 'ideal' in theory.
    I really do think it's not type-related, but rather something about the dynamics of this site under certain circumstances (per the comment I just posted). We've discussed other manifestations of this pattern in another context/with different specifics, I think.

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    I do. I'd trust the person who said "I fucked up and stole" (thereby confessing that they DID something) much more than the person who said "I wanted it so I stole it" (thereby confessing how much the action suits their personality - making it a characteristic rather than an action).

    So that seems like the opposite from what you're advocating. I can't imagine how telling the person saying "I fucked up and stole" to take that on as a 'characteristic' would help to make them more
    if the goal is to manipulate people to act more trustworthy, you might be right - i am not entirely sure on that front.

    but in terms of determining which one is more trustworthy - person B doesn't have the value for you to trust in, person C's judgement of whether they enact their value does not include your experience of another person acting in accordance to the value, but person A is able to stop and ask "i am being a jerk... i should stop". in order for them to be able to do so, it is absolutely a necessity that they'd be able to say "i am being a jerk".

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Your 'more relevant' case is nothing but a straw man, and a flimsy one at that. There's no such thing as "My intent was not for you not to have it but for me to have it" if it's about physical goods - every two-year-old knows that taking something from you means you no longer have it. Anyone who'd say "it didn't count because my intent was not for you to not have it by for me to have it so it's not real stealing" needs to get their head checked.
    far from a strawman - while physical goods serve to demonstrate the cause of affect maintained regardless of intent in a more concrete fashion- valjean desire and need for food do not change the fact another human being has their silverware stolen and valjean was the cause - they are in no way a requirement. when a solipsistic causes harm to another, the general behavior seems to be to attempt to refute the claim by proposing a contradicting narrative disowning the affect by sticking to the intent.

    "i wasn't stealing, i was just hungry"

  5. #545
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, the unintended consequences of me trying to better understand publicly, as opposed to just staying in my blog, is that it's once again become an INFJs attacking Mane free-for-all. I'm just as big a disappointment in that I might be more aware of my own thought processes and more aware of how that impacts others, but I haven't been able to change them to any great degree, so what I say and what I demonstrate still don't match and I still end up hurting people who have been nothing but kind to me. This was the cost for posting that I was talking about. Flak and fallout. No direct consequence to me, but consequences to anyone else who has spoken out. It's most likely unintentional and unconscious, but it's a good way to shut down any dissenting voices. It's why so many who disagree with the most vocal INFJs give up and shut up.

    I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet--give up like the rest, or continue and deal with the fact that by doing so I get by without consequence while others don't.
    FWIW, I first came into contact with MBTI circa2000's. I wasn't immediately active after joining the forum until after some months. When I did, I started some threads about topics on interest I'd been delving on, following both my willingness to share and subjective reasoning it'd be welcome in a community about personal insight & development. And then I learned.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #546
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I really do think it's not type-related, but rather something about the dynamics of this site under certain circumstances (per the comment I just posted). We've discussed other manifestations of this pattern in another context/with different specifics, I think.
    Then you are missing the patterns because you have already concluded which perspective you desire to see, and finding evidence to fit that as opposed to the other way around.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #547
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Then you are missing the patterns because you have already concluded which perspective you desire to see, and finding evidence to fit that as opposed to the other way around.
    aka Confirmation_bias
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #548
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    However it does seem to be in some participants' interest to keep the unnecessary misuse-of-type-sourced conflict and related ick flowing. That pattern never fails, or at least hasn't so far in what I've seen.

  9. #549
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    However it does seem to be in some participants' interest to keep the unnecessary misuse-of-type-sourced conflict and related ick flowing. That pattern never fails, or at least hasn't so far in what I've seen.
    Mane's wound is not yet healed, which is why this comes up over and over again. It's probably worth mentioning that Mane likely did not expect some of his worst possibilities to be confirmed via the interactions over time in this space. I think he came here initially to have them debunked and have his interaction with an INFJ mate be evidenced as an anomaly. And he hoped for advice to help him reestablish a relationship with his stepson.

    As for me, I'm not uncomfortable with what others routinely and continually call "ick". In this forum there's little NOW I personally gain from these discussions aside from a sense of trying to provide cognitive balance to the interaction, since in Fe world, if you are one voice amid a sea of dissenting voices, you drown. I do try to suss out some additional information that might add in future clarifications.

    eta: I should say too I have learned a ton of stuff being here, which has been very enriching. I still hold out hope for better communications between the types that seem to have more difficulty connecting in this venue.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #550
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Welp. At least INTJ-ENFP threads aren't the only catastrophic cluster fuck around here, despite being considered 'ideal' in theory.
    I haven't done my research, but based on what I've said about the function types and order in the ENTP/INFJ dynamic, it looks like the ENFP/INTJ dynamic is much the same but with Fi/Te instead of Ti/Fe: attraction through novelty and play, judging functions making it seem that there is a similar pov, which is misleading because of the totally different thought processes. All guesses.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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