User Tag List

First 444525354555664 Last

Results 531 to 540 of 870

  1. #531
    Society
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    To be clear, I don't actually think your capacity for logic is flawed - what you're doing here is a display of a tactic. Hopefully those who are engaging you already know the situation.
    yep - it seems like that because for you:
    *werebudgie dimmisses person A's reasoning because personal A is personally involved with the subject matter*
    really has nothing in common with:
    *person A dismisses werebudgie's reasoning because werebudgie is personally involved with the subject matter*
    ...the very idea the two scenario's might have something in common is so inconceivable that they must be some sort of super imposed sick frame or underlining tactics.

  2. #532
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    So, the unintended consequences of me trying to better understand publicly, as opposed to just staying in my blog, is that it's once again become an INFJs attacking Mane free-for-all. I'm just as big a disappointment in that I might be more aware of my own thought processes and more aware of how that impacts others, but I haven't been able to change them to any great degree, so what I say and what I demonstrate still don't match and I still end up hurting people who have been nothing but kind to me. This was the cost for posting that I was talking about. Flak and fallout. No direct consequence to me, but consequences to anyone else who has spoken out. It's most likely unintentional and unconscious, but it's a good way to shut down any dissenting voices. It's why so many who disagree with the most vocal INFJs give up and shut up.

    I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet--give up like the rest, or continue and deal with the fact that by doing so I get by without consequence while others don't.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #533
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    I'm really hoping this particular tactic is getting more and more obvious to those who are engaging with Mane at this point in this thread.

    (don't know if it would be - it's pretty clear to me, but I have the context pretty easily at hand. Just hoping).


  4. #534
    Member March's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    do you really not see a difference between "i fucked up and stole" and "but i wanted it so i stole it?" or - for the more relavant version "it didn't count because my intent was not for you to not have it by for me to have it so it's not real stealing" - which one would you trust with your bag?
    I do. I'd trust the person who said "I fucked up and stole" (thereby confessing that they DID something) much more than the person who said "I wanted it so I stole it" (thereby confessing how much the action suits their personality - making it a characteristic rather than an action).

    So that seems like the opposite from what you're advocating. I can't imagine how telling the person saying "I fucked up and stole" to take that on as a 'characteristic' would help to make them more trustworthy.

    Your 'more relevant' case is nothing but a straw man, and a flimsy one at that. There's no such thing as "My intent was not for you not to have it but for me to have it" if it's about physical goods - every two-year-old knows that taking something from you means you no longer have it. Anyone who'd say "it didn't count because my intent was not for you to not have it by for me to have it so it's not real stealing" needs to get their head checked.

    But there IS something like "I fucked up. I was so happy to see you that I wrapped my arms around you and whirled you in the air, and now your back hurts like a mofo." Note how this is not the same as "Sure, your back hurts but since I didn't mean to hurt your back it doesn't count." But my intent was positive: to welcome my friend and make him feel loved. There is something like "I fucked up. I needed to talk to you really badly and it couldn't wait, but I approached you in the wrong way, making you so angry that you walked onto the road and got hit by a car. I fucked up and feel partly responsible for the result." Note how this is not the same as "Meh, you got hit by a car but since I just wanted to talk to you it doesn't count." My intent was positive: to communicate about a potentially dangerous situation so we could all be more safe.

    But I'm sure you realize that and apparently I just can't seem to make myself understood.

    Anyways, sounds like an extended case of 'tomayto-tomahto' to me.

    ETA: @Eilonwy, as one of the people in the 'attacking Mane free-for-all' I'd like to emphasize that I'm not trying to attack, I'm trying to discover and clarify. Unfortunately, it does seem that the way we go about wording things leads to pangs of annoyance from both sides. Pisses me off, it does. Or, in the vernacular of this thread: "I'm fucking things up - I keep trying to build a bridge but only seem to keep widening the ditch." First rule of holes applies?

  5. #535
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    I wonder if any of the discussions which have unfolded in this thread can make an uncanny case study re OP.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #536
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    But I'm sure you realize that and apparently I just can't seem to make myself understood.
    Respectfully, I'm pretty sure that you have been understood. Can you stop your automatic thought processes, strip out any emotions or judgements that you attach to Mane's posts, stop taking the posts personally, and see if you can understand in return?

    ETA: Eilonwy, as one of the people in the 'attacking Mane free-for-all' I'd like to emphasize that I'm not trying to attack, I'm trying to discover and clarify. Unfortunately, it does seem that the way we go about wording things leads to pangs of annoyance from both sides. Pisses me off, it does. Or, in the vernacular of this thread: "I'm fucking things up - I keep trying to build a bridge but only seem to keep widening the ditch." First rule of holes applies?
    But discover and clarify is turning into an avoidance of the message by becoming about semantics and unimportant details.

    And it's also turned into the "group" against one. And if you look at that from another perspective, the one being labeled a bully has been surrounded by victims, thus switching it all around so that the victims are now being the bullies. Can you see how it could look that way, whether you believe that it is that way or not?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #537
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i know rite? i mean when you dismiss arguments because their sources have personal entanglements with the variable, that's just you being reasonable. but when others do it to you? the madness!
    arguments require common ground, a sense of trust. if you make arguments in a way that erode trust, or you don't hear each other in a way that actually inspires your compassion, your sense of care, then all the attempts to prove your point are missing the point (unless you just want to be in control). with that said, the depth of hurt someone feels can mean that continuing an argument rather than taking care of that hurt is counterproductive. it is not always easy to realize what one is actually feeling and attend to that before trying to push your arguments. when this happens, it is easy to create a total mess of relationship destruction. i've seen both entps and infjs respond to what they think the other should be feeling, rather than what they are.

    you described:
    1. forming a hypothesis which makes you feel better
    2. avoid testing if its real & condone the act of doing so
    2. name the hypothesis "the truth" to convey that its real

    you've essentially replaced the word lying with a step by step instruction manual on how to lie. if that's "Fe wisdom", we have a problem.
    it's more like a paradigm, but the activity isn't science. it's living, which is about loving at least as much as it is about codifying the laws of knowledge. if you call loving "lying," and see all acts of trust, of sharing belief, of committing under uncertainty without being so fixated on seeing how it can break, then there's no where else to go. as someone who struggles with trust himself, needing to constantly test others and myself--to live based on doubt--has shown itself to be a shitty way to live. it seems better to do what you can to prepare to respond with your best, and to recognize your own needs clearly enough that you can find a situation that can prepare you to be at your best because it supports your growth towards that version of you (that is not real yet, but is certainly a worthy guide for the path you are on).

    to most infjs, i think, identifying with the future is a natural orientation. that there are oversights from this, which we only see when we start to wake up to what has happened and realize ourselves, sit and wait and allow the past to catch up, is acceptable because it is the path we are on and we cannot change that. integrating these constructively, being patient with ourselves and seeing our actual path, of trusting our guidance along it during the uncertainties that arises from it, that's part of what it's like to be and be with us. our needs are greatly clustered around this. if those aren't accepted and worked with constructively, what can we do but recognize that we are not in the right relationship for us? i don't need to deny blindspots, but that doesn't mean that i can't accept them. accepting them gives me more space to accept others, rather than judging myself (which tends to beget the same approach to others). acceptance isn't blind. like focus, it's something we do work to support. in this case, allowing ourselves to soften our gaze and take in the whole of someone, others and ourselves.

  8. #538
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    U srsly believe any1 actually can see what this thread shows?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #539
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    U srsly believe any1 actually can see what this thread shows?
    That the OP is misguidedly optimistic (my "nice" way of saying wrong)? Unless the dynamic of ENTPs and INFJs going around and around is considered "best" by both types.

    Now stop quoting yourself...and stating the obvious. People will start to wonder.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #540
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    To the original post topic: I think I said this somewhere else, but it may bear repeating again: while I don't have firsthand experience with ENTP and INFJ romantic relationship dynamics, I do have firsthand experience with an ENTP-INFJ friendship. We get along really well. We learn together on various topics (some pretty tricky), support each other through dialogue (often through very difficult times for each of us, etc.) While she and I clearly have differences in cognitive processes, I haven't seen these differences create stress or conflict between us.

    It seems to me that there's something about some of the dynamics on this site that seem to draw out explicit or implicit clashes or other ick between participants that are - incorrectly, a lot of the time IMO - attributed to type and cognitive processes. At the same time, I've seen that there are also some amazing discussions and insights here when those problem dynamics, or whatevertheheck that is, aren't center stage.

    I'm learning a lot on this site about the limitations and problems that can come with certain uses of the MBTI/cognitive process framework. While I don't know where I'll end up and thus reserve the right to disagree with myself later, I'm currently heading toward the perspective that the only contexts in which I see this framework as truly useful are:

    1. As a tool for self-understanding related to information processing
    2. As a tool for mutual understanding in relationships/connections in which there is genuine love and/or care, shared commitment to using the tool only for the goal of mutual understanding to support the health of that connection, and a related complete and utter lack of using the framework as a weapon or other resource for fighting within that process. Also about information processing.

    eta: in case it's not obvious, that second one is not the situation in many of the interactions here
    Last edited by Werebudgie; 04-01-2014 at 04:41 PM. Reason: added a bit for clarity

Similar Threads

  1. [INFJ] INFJ's - What is your job?
    By ASublett in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 07-14-2013, 06:02 PM
  2. [INFJ] An INFJ not sympathizing...is it normal?
    By Black Hole Sun in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-20-2012, 10:45 PM
  3. [INFJ] INFJ and Love - Is not having it an issue that needs fixing?
    By kccrush in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-08-2010, 07:16 AM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ -Your heart is on your sleeve
    By harmonyizmine in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 01-14-2010, 11:46 PM
  5. [ENTP] Who is the best partner in crime for ENTP women?
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 11-28-2009, 09:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO