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  1. #501
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Learning to be strong and capable kind of ends up sucking for everyone when I do it. The blast never seems to really come my way. Instead it's deflected to those around me.
    Like you said: a) make choices & deal with consequences, live & learn, and b)unlikely that everyone else will be at the same place that will allow them to take away the same insights; and ultimately that's irrelevant, because a) is a personal path and as such so is accommodating others at the cost of inner discovery.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #502
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Like you said: a) make choices & deal with consequences, live & learn, and b)unlikely that everyone else will be at the same place that will allow them to take away the same insights; and ultimately that's irrelevant, because a) is a personal path and as such so is accommodating others at the cost of inner discovery.
    Thanks. I still have a lot to learn.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #503
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    @March -
    given that you've color coded it yourself and can probably see that you needed to add the suggestion of malicious intent onto my words...
    have you considered whats the reason for that?
    and while you are it - that other INFJs facing a reality in which they have caused harm - might do the exact same thing?
    that's why i asked you how do you communicate to an INFJ when they've screwed you over without them jumping to intent - the mental leap to what might something imply isn't controllable externally.

    as far as asshole goes, 'anything and anyone who's actions cause me to feel pain' is a pretty much how it is used - i mean do you honestly think there are people who sit and plot motivated for the sole purpose of causing you pain? i wish i was asking sarcastically but a few INFJs have outright expressed this belief, if so then the answer is.. no - simply put, while it might be very important for you, your internal emotional state is unlikely to be a central motivation for anyone you aren't closed too. for the most part people hurt others because they don't care, because didn't think of what it does, both (didn't care enough to think about it), or because their ends justified the means. of the remaining cases, if someone truly desires to cause you pain for its own goal, that usually entails personal anger or hate - a sense that you've wronged them or someone close (justified or not). beyond that... i suppose there's true sadism, though that is rather rare, and "asshole" is not sufficient to describe it.

    so to answer the question i left you hanging with last time:
    you can take it for granted that whenever anyone accuses you of being an asshole, its almost always going to be because of a behavior, and an underlining hope that you'll stop - that is, they are in fact assuming that you are not inherently an asshole but rather that it's a malleable state which you are expected to have have some degree of control over. so yes, it is a behavioral accusation. in fact almost every description of an agent is a description of i's behavior and interactions with other agents. even right now, the post you quoted above is describing a mental behavior.

    but - given the above - if you refuse to see yourself from perspective in which your behavior makes you into asshole, your values no longer mean to others that you'll avoid going against your values in your treatment of others, they merely appear to do so on the surface while they in actuality hold the promise that you will hold their experience of your behavior to be distorted once you do - and in doing so, you aren't promising to try to avoid hurting people, you are demanding that they'll pretend to not be hurt by you. those sort of values might be worth something to make yourself feel better, but they aren't worth anything to anyone else.

  4. #504
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    @the state i am in - remember how above i "forced onto you" the terms in which telling things to be more emotionally appealing then they actually are is another way to describe lying?

    here's the thing - whether i am there to say it or not - regardless if the idea that it is lying has any way to reach your consciousness as your expressing your "inner truth" - the people on the receiving end are still being lied too.

    no amount of semantic play is going to change that, avoiding anyone who would say it wont change that, trying to make sure its all told on your own exclusive terms and demanding that nobody else talks wont change that. that isn't a pleasant story, its not one that feels good form your perspective, but it is the sequence of events outside of you - the one that everyone else gets to experience, because it's real - instead of having to be maintained by dodging information that doesn't fit it or demanding that nobody will describe it in anyway but your own -it is actually supported by observation and consistent with different points of view.
    much like as we've brought up in the past - the coincidence of where you hear information and your emotions towards the source can not magically turn the piece of information into fiction or fact -like wise i do not need to be there to call it lying - nothing i do has the magical power to turn it into lying or vise versa - the act of avoiding any perspective from which it is lying doesn't have the magical power to turn it into you being honest. your demand that people will only see your story your way by your own terms is as far from a real honest interactions you can get - it is quite bluntly an attempt to make honest interaction against the rules of your relationships - everyone else gets to interact with who you actually are - and you expecting that they'll ignore him in favor of a fictional character in your head better suited to encompass your biases. and if pointing at people a gun demanding that they'll call your soul pretty or you'll mentally kill their perspective isn't bullying, then no form of emotional abuse is.

    but let's untangle this - my premise isn't complicated:
    • your stance is that you have the right and freedom to describe who you are are regardless of anyone else's experience of you.
    • i am pointing out the other side of the same coin: the who which you claim you are is not a reliable indicator of anyone else's experience of you.


    why is that so hard to believe that if you'll say "fuck off" to the universe and everyone in it, the universe and everyone in it then has to deal with a man telling it to fuck off?

  5. #505
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    but let's untangle this - my premise isn't complicated:
    • your stance is that you have the right and freedom to describe who you are are regardless of anyone else's experience of you.
    • i am simply pointing out the other coin: the who which you claim you are is not a reliable indicator of anyone else's experience of you.


    why is that so hard to believe that if you'll say "fuck off" to the universe and everyone in it, the universe and everyone in it then has to deal with a man telling it to fuck off?
    Using what Eilonwy wrote as an example, it's possible, however, the mental rewiring that can lead to such awareness can't be forced. As depicted by this thread/the forum/the internet/the entire human history/Nature/The Universe seeks balance, and instilling energy only creates polarity.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #506
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    This is a loaded question fallacy kind of thing. If you defend yourself in any way, it is automatically due to self-delusion for the purpose of protecting your ego. The only way to win is to not play.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #507
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    This is a loaded question fallacy kind of thing. If you defend yourself in any way, it is automatically due to self-delusion for the purpose of protecting your ego. The only way to win is to not play.
    Or just answer everything with, "WRONG!" with a dollop of "Why?" every now and then to make it look like you care, and to also cause them to say something to which you can then reply, "WRONG!"
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  8. #508
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Or just answer everything with, "WRONG!" with a dollop of "Why?" every now and then to make it look like you care, and to also cause them to say something to which you can then reply, "WRONG!"
    Shh, ur spilling away ze secrets
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #509
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Or just answer everything with, "WRONG!" with a dollop of "Why?" every now and then to make it look like you care, and to also cause them to say something to which you can then reply, "WRONG!"
    That sounds a lot like work. And work is not the worst thing ever, but this is like mopping the bathroom floor while the toilet is still backing up.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #510
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    It's not ENTP, but for what it's worth, my ESTP bro-in-law and I have been getting along much better since I've been trying to figure all of this out. My AZ nephew, who I suspect might be INTP, who has always considered me his favorite aunt, still noticed an improvement in how we got along when he visited recently. So, you guys might get the shit part of me figuring this out, but the people in my real life are reaping some benefits. So, worth it. At least to them and to me.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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