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  1. #491
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    If you want a real entp you prolly need some romantic intellectualism going on with brave decision and grave opinion.

    otherwise my opinion is: this thread is total bullshit.
    Well, it was started by an ENTP so I don't think it was people saying they wanted real ENTPs. And it is reasonable to concluded, as the author did, that it is not a good match. I would agree that it is not, in most cases, as much as MBTI types can indicate anything about human interaction.

    I am not in the market, but if I was I would have reservations about a partnership with an ENTP because I am very introverted. I have learned how to extrovert when I need to, so I do not need someone else to do that for me. I think it's likely there would be too much conflict and too many differences for me to be happy with an extrovert or for them to be happy with me.

    I have seen it work for others, though, and work very well. It requires a lot of mutual respect. I very much admire people who can manage it, but I think I'd rather be single than exert that much effort.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #492
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I have been together with an infp for 10 years. No it doesnt.

    E-types need E-types, end of discussion.

    I am glad you agree
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I have been together with an infp for 10 years. No it doesnt.

    E-types need E-types, end of discussion.

    I am glad you agree
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #494
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I've been trying to distill my thoughts down to something more Ti, but it isn't happening, so you get what you get. Also, my usual disclaimer, because I know next to nothing about typology and I'm going to be sloppy with it, but hopefully everyone will get the drift.

    My ex-husband is ENTP (we took the MBTI during a marriage counseling session). We knew each other for 5 years before we got married, and we were married for 5 years. Reflecting back on the marriage, I think we were a good match. But the divorce, this forum, and other discussions through the years got me thinking more in depth about why it seemed to be a good match and what might have gone wrong. This is what I've come up with so far.

    I think the attraction, at least from my end, came from the shared intuition. I think that shared intuition is where the love of novelty and play connect, but I also think that shared Ti modifies the kinds of novelty that appeals to both types. I've found that I can be attracted to INTPs in a similar way, though the Ti connection seems stronger and the Ni/Ne connection, that sense of play, seems weaker to me. It's a more tempered sense of play, a different sort of novelty, and a more pick-their-brains connection with INTPs, imo. And, even though I enjoy the Ni connections with INTJs, the Ti/Te and Fi/Fe connections make for a completely different and muted sense of play.

    I had a LTR with an ESTP before I met my ex, and that relationship had a strong sense of play to it, too. It was a more physical type of play, as opposed to a more mental type of play, though. We went fishing, worked on his car, rode in the dune buggy--stuff like that. There was a mental connection, too, but the main connection revolved around physically doing things together.

    When I think about the stuff I did with my ex, the things that come to mind revolve around the enjoyment of the shared mental stimulation of going to sci-fi conventions, hanging with the people in the Doctor Who fan club, and going to movies.

    What I also found attractive were all the traits my ex possessed that I wished I had, or that I wished I had the courage to display. He had an ease about him, where I'm awkward and clumsy. I loved his sense of humor and quick wit. I loved that he didn't care much about conforming to social conventions.

    I think the placement and order of our judgment functions (Ti/Fe, Fe/Ti) made for a strong attraction/connection, too. There's a sort of yin-yang dynamic going on there. Hard vs soft, rational vs emotional, concrete vs abstract. It's intriguing to be somewhat alike, and yet with a different emphasis. My personality was hard where his was soft, and it was soft where his was hard.

    But some of the things that were attractive also became issues or could have become issues.

    The humor and wit that I loved could suddenly become a problem in the wrong social setting. What I realized after the divorce, and even more so from this forum, is that this wasn't a problem that needed to be fixed, it was an aspect of his personality that I needed to accept. This could work the other way, too, with him wanting me to loosen up past a point that I was comfortable with.

    I think that both of us were at a disadvantage, because of type, as far as cultural and social expectations for making a living and running a household went. Each of us had issues with job satisfaction, taking on long-term responsibility, and realistic thinking. Neither of us was all that comfortable with completely taking on the role of the responsible one, and we didn't figure out how to divide it up in a way that worked.

    I think we both put too much focus or gave too much weight to our own preferred judging function, seeing in the other what wasn't really there. In other words, I would see the emotional side of him and interpret it according to my own emotional side, and he would see my rational side and interpret it according to his own rational side. From what I've learned here, I think that those interpretations ended up being way too simplistic because our underlying thought processes were not alike. So, even though his emotional side had some similarity to mine, the way he processed it, thought about it, and dealt with it was different, and vice versa.*

    Communication issues have been brought up previously in this thread. I hadn't thought that my ex and I had big communication issues, but since being here, I've changed my mind. We most likely did have communication issues that neither of us were aware of at the time. I add emotion, can be vague, talk in examples, and can have things bounce around in my head for a long time before they come out. Plus, Je communication is more structured, while Pe communication is more spontaneous, which can end up with misunderstandings, probably more from my end, because it's basically a Je world and he already had to adjust to that.

    Something I've learned from this forum, rather than seeing it happening directly during my marriage, is that it seems that our fast- and slow-processing areas don't match up very well and that can lead to each type making the other feel stupid, frustrated, or unheard if we don't both figure out ways to adjust.

    At the time of our divorce, I thought the biggest problem in our marriage was my ex's mother, who was a real piece of work, so I didn't see either of us as being at fault. He decided to leave for my sake. I let him leave. I don't know if he sees it the same way or not.

    Afterwards, I questioned my role in the failure of our marriage, knowing that I was the common factor in all of my failed relationships. That eventually led here, and from what I've learned here, I've started to question how I interpreted the whole relationship. There are a lot of areas in which the way I think could have caused problems or could have hindered resolving them. His mom was a real problem, but it's possible that I focused on her as the issue, something outside of myself, instead of seeing my own contributions to any problems.

    I can't say whether an ENTP/INFJ relationship can work or not. It has a lot of things going for it and a lot of things going against it.

    *ETA: I've come to learn that my ex wasn't a more rational, socially looser version of me, which is what I would have thought, given that I assumed that our thought processes were at least similar, if not the same. And I'm not a more emotional, uptight version of him, either. It's actually still difficult to grasp how differently all of the types think, even though I know it intellectually.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    So whats the conclusion ?
    what i have so far:

    here's when ENTPs are lacking more then other types - the ability to not argue.
    or rather: you'll need to adapt to a narrative where harming you & your loved ones will be justified & expected to repeat itself in the future, and give up on the ability to reason otherwise.

    why? well, people fuck up - in relationships, friendships, anything. but... not an INFJ:
    • you experience being fucked over by an INFJ who did X to you
    • the implication that they would do X conflict with their ego
    • which means any expression implying that must be wrong
    • which means you are expressing it to hurt their feelings
    • which means you must maliciously want them to be hurt
    • which means your perspective is no longer trustworthy
    • proving that your perspective was wrong and distorted

    note: they do not have to use this coping strategy, but its available to them at the cost of very little cognitive dissonance if any (the particular convolution needed between the steps to maintain the sense of narrative cohesiveness will vary), and when they do, they have formed the prefect mechanism to avoid any level of reasoning. ideally it would be "the unhealthy ones", but with an alarming consistency, INFJs report experiencing to act of others expressing any statement implying that they might be doing harm to be first and foremost harmful and abusive towards themselves.

    that is not saying that INFJs are particularly inclined to destructive behaviors, it just means you are entirely dependent on their self awareness and ability to stop themselves before the act - they can not be reasoned with to treat you well when they don't, so its only a matter of how successful they are at avoiding it in the first place... and the good news is that to a remarkable extent they do have that ability - many of them develop the habit of spending a tremendous amount of energy on figuring out how to not screw up.
    however, naturally their ability to do so is limited, both by human limits and because the above coping strategy has its cost: while everyone else screws up, stumbles in trial and error and grows from personal lessons and the patterns between them, INFJs have learned learned to justify their failings rather than avoid them. in the case of ENTPs, this creates an ironic scenario of the turtle racing the rabbit - ENTPs as a type tends to be particularly slow in developing the capacity for thoughtfulness, but INFJs stop running the race of emotional development very early on and instead prefer to claim their asses to already be the finish line. basically - do not expect them to be able to experience empathy or be able to reason when their ego is in stake - do not go with an INFJ because you expect them to be kind or insightful, and do not go for an INFJ expecting to be treated well. but you'll have to stick to their story in which they are.

    so what do you do? simple - stomach it.
    basically you either leave, or you let them. in the the few cases of people who maintained successful long term relationships with INFJs demonstrate an acceptance to a social norm where thinking of their INFJs negatively is the highest of social taboo's to not even be thought of. people leave decades long relationships, romances, siblings and even child-parent relationships without any clue at how to reason responsibility with an INFJ and expressions of doubt on whether its possible. in a few rare cases INFJs are able to get there on their own, but this in itself has consistently required decades after the fact, when they can distance themselves from their past selves. externally - as far as you are concerned - there is no known method of reasoning with them. so accept their narrative, accept that whatever harm or destructiveness to your well being or that of others (children family or friends) is now considered legitimate & justified behavior which you should expect to be repeated on the count of the existing justification, or leave.

    what this means will vary - whether you should expect miniscule normative harms or a never ending world of pain - depends entirely on the circumstances more then anything else. they will not all fuck up to the same extents or in the same ways, and your own areas of vulnerability will differ, but but when it happens, expect to have to adapt to a narrative in which causing you that pain will always be justified. if you are making commitments were leaving is no longer viable (children, financial, etc), be aware that whatever is thrown at you - any harm or destructive behavior caused to you or anyone else - will be a behavior which you will simply have to live with, in a narrative where the harm is acceptable and can not be counter argued or reasoned away. when it comes - whatever it is - bend over to take it or leave, because it isn't going anywhere.

    i'd say the type of person that can stomach that for a life time must be either the zen master of understanding or one very welcoming doormat, or some kind of hybrid of both.
    i don't know about other ENTPs, but i'm neither of the two.

  6. #496
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    So, after a few days of digesting this new information, I think I've figured out how the coping strategy Mane talked about works. This post will probably cost me in a lot of different ways, but this is supposed to be a place to learn about types and this is what I think I've learned about myself.

    So many types here kept putting forth the same complaints about INFJs. At first I couldn't see it, but after a lot of self-examination, I could see that the complaints were valid from points of view other than my own. I've posted about a lot of the more embarrassing stuff in my blog, as well as here and there around the forum--not being in complete control of my emotions; my early family issues being a driving force behind what I think and how I behave; how I can think that feeling bad will atone for behaving badly; issues with responsibility, powerlessness, unrealistic thinking, and extreme or catastrophic thinking.

    So, now I'll add another one to the list. There are always several layers of meanings to my thinking. All sorts of possibilities existing at the same time. I might whittle them down in order to present one to the world, but the others are still available in my head and completely valid. And that's where some of the problem comes in. Those other possibilities are still completely valid within my own framework. They fit all the information I've gathered. They were a part of my thinking all along the way, so I didn't just make them up in the moment in order to present a more palatable version of things. But, unfortunately, I think that's what happens when I'm confronted with information about myself that's embarrassing or otherwise not acceptable to my ego. I sift through all the layers and meanings and find the one that will help keep my ego intact. It's still completely valid from my pov. And it probably is completely valid in other ways, too. Except that it's not taking into consideration that whatever information is being presented to me that I find unpalatable is also completely valid. It may not be from my pov, but it is valid nonetheless. (And let's not get into the nitpicking about serial killers and what not. I'm talking about ordinary people who aren't trying to take advantage of anyone, they're trying to bring up an issue that they want to solve so that the relationship can move forward.)

    In the big picture of things, in my head, both pov's can be true, though, in some situations that can be difficult to resolve within my own thinking. What I've had to learn is to not present the other valid possibilities as an excuse. What I hope other types will consider is that there's more going on in my head than what you see coming out of me. But what I have to do is take responsibility for that stuff that comes out of me and how it's impacted other people. Because I did unleash it into the world and it did have an impact, whether it was one I intended it to have or not. And I've known that for a long time now, I just wasn't aware of how I might use the way my mind works to weasel out of being responsible.


    ETA: Since it occurred to me that everyone will assign their own intent to this post, I thought I'd state what mine actually is. I'm posting this for no other reason than in the hopes that what I've learned will prove to be of benefit to those who are here to learn. I can see a bunch of other possibilities for why I'm posting this, and they all have their consequences attached to them, which is why, no matter my actual intent, this post will probably cost me. Those possibilities and their consequences are what made me NOT want to post this. And I'm reluctant to have to face those consequences when they are a result of possibilities that weren't my original intent. But learning something and keeping it to myself when it could benefit others seemed to have a worse consequence attached to it, imo.

    ETA2: I'm being told that everyone's dominant function protects their ego in a similar way, so what about me makes it different and exclusive to my type? I don't know, but I'm thinking it has to do with risk avoidance, which I would say is stronger in Je than in Pe (I notice a particularly strong urge to avoid risk, especially social risk, in me). Plus, I've mentioned a strong urge for flight over fight before. Since I only have bits and pieces, I'm going back to my blog to work it out, rather than doing so in this thread.
    Last edited by Eilonwy; 03-31-2014 at 11:48 AM. Reason: tried to make ETA clearer. Added ETA2
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #497
    Member March's Avatar
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    Ha, @Mane! I promised to get back to you on that INFJ coping strategy thing. I'd been turning it around and around in my mind but couldn't get a (sufficiently concise) handle on it. But now you've summarized your perspective on that strategy in helpful bullet points, so I can jump off of that. Still can't promise conciseness, though. (If you want me to move this to the other thread, please let me know & I'll do so.)

    This is how I see that same coping strategy from the inside. Cause yup, I have it in spades. Yet that doesn't mean I can't be corrected, can't learn from my mistakes, and don't change my ways if someone I love tells me they don't like something I did.

    Edited to add: Just to be clear, I'm a fallible human who's caused hurt. I have not ever cheated on someone, stole all their money, or left them to deal with an untenable situation alone. So I don't know what goes on in people who do that - all I can do is generalize from my own hurtful actions to larger hurtful actions.

    why? well, people fuck up - in relationships, friendships, anything. Including INFJs. And boy do they know it. But they're not able to just roll with any punches you're dealing out in return.... not an INFJ:
    • you experience being fucked overhurt by an INFJ who did X to you --> Let's start with the basic observation. A did action X, B felt emotion Y because action X wasn't compatible with B's need for Z. This analysis doesn't need any judgements on A's intent.
    • You let them know that they did something that hurt you AND that you think it's because that hurt was the intent behind their action.
    • the implication that they would do X maliciously, with intent to hurt conflicts with their ego --> not sure if you're using 'ego' in a pejorative way, here, as in 'conceit' or in a descriptive way, as in 'self-image or self-worth,' but on the whole I agree with that assessment. People generally think themselves a lot better than they actually are (conceit) in certain areas, but they also base their self-worth on the amount of care and attention they have for certain areas. Knowing you hurt someone is hurtful, and yet people need to grow up and understand that the hurt they feel for having hurt someone isn't as important as the hurt the other person feels because of their actions. (And definitely that the person they hurt isn't the one to get soothed by - that's what buddies are for.) But that's only relevant to the 'Yo, you did something painful and I need you to make amends' bit - the 'yo, you did something painful because you're an asshole and you need to make amends' problem is different altogether.
    • which means any expression implying that they 'fucked you over' maliciously must be wrong --> which it IS, by the way. Of course there are probably some grade-A INFJ deliberate assholes, but on the whole INFJs will hurt people because they were trying to help, because they are clueless about something (either trying to give something they thought the other wanted or needed, or trying to get something they thought the other would be OK in giving), because they trigger on an implied judgement and respond badly, because they imply something that triggers the other's sore spots, because they're overwhelmed and overwrought and no longer consider other people's perspectives or (and I agree this is wrong) because they're feeling so miserable and misunderstood that they figure the only way to get through to the other person is to make them aware of that misery in a visceral way instead of an intellectual way. The focus is on doing something productive/helpful, whether their actions end up hurting you directly (trying to help you lift something; dump a 100-pound rock on your toes) or indirectly (rushing out the door to meet one of the gazillion obligations they've saddled themselves with; run over your dog). 'Because I wanted you to hurt for no good reason at all' is not on this list, and I can't imagine it being there under any circumstance. Yet I've still hurt people. This isn't meant to disparage the hurt someone feels at the INFJ's actions at all, by the way - you can feel as hurt as you've ever felt by an INFJ without that necessarily meaning that they're gloating, malicious or intentional about it. It also doesn't mean they're not culpable. If I run over your dog because I'm trying to be a saint, I still didn't manage to pay proper attention.
    • which means you are expressing it to hurt their feelings --> I've never considered someone expressing their hurt to be doing that deliberately with the sole intent to hurt my feelings. (Of course it DOES, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.) I HAVE considered someone expressing their hurt AND disparaging my intentions at the same time to be doing so deliberately - since it is possible to express how you feel perfectly clearly without bringing up my intentions one way or the other, the intention stuff must be intentional, right? (When someone I don't know well disparages my intentions, I try to suss out if they're just being unnecessarily forceful in their language by offering apologies for the pain but not for the intention, ask them to clarify, or offer an explanation for the action while also offering an apology and asking what I can do to make amends. If they double down on the intention, that tells me things.)
    • which means you must maliciously want them to be hurt --> After a while, that does become the most obvious conclusion. If you're insisting on their reasons being other than they are AND telling them that your judgement about their intentions should trump their own perception of their intentions and that they have to 'accept the truth' that they are worthless, the possibility that this is part of your goal becomes hard to ignore.
    • which means your perspective is no longer trustworthy --> Yup. Because either you have no idea who they are (so you can't possibly know them well enough to suggest solutions that work) or you DO know who they are and there's something in the way the two of you communicate that garbles that perspective. (Or you really do think they're worthless, something they probably don't want to consider right there and then.) Either way, they'd be mad to take your words at face value - you'd need to re-establish a common language first, and until that's sufficiently tested and reliable, your comments can only ever be taken under advisement and stored for re-evaluation at a later time.
    • proving that your perspective was wrong and distorted --> Nope, proving that you have no business talking to each other right now, because apparently something's blocking your communication. That doesn't mean your perspective is wrong, it just means that your perspective and their perspective don't overlap in certain areas that are necessary for the travel of ideas from one brain to the other. In the case of non-INFJ persisting in insisting that INFJ must have had intent to hurt because otherwise they wouldn't have done something so hurtful, it does signal a certain unwillingness to find common ground, and unless explained otherwise, they'll probably hold that against you for a long time.


    From other posts of yours, @Mane, it seems that you're somewhat invested in being able to push your judgements on other people, and have them take those on board. In the other threads, one way you phrased it was something like 'INFJs need to be able to accept that they've been assholes.' You repeated that quite often, so I'm going to assume that's how you'd like to be able to express yourself to someone who hurt you.

    (And if the following sounds like an elaborate song-and-dance routine to deflect responsibility, please believe me when I say this is really what's going on under the hood when someone calls me out on a hurtful thing I did AND thinks my intentions were bad.)

    The word 'asshole', to me and maybe to other INFJs, isn't compatible with what was going on inside my head when I hurt people. Asshole means, roughly, 'a stupid, irritating, or contemptible person.' (Yay, dictionary definitions.)

    Irritating is neutral - that just describes how someone perceives my actions. The ways I've been really hurtful, though, were far beyond 'irritating,' and the people I've hurt seemed to be experiencing emotions worse than 'irritated' so I'm guessing someone using the word asshole wouldn't want to foreground that connotation too much.

    Stupid? The times I hurt people were also the times where I was actively juggling 100s of considerations before taking action - I knew the situations were complex and fraught and I was trying to make the best out of it. Of course, that backfired enormously, and I felt awful and ashamed and worthless, but the problem was not a lack of intelligence or care in my decisions. (A lack of common sense? Well, definitely, if you define common sense as the thing that helps you get the outcomes you envision. But that still renders the word meaningless.)

    And 'contemptible' - whoah, that's the main problem right here. That's a flavour of the word 'asshole' that sets off all my alarm bells. And it's not just a slight flavour - to me the point of calling someone an asshole is to say that you despise them and are justified in despising them. While of course there are many things in life that are acually contemptible, that has all to do with intent. Not with effect. Any action can be done in contemptible and not-contemptible ways - If I put my toddler son in the microwave because I want to see him suffer, that's contemptible (and society should throw me in prison), but if I put my toddler son in the microwave because he was cold, that's not contemptible (just terminally stupid and probably not fit to live in society without supervision - society should put me in a mental ward). Effect is the same - dead kid, locked-up parent. Judgement is wildly different. Intent isn't magic, in that having a good intention doesn't automagically take away the hurt. (And in some cases, like betrayal, it probably deepens the hurt.) But it should count for SOMETHING.

    And my intent has always been something positive. Of course I still deserve a slap on the wrist (or a punch to the nose) if my positive intent results in negative outcomes, but saying I'm an asshole (i.e. that my intent is contemptible) when my intent was to be efficient or bridge a gap between us or be loving or be playful or be any of the host of good intentions with bad execution that got me into trouble is just a big *DOES NOT COMPUTE* to my brain. If I'm in a relationship (personal, professional, you name it) with someone who thinks me trying to express my dedication is contemptible, there's something deeply wrong there. And that until that wrongness is fixed, problem triage tells me there's no point in fixing anything else. Of course I'm still aware of the hurt I caused you, but focusing on that would be as useless as stabilizing a broken leg while the arterial spray is hitting the ceiling. Unfortunately, that contributes to the idea that INFJs can 't be held responsible for hurting people - I am likely to turn the conversation around to the communication/judgement issue and put the hurtful thing I did on the back burner. It's a side effect, not an intentional 'screw you and your pain, I'm more important than that!', but of course that doesn't really help the feelings of the person I hurt in that moment, given we've got a hell of a communication problem going on anyway. (If I got my druthers, we'd re-establish the communication/relationship and then immediately turn to the hurt - "OK, I see that you were trying to do something positive and I don't hold you in contempt for failing to achieve it. Now my leg still hurts like a mofo and I need you to know I really hate what you did and want you to never do that again ever."

    -------

    Part of me wonders if the whole thing isn't just a complete misunderstanding/mismatch. INFJs can be chastized with a look and a raised eyebrow ('puppy face' also works really well - do that and watch me fall all over myself to apologize and make it up to you!), so people insisting on chastizing with insults and judgements FEEL like they're out to destroy. The word 'overkill' comes to mind. Other people have way thicker skin and can listen to insults and yelling and incorrect judgements about their intentions without breaking a sweat, and would probably not even notice a raised eyebrow. (And most people are probably some interesting mix - my husband needs me to stomp my feet to get him to notice that I didn't like something he did, but I better make sure to not make any assumptions about how he feels or we've got problems.)

    Does it all come down to self-knowledge? I know I need someone who can be gentle in correcting me, and who is aware and sensitive to gentle corrections themselves. I also know people who pull out all the stops when they're expressing their dislike or hurt, and who need people to be willing to come out swinging at them as well. (And people who yell but hate to be yelled at, and people who don't mind others yelling at them but always express their own dismay in a whisper.) Is it just a matter of picking someone compatible to you? Like picking the right family dog - exuberant people shouldn't adopt greyhounds or they'd traumatize them without even trying (and probably judge their dog stupid and stubborn, because being flooded by fear isn't conducive to learning and corrections), and quiet people shouldn't adopt Staffordshire terriers or their dogs would simply never noticed them at all (and probably judge their dog stupid and stubborn, because not being interested isn't conducive to learning and corrections).

    And maybe it's got something to do with Jungian functions, too. Not being an ENxP, I wouldn't know, but I've read a lot of posts/books where people say ENxPs (and ESxPs to a lesser extent) are happy putting judgements 'out there' without necessarily believing them in a generalized way. So where I'd say someone is an asshole to mean 'he is irritating and stupid and I despise him, and he's proven to be that way for a sufficiently long time and in sufficient areas that I'm comfortable judging him as such' (as opposed to 'Well, John is a little unsophisticated when dealing with horses but otherwise he's not bad'), ENxPs would be comfortable calling someone an asshole if they evoke the same judgement for just a little while. If that's true, that changes everything - you're basically 'devaluing' (my NiFe judgement) a lot of insults into simply being expressions of disgruntlement/inner state of minds ('asshole' = 'anything and anyone whose actions cause me to feel pain'), not actual judgements about the other person. Of course, if a person threw out the word 'asshole' a couple of times a day, or if they'd mitigate the impact of the 'contemptible' bit by smiling or grinning or a friendly slap in the shoulder, that's different. But I'm reading an intensity in your posts that's led me to assume you don't mean it that way. Which actually makes all this a roundabout way of asking, "Yo @Mane (or any other ExxP who feels like answering), could you tell me exactly what you mean by 'asshole'?"

  8. #498
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    what i have so far:

    here's when ENTPs are lacking more then other types - the ability to not argue.
    or rather: you'll need to adapt to a narrative where harming you & your loved ones will be justified & expected to repeat itself in the future, and give up on the ability to reason otherwise.

    why? well, people fuck up - in relationships, friendships, anything. but... not an INFJ:
    • you experience being fucked over by an INFJ who did X to you
    • the implication that they would do X conflict with their ego
    • which means any expression implying that must be wrong
    • which means you are expressing it to hurt their feelings
    • which means you must maliciously want them to be hurt
    • which means your perspective is no longer trustworthy
    • proving that your perspective was wrong and distorted
    there are many ways to define any action. if you would simply report how something affected you, what your internal experience was, rather than trying to take control of their action by defining it, you might have better results. you are as free as you want to be to say that that's not how society works, that you shouldn't have to. but it is the emotionally intelligent way to communicate in real RELATIONSHIP with others, in a way that allows them to define themselves on their own terms rather than trying to force them to be accountable to yours. if you allow them to see, if you show them, they will generally have a much easier time allowing the intrinsic care we feel when we truly know what is happening for someone else, that shows us in a way that we realize is too part of us.

    i'm offering this because i am trying to show that the experience i have of what you post is unconstructive and frustrating. i have all these questions. what is your story doing that is different than presupposing you are right and trying to establish your perspective as fact? how does anyone else, any infj, really even get to interact with you in a real, honest way? what could they really do other than allow you to control them in the way you seem to be trying to do so? what can we give you, really, other than a willingness to be open to what you are feeling, especially when you won't share your inner experience (the part that is really yours) as much as focusing on what is objectively TRUE according to you. that's not the same, and we can't grant that, especially if it doesn't seem true for us, even if part of us wants to understand and find a way to accommodate that, to consider how that could be true in some sense. it's just, when i watch it unfold, i've seen multiple infjs try, as it starts off with an attempt to understand, and then it breaks down, and the infj is condemned for that breakdown as if it is an intrinsic quality of theirs, rather than a consistent relational problem that is not simply one side's fault. to me it looks like an ongoing miscommunication rooted in a kind of mutual neediness and a lot of misguided projection. for instance, i don't see infjs obsessed with proving anything. we generally commit to belief more than we commit to a need to prove something (even if we do have an intense need for SUPPORT for that belief from others, to feel like they are truly hearing us and validating how it is in some sense part of who we are, part of what feels beautiful and inspiring to us). F predominates, which can sometimes lead to overstatedness and overgeneralization (obscuring the underlying qualifications of something), but its sense of the truth comes largely from its own strength of belief. to balance T and F is to rely on both objective and embodied senses of truth, and when pushed to feel like we simply have to give up our embodied sense and that someone is pushing us to treat this embodied sense as if it is not REAL (when it is very real to us, even if it is only ultimately a form of information), is to us to commit an act of violent aggression against us. who we are is not respected.

    this is related to what i was trying to say before. testing people is not the same as truly empathizing with them and allowing them the space of their own beliefs, especially as they go deeper into us than the contentious words and ideologues that give voice to them in legalistic, socio-political space. no one likes being railroaded. i appreciate others who are able to help me with accountability, and who ask me to be present and really open up to what is happening right now. i also know i need patience, because this is not always easy for me and sometimes i need time and space to let my own sense of realization catch up, the part of our awareness that has much less to do with frameworks and much more to do with the plot. this accountability, committing to it, working with it, i totally understand is the path to personal freedom. it's what allows you to trust the choosing part of you, the work part of you that will follow through and take responsibility to control what you can control. it helps you work with a situation skillfully. at the same time, without surrendering in some sense to your own embodied reality, respecting the fact that you are on a path that you are not in total control of, that you are not even fully in control of yourself and that you are a needy motherfucker who has to deal with constant dependencies, that in fact who you are is inherently so dependent it cannot even be itself without others, well, then you don't really have any basis for empathizing with what it's like to be someone else, especially across those challenging differences. testing, when fixated, is sometimes too narrow of a perspective to truly recognize, respect, and appreciate the wholeness of something, its qualitative sense. for instance, if i am really upset, i can test different stories that i articulate to myself. but if i never notice how i am actually feeling, what various things are happening in my body and what i am holding on to, i'm so much less likely to realize the anxiety and repressed anger still there. i'm less likely then to notice how that is detracting from the neutrality of my story-telling, the neutrality of my voice. the whole process isn't constructive, isn't balanced, until i get a sense of the whole of myself, allow myself to find a centered perspective with respect to a whole i can believe in, and truly take account of the various aspects of myself so that i can recognize where i am at and how i might be able to move forward internally and not just externally, in waves and not just in a straight line to get to a somewhere but to instead cultivate a healthy give and take, a reciprocity, a circularity, a positive relationship, an ecology.



    *******

    i know infjs are not intrinisically good at recognizing their own needs, which makes this connection challenging. i don't think entps generally are good at it either. what i have seen from both types, however, is when they are in a clear enough place to really see what is true for someone else, and when they are really able to connect with what the other is experiencing, they do and will consistently care. like, deep down, we just KNOW it just feels better to do so.

    for me, the word on infjs is just this. infjs (like isfjs) have a great sensitivity toward being bullied and/or feeling bullied. when others have difficulty controlling the infj story, or feeling like they can influence that story in a tangible way, it can be frustrating for them. it can be most challenging when others egos are also digging in, so they lose the ability to actually see what the experience for the infj is like. meanwhile, infjs are often (especially via e4, e1) highly perfectionistic, extremely sensitive to shame, and full of challenging to meet expectations. this can be a primary source for egocentric responses on their path. their lack of full presence, at times, can be challenging, as can the fact that they are often slower to realize how the moment is evolving. especially when their egos are dug in and their ability to orient, to interpret broadly, gets obscured or identifies too strongly with itself. this way of identifying too strongly with just a piece of themselves undermines balanced perspective and leads to problematic conclusions, largely because it undermines the ability to truly account for the different pieces of oneself whose interactions with each other are the story of our self, our sense of self-awareness, as we realize what's really happening within us and not just in terms of what outside is causing us to feel what we are feeling. this sense of boundaries, cultivated through observing what is happening on the inside as much as the outside, helps us cultivate our integrity with a much, much deeper sense of self-awareness rather than solely through what we believe to be a positive intention. by having the balance between these two, we allow what has happened to catch up, which holds what should happen accountable and helps us really situate in the present moment more constructively.

    the funny thing is that to inventory the infinite purposes of all things and get to the ends of TELOS and recognize its flaws help us become really good teachers for entps fixated on a purposeless sense of freedom. just as the straight jacket of intention needs freedom, range of motion, experimentation, openness, and a willingness to respect the laws of time and the dharma that would help us realize what is truly happening right now if we commit to clearly observing it. entps, so obsessed with change, become perfect teachers for those who have such challenge, such restrictions, with responding to and flowing with it as it is now. this is just what seems to be true of my experience so far and what i believe will continue to be true.
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  9. #499
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Here, this might come in handy
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #500
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post

    Here, this might come in handy
    Learning to be strong and capable, and to accept the unintended consequences of my actions, kind of ends up sucking for everyone when I do it. The full blast never seems to really come my way. Instead it's unfairly deflected to those around me.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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