User Tag List

First 37454647484957 Last

Results 461 to 470 of 870

  1. #461
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    I agree, completely. And that's a really good way of describing it, the bolded. I just think that functions, being tools, means that Pi, as a tool, taps into the memory of our experiental data, and it is not within the user's conscious control, it's subconscious. Pi is not a vessel that holds the experiental data. It functions to perceive the experiental data, stored within our memory, in a certain way (leading to the difference in perceptions between Ni and Si).
    Yes, I agree it doesn't "contain" the experiential data, it's just more aware of it. And I agree about 'it' being mostly subconscious.


    @Werebudgie: a lot of times being Ni dom (to me) almost feels like having a kid that sometimes comes up to me and tugs me on the sleeve because s/he needs something (yeah, sometimes I need to rely heavily on metaphor too). And I ("I" being 'my consciousness') will actually feel like an annoyed parent, and I have a "What is it now??!?" reaction when I get that feeling. So yeah, the feeling is a lot like you describe- it's like something in my experience matches something in front of me, and I just can't quite figure out what it is right away. But there's always a very distinct difference in me between "this seems legit because a priori" vs. "this seems legit because a posteriori" (a posteriori = experiential value); I can play around with the former and let it go at will, but I find it practically impossible to ignore the feeling of knowing something because of the latter. That one does feel like the kid tugging my sleeve, and it won't leave me alone until I figure out what it's trying to tell me.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #462
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ...a lot of times being Ni dom (to me) almost feels like having a kid that sometimes comes up to me and tugs me on the sleeve because s/he needs something (yeah, sometimes I need to rely heavily on metaphor too). And I ("I" being 'my consciousness') will actually feel like an annoyed parent, and I have a "What is it now??!?" reaction when I get that feeling. So yeah, the feeling is a lot like you describe- it's like something in my experience matches something in front of me, and I just can't quite figure out what it is right away.
    To me Ni-dom is not a kid that comes and goes or that I can send away... It's rather the superego... the internal critic, the internalized parent...when it comes, I cannot rest until I can make it stop "pestering" me...it "drives" me to obsession...

    It's like an auditor/supervisor that never leaves and constantly gazes on the self, i.e. "I"...

    It's stronger than "I"...constantly looking over my shoulder, standing besides me and sometimes by me...sometimes it's suffocating but sometimes empowering...my stubbornness and (self?)righteousness manifest themselves thru my superego...

    And my playfulness thru my ego I guess...

    Perhaps I have an ENFP ego suppressed by my superego...which warps it into an INFJ....?

    Sent via Tapatalk

  3. #463
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    @Werebudgie: a lot of times being Ni dom (to me) almost feels like having a kid that sometimes comes up to me and tugs me on the sleeve because s/he needs something (yeah, sometimes I need to rely heavily on metaphor too). And I ("I" being 'my consciousness') will actually feel like an annoyed parent, and I have a "What is it now??!?" reaction when I get that feeling. So yeah, the feeling is a lot like you describe- it's like something in my experience matches something in front of me, and I just can't quite figure out what it is right away. But there's always a very distinct difference in me between "this seems legit because a priori" vs. "this seems legit because a posteriori" (a posteriori = experiential value); I can play around with the former and let it go at will, but I find it practically impossible to ignore the feeling of knowing something because of the latter. That one does feel like the kid tugging my sleeve, and it won't leave me alone until I figure out what it's trying to tell me.
    This makes sense to me given my own experiences. And something's pinging at the back of my mind when I combine what you wrote above with this other comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think that Ji values/prioritizes the a priori- but introverted perceiving can’t prioritize it without some experiential data to back it up.
    Yeah, something pinging in relation to my interactions with my Fi-dom beloved. Like you, a priori doesn't have much weight or force for me. Any time I go there (or probably more accurately, any time I may appear to go there, I don't know how often I actually do) ... anyway, any time that happens, I'm holding whatever it is extremely lightly. A priori reasoning means almost nothing to me as a mode of describing reality as I perceive it. My INFP and I had a discussion once about how when I say certain things, she orients to them as arguments representing final conclusions/judgements and that becomes "the topic" for her and then I appear to be going "off topic" because I don't stay centered in what she sees as my judgement in the form of an argument. But for me, I'm not actually arguing anything, just messing or appearing to mess with a lightweight little tool for exploring stuff as a starting point.

    (now remembering a very difficult struggle we had last month and thinking that this a priori /Ji versus a posteriori/Pi distinction could yield some really good insight into something that's been really freaking muddy/blurry. When I speak from lightly-held a priori frameworks - or when I appear to be speaking a priori but am doing something else - I think it can cause problems at a pretty deep level between us. I need to reflect on that more but so far wow, what an awesome possible tool for better clarity in communication. *happy dance*)

    And: I'm really grateful for the clarity you keep bringing to my understanding, Z Buck. Outside of the sometimes scarily dysfunctional dynamics of this site, what you bring to these discussions keeps having real-world uses for my self-understanding and also for the real-world INFJ-INFP relationship I'm in. I'm really grateful to you for that. eta: like, clarity-based joy is involved for me.


  4. #464
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,265

    Default

    Please explain how this thread ever became so long.
    Dated mostly infjs. Its complicated. Why though would anyone say its "hands down the best"

    I mean im an entp so im all for shameless self promotion but ya know.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #465
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    1,068

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    It's all relative, and depends on the value judgements. ENTPs might think that you expect too much consideration for areas where they don't believe consideration should be given (and don't expect it as well), but to you, those areas are highly valued, so not receiving consideration in those areas are infringements of the deepest cuts. For example, I can be very persistent in a debate, and come at a person's thoughts/ideas in a very aggressive manner. However, if the person makes a valid point (according to me), I will reinforce it, and give them due credit. However, to them, I've already attacked them, and so, when I respond positively to their valid point, they are either thrown for a loop, that now I'm being "nice" to them, or suspicious of my motives, and not willing to "forgive and forget". While to me, this is not even a consideration, because I really placed no value on our debate determining whether we liked each other/agreed with each other, only whether we had a fruitful discussion about the topic at hand.

    For me, Fs have emotional boundaries, that don't always register with me, as they can be very nuanced or not even something that I think is worth setting up boundaries for (protecting).
    Very well put, for me when feelers start tossing around words like "attacked" and "judged" and I'm like "where the hell did that come from". If you don't want the way you see the world to be challenged and questioned how will you grow as a person, how will you mature, how will you know how to not just feel but think as neither are very useful without the balance of the other. Make a valid point and I will change my direction at the drop of a hat but continuing down some emotional path based on nothing but how you feel about my words or actions without even asking for more information is hard to respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Please explain how this thread ever became so long.
    Dated mostly infjs. Its complicated. Why though would anyone say its "hands down the best"

    I mean im an entp so im all for shameless self promotion but ya know.
    Well, I actually feel like all the I wrote applies but there were so many little aspects I missed. I have read the OP a few times over the years while dating an INFJ and still found it useful. At the time, I was just trying to get more feedback and meet more INFJs but with the YouTube videos, Facebook groups and copious amount of attention these two get (in a dating context) these days I'm guessing it's why so much attention was placed here, it did well in search engines.

    And yeah, "hands down the best" is just foolish but I'm not going to go changing the title to "marginally acceptable" now.

  6. #466
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Very well put, for me when feelers start tossing around words like "attacked" and "judged" and I'm like "where the hell did that come from". If you don't want the way you see the world to be challenged and questioned how will you grow as a person, how will you mature, how will you know how to not just feel but think as neither are very useful without the balance of the other. Make a valid point and I will change my direction at the drop of a hat but continuing down some emotional path based on nothing but how you feel about my words or actions without even asking for more information is hard to respect.
    That's amusingly ironic.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #467
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    1,068

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Very well put, for me when feelers start tossing around words like "attacked" and "judged" and I'm like "where the hell did that come from". If you don't want the way you see the world to be challenged and questioned how will you grow as a person, how will you mature, how will you know how to not just feel but think as neither are very useful without the balance of the other. Make a valid point and I will change my direction at the drop of a hat but continuing down some emotional path based on nothing but how you feel about my words or actions without even asking for more information is hard to respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    That's amusingly ironic.
    As do I (:

  8. #468
    I want my account deleted
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Very well put, for me when feelers start tossing around words like "attacked" and "judged" and I'm like "where the hell did that come from". If you don't want the way you see the world to be challenged and questioned how will you grow as a person, how will you mature, how will you know how to not just feel but think as neither are very useful without the balance of the other. Make a valid point and I will change my direction at the drop of a hat but continuing down some emotional path based on nothing but how you feel about my words or actions without even asking for more information is hard to respect.
    I really think that an understanding of Fe-aux in (some) INFJs might be of some use to this discussion, but I'm wary about this topic on this site and in this thread. That said, I'll try and hope for the best.

    First of all I want to be clear that this is a Ni-dom/Fe-aux dynamic I'm describing here, NOT a Fe-dom dynamic. I think Fe-doms likely have a very very different relationship to Fe.

    That said, consider this in the mix: Fe-aux in me assigns an initial default legitimacy to external values/value judgements. What this means in practice is I am constantly getting a very "loud" influx of externally sourced challenges and questions, to the point of then internalizing these things and using them to question and challenge myself as well. Constantly. Now, also add to the mix that I'm a Ni-dom who lives in a cultural context in which Ni-sourced information is considered anywhere from weird to exotic to insane (and this is clear in the external Fe-legitimated values I encounter), but for me Ni-sourced information is actually extremely accurate as a guide for action in my life. Basically, for me, this setup yields a state of radical, constant, rigorous and extreme questioning and challenging of my organic perception all the time. This (constant, loud, default-legitimized externally-sourced and internalized questions and challenges to my organic perception) is my state of being at some really deep level. Saying that I need more of this for growth is like saying that someone whose diet is too heavy on one food group should get more of that food group to be well and balanced.

    For some people, and this may include some INFJs with different life/growth trajectories and/or different specific uses of the INFJ function stack, there is a need for more externally sourced questions and challenges per your statement. However - in my case, and possibly this is true for at least some other INFJs, my growth trajectory is in the opposite direction - learning to trust the Ni information and find ways to turn down the volume and power of externally sourced questions and challenges to Ni information/my organic perception that come from Fe-aux.

    So I would say, while it sounds great to say that "If you don't want the way you see the world to be challenged and questioned how will you grow as a person, how will you mature, how will you know how to not just feel but think as neither are very useful without the balance of the other" the feeling/thinking (values/logic) dichotomy isn't the only angle on balance, at least not for me. In my case, my growth trajectory is toward centering in my Ni perception (increasingly served by some information flow from Se) and basically allowing that irrational information to be a guide for action despite all the external pushes I experience (pushes that are loud to me because Fe-aux marks as legitimate) saying I should not do that.

    I don't know if or how what I say is relevant for other INFJs, this is my particular trajectory. That said, I've never had difficulty in dialogue with the one confirmed ENTP in my life. We have a really great dialogue flow, she respects my stated boundaries and supports my efforts to shift back into centering in my organic perception, and we have an awesome mutual learning dynamic.

  9. #469
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ... But there's always a very distinct difference in me between "this seems legit because a priori" vs. "this seems legit because a posteriori" (a posteriori = experiential value); I can play around with the former and let it go at will, but I find it practically impossible to ignore the feeling of knowing something because of the latter. That one does feel like the kid tugging my sleeve, and it won't leave me alone until I figure out what it's trying to tell me.
    But isn't what a priori basically entails a "hunch"? An assumption you make without being able to prove why but use as an initial starting point/premise?

    What you say simplifies down to that you can let go of the hunch (conclusion based on intangible or subconscious/metaphysical data) but can't let go of conclusion based on concrete or conscious/physical data...

    Sent via Tapatalk

  10. #470
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Very well put, for me when feelers start tossing around words like "attacked" and "judged" and I'm like "where the hell did that come from". If you don't want the way you see the world to be challenged and questioned how will you grow as a person, how will you mature, how will you know how to not just feel but think as neither are very useful without the balance of the other. Make a valid point and I will change my direction at the drop of a hat but continuing down some emotional path based on nothing but how you feel about my words or actions without even asking for more information is hard to respect.
    It depends on your style of delivery...If you do that for my sake I'll cherish it...but if you do it for yours I'll abhor it...As for the other half, I made a comment about it a couple of pages behind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    And yeah, "hands down the best" is just foolish but I'm not going to go changing the title to "marginally acceptable" now.
    It's an ENTP who can truly understand me, though he can be ass about it sometimes...I hope fate has good things in store for you (and me)...

    Sent via Tapatalk

Similar Threads

  1. [INFJ] INFJ's - What is your job?
    By ASublett in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 07-14-2013, 06:02 PM
  2. [INFJ] An INFJ not sympathizing...is it normal?
    By Black Hole Sun in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-20-2012, 10:45 PM
  3. [INFJ] INFJ and Love - Is not having it an issue that needs fixing?
    By kccrush in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-08-2010, 07:16 AM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ -Your heart is on your sleeve
    By harmonyizmine in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 01-14-2010, 11:46 PM
  5. [ENTP] Who is the best partner in crime for ENTP women?
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 11-28-2009, 09:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO