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  1. #431
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Not all judgements are unfavorable.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Okay, that does it -there has got to be some sort of invisible bat-signal around here somewhere. *peers around with a serious but somewhat befuddled look on face* This is probably only funny to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    That gives me more of a sense of your take on gender/MBTI intersections for sure, thanks for the additional info.

    It's not the same thing at all, and far be it from me to reinforce wrong understandings of lesbian relationships ... but given what you wrote about INFPs, I'm amused to report that of the two of us, if we had to play to those stereotypes, my INFP partner is more butch than I could ever be.

  4. #434
    Senior Member TheCheeseBurgerKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    First off I need to add a caveat, I'm a single ENTP so maybe my intentions are to try and swoon one of you INFJs but what's wrong with that.

    No really (well, additionally), I wrote this to get these thoughts out of my head and thought I would share because there does seem to be some confusion about how these functions work and just what it is to be an introvert or extrovert.

    I will say there has to be a huge level of self awareness on the ENTP side, something I think is rare before 30 and I wouldn't trust a young ENTP myself so a word of caution to any heartbreak that may arise from pursuits of young ENTPs.

    To fully explain this I need to go more in depth on MBTI itself so I'm sorry in advance if you already know this as well as for my inability to be terse. MBTI is not just 8 letters and being an INFJ for example doesn't mean only what the letters say at face value. As an example an ENFJ is not just the extroverted version of the INFJ, they are VERY different. The two middle letters are the main focus each with an extroverted or introverted possibility. So you can have Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi, Se and Si in many different orders. To give an example, Se is very sensory based, an ESFP would lead with this function as their main way (or least energy) of processing the world and making choices. To stereo type, the ESFP is the classic sorority girl who will date a douche bag asshole based only on his looks. In the case of the ESFP this Se function is followed up with Fi which is about internal feelings, when used correctly this translates to a self aware person, when wrong very selfish. Also the reason the ESFP is all about "me" and what is everybody going to do for "me". What a messed up function (Se) to lead with right!

    Now if you move on to a person with a dominant function of Ti such as with an INTP, you have the classic perfectionist engineer with tape on their glasses who doesn't even notice how messed up their hair is. Mainly because they lead Ti, Ne, Si and Fe leaving them with sensortardation (you and I have this as well) because we don't notice surroundings and do stupid things like walk into closed doors or forget we just brushed our teeth and brush them again, this is due to how in our own heads we are, always thinking. So again the INTP totally lacking the Se function would be oblivious to their appearance where as the ESFP would care only about their appearance.

    With that said, the INFJ is Ni, Fe, Ti and lastly Se leaving them with a dominant (or no energy to use) function of Ni that generates endless possibilities in an internal world. This is the reason they can picture things clearly and in such detail when they read (almost as if they're watching a movie in their head), this is why they can be alone in their own mind for long amounts of time and never get bored. With a secondary function of Fe, this is what allows them such an amazing ability to read people and is also what makes them such an enigma, they generate all these possibilities yet follow them up with Fe, a function that's VERY people based. They feel SO amazingly deep because they can visualize what other people feel in an endless world with no boundaries or rules that they haven't given it.

    To move on the ENTP is Ne, Ti, Fe and Si leaving them a dominant function of Ne, so they're as vivid as the INFJ except in the external world, their fantasies are about building things and with any and every thing they look at they wonder how it works and if they can make it better. They follow this up with Ti so they take all these possibilities and filter them with internal thinking. They can look at something very simple, imagine it 500 other ways and quickly think about what would work the best. It also affords them the luxury of being extremely quick witted and good at debates, because they can generate 50 possibilities and figure out what works best before most people can think of one. So if INFJs are the enigma having the Ni function followed by Fe (one being so internal the other being so people driven) ENTPs would be the paradox in that their first two functions are not people based and even though their dominant function is an extroverted one it's the extroverted function that doesn't need other people, leaving them the most introverted of all the extroverts. In fact with INFJs secondary function of Fe they're more extroverted than an ENTP although it doesn't look that way on the surface. Picture the INFJ as water dripping into a bucket, picture the ENTP when the bucket finally tips.

    The ENTP/INFJ dynamic is so amazing because if you look at how we look at the world it's:

    Ni Fe Ti Se
    Ne Ti Fe Si

    What that boils down to is picture a sock and somebody reaching in and pulling it inside out. ENTPs have the same depth INFJs do in a different way, ENTPs are the same as INFJs yet opposed in a way that is more reversed than opposite. The functions line up in a way that leaves both feeling totally understood yet with endless learning possibilities and total balance. They're like mental playgrounds for one another and it never gets old because both worlds are based in endless possibilities. This same dynamic holds true for the ENFP/INTJ.

    Where the four dominant intuitives differer so much from other types (and why this dynamic is so interesting among the ENTP/INFJ) is our satisfaction (or mostly, lack of) in relationships due to our desire for a deep mental connection, both are looking for mind mates and both want the ideal relationship. Overall we (dominant intuitives) have the most consistent moral systems and are most likely to be disappointed if someone falls short of those moral standards. Both are very growth oriented, passionate, deep and unwilling to be in a relationship of routine that gets old and lazy in time. You do not "get", "capture", "confine", "own" or "cage" an ENTP, ENFP, INFJ or INTJ, those are the four types that pick you.

    The issue with the difficulty in starting an ENTP/INFJ relationship isn't limited to one thing. First off, neither is used to being understood so there's this never ending clarification and "know what I'm saying", "if that makes sense" issue. Both are in dismay somebody else understands with such ease. However because we take different paths to the same place we'll ask things like "why'd you do that" just to understand, when explained the other person totally gets it but because we're so used to the same thing happening with a different outcome it preys on our frustration or issues of never feeling understood. Secondly the INFJ is hard to get out of their shell and the ENTP is quick to run back to theirs. The INFJ has this feeling initially that they'll never get the space they want because they see the ENTP extroverting and the ENTP swears you're not interested. The INFJ will have this constant push/pull I want it no I don't issue and have to fight to get the flood gate open. The ENTP will have this run while you still can issue and have a tough time keeping the flood gate from shutting. Both speak truly and honestly but have a tendency to try reading between the lines with the other when there's nothing there to be read. We apply our own motivations to the other persons actions which is never correct (different path to the same place) and this all takes some excellent and very open communication. These issues don't last long however so at least that's a plus. We're both a type that never really lets people in and we're both amazing at reading people so we're faced with an issue of holy shit this is going to hurt if it doesn't work so both need to want love more than the fear of having it. We're both so whole alone but together there's an overlapping of abilities that gives the other a peephole (I read that four times and kept thinking there was a missing p) into a whole different world. I can tell you right off the bat, if I (as an ENTP) had internal issues I was hiding I wouldn't even consider pursuing an INFJ until I had my head on right because I know it would be picked up on instantly.

    There two things I would like to add while I'm thinking about them. I've compared the ENTP and INFJ to opposite sides of the same coin saying we're exactly the same yet totally different.

    I would say the ENTP and INFJ are both the oddity of the MBTI world on the introverted and extroverted side. We don't really fit in anyplace and are the two types that most often feel quirky, misunderstood and like there is no way anybody will every accept much less understand and love how different we are.

    Anyway, what dawned on me is the false low score we often get on our E function. My dominant Ne function is very high yet I will sometimes only score 54% E and on occasion I will test as INTP. This is because depending on the test I will answer all questions like "you feel comfortable in a crowd" with a yes (standard extrovert answer) yet also answer all questions like "you require a lot of alone time" with a yes, standard introvert answer. This conflict is due to leading Ne, an extroverted function that doesn't need people at all.

    By contrast and backing up everything else I've said. INFJs often falsely test as INFPs, because while the ENTP is the most introverted extrovert the INFJ is the least orderly J. With MBTI these are the only two anomalies like this I'm aware of.

    I have never probed enough on this topic to explain why this is the case with INFJs and that J function but I do find it interesting and in line with everything else I've said.

    Also, ENTPs are the slowest to mature and the INFJ is of course the quickest so I think a 5 to 10 year age difference with the ENTP being older is ideal if not essential. The downside for the INFJ maturing so quickly is because you already feel so different and alone (the ENTP does as well but being the extrovert with an over sized ego they haven't noticed it yet and is enjoying still thinking they're better than everybody else) you also don't feel like you fit in with other people your age so by the time the ENTP has matured the INFJ is feeling jaded, frustrated and starting to let go of that ideal picture of love they've always had and can find in the ENTP.

    Damn this was long, sorry, only a saint or INFJ (same thing I guess less the dark humor) would read all of this.

    WOWZERS.



    Also, what you said about Fe, actually sparked a big realization for me.

    Up until I started getting into my twenty (im 21 now LOL) i found that after being around people (sometimes) I would find myself angry at the world, it would make me at like a prick all the time.

    As I start to get older (this is something that i really just started to be conscious of fully about a year ago really) I started to realize which people around me were total douchebags with no good intentions AT ALL. Total selfish narcisists. I didnt know why people were a certain way. Part of me blamed it on myself, as a I would always make excuses for others being assholes. Hell, back then I was an asshole a lot of the time. Id even be a dick to those who treated me best just cause I thought that was okay, not a big deal. Now, i know that this all sounds really gay, and there will probably be 1-3 people on this forum that will give more than a shit about my journey into maturity, but I think that the person who started this thread made a pretty cool point, even if what he said only partially correlates w/what I said. Im sharing this a) because I wanted to and b) because it really strengthens my faith in the mbti theory. To end this long, over sized rant, about a year ago I only began to start to realize all the people I knew who were douche bags. Its funny because they are the people that everyone else always complained about LOL. I just never saw it. I would hang out with some people like I liked them until they either pissed me off or we got into a fight and then wonder what the hell happened. Now, I hang out with people, hear the diaherria that flows from some of their mouths and think, "wow, this dude/dudet is an utter scum bag, fuck that person alot."

    All ties in perfectly with MBTI theory. ExTPs have Fi polar, and their Fe starts to truly develop around age 20.

    Again i say

    WOWZERS

  5. #435
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    For example, I will share a bit of my cumulative Ji judgement of you and this post of yours today. You are still in a bad place emotionally. From a feelings-perspective, I sense much self-justified anger and even a kind of condescending indignation underneath your post. This is consistent with what I have sensed from you over the last several months. However, it feels more dug-in and self-righteous. You feel bolder and more prone to lash-out. You would do well to find an outlet for this, where you can vent some of these old, deeply felt hurts in a physical sense, like ecstatic dancing or martial arts. You will feel stronger for it and clear. The forum however, will not give you any release, even with some new-found protection. Now, because you have chosen to not communicate with me, I can't gather much more data than what I can sense of your inner realm. So, no way to verify or give you something more Ji-meaty. And I would usually not share this since it's not cooked yet. But, in the interest of understanding this stuff better, since Ji is generally invisible to the outer world, I'm putting it out here, there you go. At least I can share this out of the many interactions we have had thus far, therefore potentially increasing accuracy.
    i'm really annoyed when i read this. z is my friend, she's told me that she's requested space from you many times, and that she doesn't know what else to do because you won't seem to honor that. that definitely gives me an added bias, because i don't understand why that boundary can't be respected. that's some legitimate dig-in. i keep thinking, if you really wanted to help, what does not respecting her requested boundary contribute to that? is the desire to change her on behalf of your sense of what the community should believe, and how that process needs to go, not impinging on a basic Fi commitment in some sense? i know i fuck up Fi considerations all the time. i admit that fallibility, and i admit that, while i need to honor my own process, taking responsibility to be accountable to the process of others is the path i want to take. i trust it, when trusting anything is not particularly easy for me. i have a great deal of respect for Fi, and so i want to be clear that my frustration, to me, isn't about Fi as a whole. it's about this particular behavior.

    i don't know too much about the whole story. and i'm not saying the boundary anyone else needs is simply because of who you are. i'm just saying, it's clear that it's needed. it's requested. those facts are what they are.

    i just think "in the interest of understanding this stuff better," and "since Ji is generally invisible to the outer world, I'm putting it out there" is dangerous ground. i understand that you are free to define your actions based on any story you choose, but this is a slippery slope. if others feel a kind of self-dishonesty, they're not going to support your story, especially when it's used to ignore what they've asked for. furthermore, using your own descriptions of something in order to verify that it behaves the way it does, isn't really the open-ended process that is claimed. it's actually a very Je process, and if not seen in that way, probably not a very self-conscious, reflective, mindful version of one. Ti says that how you attempt to falsify counts just as much, and turning your critical perspective on your own assumptions is most relevant, not just trusting what you know can be verified (even if the quality of generalization for that verification has no basis beyond yes, sometimes).

  6. #436
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    I guess, it's in how each of us receive, and perceive, the information. From my perception, I actually find Pi/Je to be more "judgemental" in the sense that their assessments have such an air of finality to it. The difference between Pe/Ji (Out to in) and Pi/Je (In to Out), in terms of a thought thrown out there, is that Pe/Ji seems to say, "It could be....", while Pi/Je, says, "It should be...."

    This is of course not accounting for the influence of other functions, like ENTP's tertiary Fe function, where values, if crossed, certainly turns an "It could be..." to an "It should be...."

    There's also the sense that, even though they may very likely apply the same judgements to themselves, it's kept inside. However, the judgement towards others gets manifested out. So, it can appear, on the outside, that they're able to see the faults in others, but does not seem to find it in themselves.

    ******************

    In general, my issues with INFJ is that they have a tendency to read too much into things, and internalize it, over-think it, play the judge and jury within their minds, and I'm only privy to it, when the sentence is handed out. It can blind-side me. That, added with a deep well of emotions, can make them emotionally volatile and intense at times, which exhausts and frustrates me.

    I prefer ENFJ in this regards, because they're more forthcoming with their thought process, more likely to engage in a dialogue, rather than keep it in until the end. They're better able to communicate their feelings and thoughts, to their audience.
    do you think we expect too much consideration?

    i'm in a conflict right now that could be headed for exactly what you're describing. a few things have added up, with the result that i feel dismissed, and i feel like my needs were ignored. i've certainly struggled to not play the judge and jury, and just really focus on what i need and what my entp friend might be needing too, and just allowing myself to see the conflict clearly without unneeded judgment, but recently i've felt it getting away from me. there's a sense of me that understands that playing by your own rules is generally not the way to best guess what consideration others might need, which i can understand. not feeling like the other person is going to try to respect and take care of what is true for you, however, doesn't really feel like friendship, either. this is maybe the point where difficulty seeing the long-view, and really having a balanced sense of the story, is really challenging for me.

    anyway, i don't know if part of the "finality" that you notice is because we are more likely to aim not just at the facts but at the interpretation. if instead of in a laying out the facts kind of way, we focus on conveying how they fit together. maybe a moral imperative does do too much of the work for us, rather than simply describing what has happened for us.

  7. #437
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i'm really annoyed when i read this. z is my friend, she's told me that she's requested space from you many times, and that she doesn't know what else to do because you won't seem to honor that. that definitely gives me an added bias, because i don't understand why that boundary can't be respected. that's some legitimate dig-in. i keep thinking, if you really wanted to help, what does not respecting her requested boundary contribute to that? is the desire to change her on behalf of your sense of what the community should believe, and how that process needs to go, not impinging on a basic Fi commitment in some sense? i know i fuck up Fi considerations all the time. i admit that fallibility, and i admit that, while i need to honor my own process, taking responsibility to be accountable to the process of others is the path i want to take. i trust it, when trusting anything is not particularly easy for me. i have a great deal of respect for Fi, and so i want to be clear that my frustration, to me, isn't about Fi as a whole. it's about this particular behavior.

    i don't know too much about the whole story. and i'm not saying the boundary anyone else needs is simply because of who you are. i'm just saying, it's clear that it's needed. it's requested. those facts are what they are.

    i just think "in the interest of understanding this stuff better," and "since Ji is generally invisible to the outer world, I'm putting it out there" is dangerous ground. i understand that you are free to define your actions based on any story you choose, but this is a slippery slope. if others feel a kind of self-dishonesty, they're not going to support your story, especially when it's used to ignore what they've asked for. furthermore, using your own descriptions of something in order to verify that it behaves the way it does, isn't really the open-ended process that is claimed. it's actually a very Je process, and if not seen in that way, probably not a very self-conscious, reflective, mindful version of one. Ti says that how you attempt to falsify counts just as much, and turning your critical perspective on your own assumptions is most relevant, not just trusting what you know can be verified (even if the quality of generalization for that verification has no basis beyond yes, sometimes).
    You are correct, you don't know the whole story. And no, you didn't ask me either. But, sure, comment anyway without proper discovery. That seems really fair.

    And yes, I quoted her today, which is actually the very first time I've done it since she asked me not to "talk" to her, and for that, I will apologize. However, I've listened to the passive-aggressive spew on Pe-Ji for long enough, seen enough middle-fingers thrown towards it - her emotional tang is so strong it's impossible to ignore. This crying baby seems in tantrum-mode.

    From my perspective, you should be embarrassed to reduce my legitimate in-process Ji work to some bastardized version of Je. Fi like Ti is a rational process, and in the dominant version shows me quite clearly the slippery slope of JUDGEMENT and what that potentially can lead to. If your Pi shows you inner depths of connected perception, mine shows me the interplay of elements that erupt from the depths of judgement. To suggest I'm not using a "very self-conscious, reflective, mindful version" of my functions is grossly inaccurate here.

    Let me ask you this: if she asks for a boundary yet repeatedly and provocatively crosses the line of it, speaking negatively on the very topics I am now not "permitted" to talk about, what kind of a boundary is that? The forum then becomes her venue and I am locked out, my freedom to speak diminshed. Already you and others swarm in to "protect". Who are you really protecting her from, herself or me?

    I realize your Fe needs more from me to be able to connect with me. I get that. And I do see the effort you are making, and I appreciate that too, although you approach me as though you are educating someone who is dense and almost stupidly unaware of some type of interpersonal dynamic. Which, I might add, I haven't held against you.

    So here's my boundary: ZBuck et al need to stop following my posts and elevating the metaphorical middle-finger to Pe or me. Seems fair, no? Otherwise, the only promise I'll make is to not directly interact with her posts. And at this point, that's now an iron-clad guarantee from this DAY forward.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #438
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well ... I find Je as shallow, inconsistent and ill-informed as you find Pe. It's the germ of an idea I've been mulling over the last month or so. Just as I am attracted to holding the door open (Pe) Pi aux's and dom's are attracted to closing the door shut (Je). I know, I know, all Je types maintain that they are open to being convinced that they are wrong. (Key word convinced, because they seem to always present themselves as Right, that they have received enough information to fully justify a Je position.) Yet, in practice, this can be sketchy, due to a number of factors endemic to humanity - personal self-esteem, ego needs, situational awareness, self-awareness etc etc.

    Judgements don't disappear. They evolve and deepen or are disproved and discarded. They are not articulated because to do so often feels premature, not because they are impermanent, they are simply imprecise, and thus, should be questioned. For example, I will share a bit of my cumulative Ji judgement of you and this post of yours today. You are still in a bad place emotionally. From a feelings-perspective, I sense much self-justified anger and even a kind of condescending indignation underneath your post. This is consistent with what I have sensed from you over the last several months. However, it feels more dug-in and self-righteous. You feel bolder and more prone to lash-out. You would do well to find an outlet for this, where you can vent some of these old, deeply felt hurts in a physical sense, like ecstatic dancing or martial arts. You will feel stronger for it and clear. The forum however, will not give you any release, even with some new-found protection. Now, because you have chosen to not communicate with me, I can't gather much more data than what I can sense of your inner realm. So, no way to verify or give you something more Ji-meaty. And I would usually not share this since it's not cooked yet. But, in the interest of understanding this stuff better, since Ji is generally invisible to the outer world, I'm putting it out here, there you go. At least I can share this out of the many interactions we have had thus far, therefore potentially increasing accuracy.

    So, let's leave that. This kind of stuff feels troubling to share. Possibilities feel ok to share. Judgements demand consequent action, a course, ONE course, be set. Possibilities do not. There's a possibility my judgements are wrong, so better to leave it there then act from presumed certainty.

    To see the coin from both sides, Pe types claim an openness and lack of guile in influencing someone else when in reality they are tailoring each moment to a relatively unforeseen yet kind of palpable end-point existing at least in the near future. Meaning, there's not this conscious ability to see a long-term outcome, but the short-term nudging of reality can lead somewhere that seems or feels correct, like knowing you are on the right road, but with no proof why you might feel that way. Plus, there are judgements and then there are JUDGEMENTS. A capital-letter style Ji JUDGEMENT is near-immovable. So Pe optimizes to end-points with some kind of relatively short-term stability yet holding long-term capital-letter judgements open.

    eta: I've been watching myself to really examine closely how I seek to optimize the moment. It's been fascinating because I constantly monitor other people's inner states to try to optimize them too and help them hold open harmonious interpersonal relations between people. I am more influential than I believed.

    I see the contrast so exquisitely diverging in my adult children. My INTJ daughter is usually planning 5 - 7 years into the future. My ESFP son, there's just today, literally. We've talked about it and he says he literally cannot envision beyond in-the-moment optimizing, geared to how he feels. He can at most look at something a few hours ahead of this moment. I suspect on a continuum, they each hold down one end of that, from super-future-planner to live-in-the-moment optimization. To suggest that he should be held accountable to the same kind of future "knowing" seems rather unfair to me when his wiring does not support this awareness. This is not to say he should not consider his actions and the possible outcomes of that, no! His Ni-inferior leads to all sorts of troubled and speculative doom-and-gloom scenarios. He does well to trust that his in-the-moment optimization and awareness of cause-effect do work well together, and that by focussing on NOW, his strength, some of the other pieces will just fit in quite naturally.

    Now, I also know what's likely to come of some of this post. So, my message for those who are prone to rush to judgment, check them at the door. It's doubtful you have held the doors of your judgements open for as long as I have here.

    eta:



    Agreed. Things burst out and get dealt with, usually very helpful.

    Wow. I wouldn't have seen this if state hadn't quoted it. I have flat out told you that I am ignoring your posts, and asked that- if you must quote me- you not bother addressing me and direct your questions to anyone else since I won't be reading it. I guess now I'm asking publicly as a last resort, since you are so fond of turning any kind of drama you stir up into a public spectacle, maybe this way you will finally hear it. Anything from this point on though, I'm simply going to ask the mods for support in getting you to leave me alone.

    Get help, PB. Seriously. Do whatever it takes to be able to leave me alone.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #439
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Get help. Seriously. Do whatever it takes to be able to leave me alone.
    Yep. You do that. That's all I want you to do.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #440
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    That gives me more of a sense of your take on gender/MBTI intersections for sure, thanks for the additional info.

    It's not the same thing at all, and far be it from me to reinforce wrong understandings of lesbian relationships ... but given what you wrote about INFPs, I'm amused to report that of the two of us, if we had to play to those stereotypes, my INFP partner is more butch than I could ever be.
    I would call it the Fi versus the Fe but as I mentioned we all have male and female aspects to us and even in male/female dynamics the male isn't always the "butch". I can think of two male INFJs that made me think "shit, I really wish I liked guys", I would call them more "feminine" from a society perspective but I don't feel that's the proper way of expressing it. In fact, one of them I would classify as very much so all that embodies a man though he's "softer" in feel and approach, not overpowering, essentially you can see the Fe in his actions. I'm mentioning this to further highlight or give some context to gender bias playing a roll in MBTI development.

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