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  1. #411
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    Bolded, correct. Ne perceives the information, Ti analyses the information, finding inconsistencies, gaps, contradictions, etc.

    I've never heard introverted functions (all lumped as one, the perceiving functions, as well as, the judging functions) to be reservoirs of information.

    Functions are tools. None of them keep information. That's one's memory, not the functions.
    Perhaps all of them are just different manifestations\methods of information storage, recall and memorization...?
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-18-2014 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Blue added

  2. #412
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    I guess, it's in how each of us receive, and perceive, the information. From my perception, I actually find Pi/Je to be more "judgemental" in the sense that their assessments have such an air of finality to it. The difference between Pe/Ji (Out to in) and Pi/Je (In to Out), in terms of a thought thrown out there, is that Pe/Ji seems to say, "It could be....", while Pi/Je, says, "It should be...."

    This is of course not accounting for the influence of other functions, like ENTP's tertiary Fe function, where values, if crossed, certainly turns an "It could be..." to an "It should be...."

    There's also the sense that, even though they may very likely apply the same judgements to themselves, it's kept inside. However, the judgement towards others gets manifested out. So, it can appear, on the outside, that they're able to see the faults in others, but does not seem to find it in themselves.

    ******************

    In general, my issues with INFJ is that they have a tendency to read too much into things, and internalize it, over-think it, play the judge and jury within their minds, and I'm only privy to it, when the sentence is handed out. It can blind-side me. That, added with a deep well of emotions, can make them emotionally volatile and intense at times, which exhausts and frustrates me.

    I prefer ENFJ in this regards, because they're more forthcoming with their thought process, more likely to engage in a dialogue, rather than keep it in until the end. They're better able to communicate their feelings and thoughts, to their audience.
    Yes I am much harsher when it comes to myself and "relatively" more lenient towards others...

    I have this ENTP friend...Sometimes he ties my hands in that I cannot check my Ni-Ti deductions (loops) about him with him out of fear that he'll get offended, or he'll try to retaliate, or he'll get stubborn and act against it cause he'll feel dictated\subjugated, or he'll try to mislead cause he fears being read into... In that case, the Ni-Ti deduction cannot get dispersed...

    The only way to break the Ni-Ti loop is thru external invalidating feedback... How does this mechanism play out for ENTPs who have been in relationships with INFJs? Does being doubted and\or questioned make ENTPs feel angry, sad, irritated, fearful, X, Y, Z...?

    As for being judgmental, I've seen how judgmental he can be when he wants to...It's just that they are kept inside unless absolutely necessary...At those times I guess his INTJ shadow manifests itself (and Ti gets turned upside-down and whatever's stored inside the Ti gets poured out thru Te)...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-18-2014 at 11:27 AM. Reason: Blue added

  3. #413
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [With the disclaimer that I'm not reading many of the new posts here- I'm just responding to something I saw in yeghor's post.]


    Honestly @yeghor, I don’t think the introverted judgment in Ne/Se dom/aux “contains” much of anything- I think that’s an introverted perception thing, to “contain” previous assessments for reference/comparison. Introverted judgment is a means of assessing what's *right there*- and imo, Ne/Se dom/aux can be super judgmental (in the sense of having a strong negative opinion, or any really strong opinion)- but it’s often fleeting because they don’t have introverted perception to hold on to those assessments.

    While many NPs seem to find some kind of absolution in the way the judgments quickly disappear- as if Pe dom/aux judgment is harmless because it’s so fleeting, and “it’s not even a ‘judgment’ so much as a ‘possibility’” (so they should be able to spew as much of it aloud as they see fit without there being any consequences)- assessments expressed aloud are still assessments expressed aloud, regardless of how fleeting they are. While it’s true that a single assessment may not last- the tendency to spew these fleeting assessments, when paired with an inflated sense of entitlement to directing the reality between oneself and others, is not fleeting and can be emotionally abusive in excess (no matter how much they try to get rid of the problem by throwing yet more fleeting assessments at it....because it's the tendency to compulsively throw fleeting assessments around to control shared reality in the first place which is the problem).

    But anyway, if introverted judgment “contained” anything, then Pe doms/auxes would be more consistent.
    Well ... I find Je as shallow, inconsistent and ill-informed as you find Pe. It's the germ of an idea I've been mulling over the last month or so. Just as I am attracted to holding the door open (Pe) Pi aux's and dom's are attracted to closing the door shut (Je). I know, I know, all Je types maintain that they are open to being convinced that they are wrong. (Key word convinced, because they seem to always present themselves as Right, that they have received enough information to fully justify a Je position.) Yet, in practice, this can be sketchy, due to a number of factors endemic to humanity - personal self-esteem, ego needs, situational awareness, self-awareness etc etc.

    Judgements don't disappear. They evolve and deepen or are disproved and discarded. They are not articulated because to do so often feels premature, not because they are impermanent, they are simply imprecise, and thus, should be questioned. For example, I will share a bit of my cumulative Ji judgement of you and this post of yours today. You are still in a bad place emotionally. From a feelings-perspective, I sense much self-justified anger and even a kind of condescending indignation underneath your post. This is consistent with what I have sensed from you over the last several months. However, it feels more dug-in and self-righteous. You feel bolder and more prone to lash-out. You would do well to find an outlet for this, where you can vent some of these old, deeply felt hurts in a physical sense, like ecstatic dancing or martial arts. You will feel stronger for it and clear. The forum however, will not give you any release, even with some new-found protection. Now, because you have chosen to not communicate with me, I can't gather much more data than what I can sense of your inner realm. So, no way to verify or give you something more Ji-meaty. And I would usually not share this since it's not cooked yet. But, in the interest of understanding this stuff better, since Ji is generally invisible to the outer world, I'm putting it out here, there you go. At least I can share this out of the many interactions we have had thus far, therefore potentially increasing accuracy.

    So, let's leave that. This kind of stuff feels troubling to share. Possibilities feel ok to share. Judgements demand consequent action, a course, ONE course, be set. Possibilities do not. There's a possibility my judgements are wrong, so better to leave it there then act from presumed certainty.

    To see the coin from both sides, Pe types claim an openness and lack of guile in influencing someone else when in reality they are tailoring each moment to a relatively unforeseen yet kind of palpable end-point existing at least in the near future. Meaning, there's not this conscious ability to see a long-term outcome, but the short-term nudging of reality can lead somewhere that seems or feels correct, like knowing you are on the right road, but with no proof why you might feel that way. Plus, there are judgements and then there are JUDGEMENTS. A capital-letter style Ji JUDGEMENT is near-immovable. So Pe optimizes to end-points with some kind of relatively short-term stability yet holding long-term capital-letter judgements open.

    eta: I've been watching myself to really examine closely how I seek to optimize the moment. It's been fascinating because I constantly monitor other people's inner states to try to optimize them too and help them hold open harmonious interpersonal relations between people. I am more influential than I believed.

    I see the contrast so exquisitely diverging in my adult children. My INTJ daughter is usually planning 5 - 7 years into the future. My ESFP son, there's just today, literally. We've talked about it and he says he literally cannot envision beyond in-the-moment optimizing, geared to how he feels. He can at most look at something a few hours ahead of this moment. I suspect on a continuum, they each hold down one end of that, from super-future-planner to live-in-the-moment optimization. To suggest that he should be held accountable to the same kind of future "knowing" seems rather unfair to me when his wiring does not support this awareness. This is not to say he should not consider his actions and the possible outcomes of that, no! His Ni-inferior leads to all sorts of troubled and speculative doom-and-gloom scenarios. He does well to trust that his in-the-moment optimization and awareness of cause-effect do work well together, and that by focussing on NOW, his strength, some of the other pieces will just fit in quite naturally.

    Now, I also know what's likely to come of some of this post. So, my message for those who are prone to rush to judgment, check them at the door. It's doubtful you have held the doors of your judgements open for as long as I have here.

    eta:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    I prefer ENFJ in this regards, because they're more forthcoming with their thought process, more likely to engage in a dialogue, rather than keep it in until the end. They're better able to communicate their feelings and thoughts, to their audience.
    Agreed. Things burst out and get dealt with, usually very helpful.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #414
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Perhaps all of them are just different manifestations\methods of information storage, recall and memorization...?
    You might want to read this
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1820206
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #415
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    @phobik what if they are wrong?

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  6. #416
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well ... I find Je as shallow, inconsistent and ill-informed as you find Pe. It's the germ of an idea I've been mulling over the last month or so. Just as I am attracted to holding the door open (Pe) Pi aux's and dom's are attracted to closing the door shut (Je). I know, I know, all Je types maintain that they are open to being convinced that they are wrong. (Key word convinced, because they seem to always present themselves as Right, that they have received enough information to fully justify a Je position.) Yet, in practice, this can be sketchy, due to a number of factors endemic to humanity - personal self-esteem, ego needs, situational awareness, self-awareness etc etc.

    Judgements don't disappear. They evolve and deepen or are disproved and discarded. They are not articulated because to do so often feels premature, not because they are impermanent, they are simply imprecise, and thus, should be questioned. For example, I will share a bit of my cumulative Ji judgement of you and this post of yours today. You are still in a bad place emotionally. From a feelings-perspective, I sense much self-justified anger and even a kind of condescending indignation underneath your post. This is consistent with what I have sensed from you over the last several months. However, it feels more dug-in and self-righteous. You feel bolder and more prone to lash-out. You would do well to find an outlet for this, where you can vent some of these old, deeply felt hurts in a physical sense, like ecstatic dancing or martial arts. You will feel stronger for it and clear. The forum however, will not give you any release, even with some new-found protection. Now, because you have chosen to not communicate with me, I can't gather much more data than what I can sense of your inner realm. So, no way to verify or give you something more Ji-meaty. And I would usually not share this since it's not cooked yet. But, in the interest of understanding this stuff better, since Ji is generally invisible to the outer world, I'm putting it out here, there you go. At least I can share this out of the many interactions we have had thus far, therefore potentially increasing accuracy.

    So, let's leave that. This kind of stuff feels troubling to share. Possibilities feel ok to share. Judgements demand consequent action, a course, ONE course, be set. Possibilities do not. There's a possibility my judgements are wrong, so better to leave it there then act from presumed certainty.

    To see the coin from both sides, Pe types claim an openness and lack of guile in influencing someone else when in reality they are tailoring each moment to a relatively unforeseen yet kind of palpable end-point existing at least in the near future. Meaning, there's not this conscious ability to see a long-term outcome, but the short-term nudging of reality can lead somewhere that seems or feels correct, like knowing you are on the right road, but with no proof why you might feel that way. Plus, there are judgements and then there are JUDGEMENTS. A capital-letter style Ji JUDGEMENT is near-immovable. So Pe optimizes to end-points with some kind of relatively short-term stability yet holding long-term capital-letter judgements open.

    eta: I've been watching myself to really examine closely how I seek to optimize the moment. It's been fascinating because I constantly monitor other people's inner states to try to optimize them too and help them hold open harmonious interpersonal relations between people. I am more influential than I believed.

    I see the contrast so exquisitely diverging in my adult children. My INTJ daughter is usually planning 5 - 7 years into the future. My ESFP son, there's just today, literally. We've talked about it and he says he literally cannot envision beyond in-the-moment optimizing, geared to how he feels. He can at most look at something a few hours ahead of this moment. I suspect on a continuum, they each hold down one end of that, from super-future-planner to live-in-the-moment optimization. To suggest that he should be held accountable to the same kind of future "knowing" seems rather unfair to me when his wiring does not support this awareness. This is not to say he should not consider his actions and the possible outcomes of that, no! His Ni-inferior leads to all sorts of troubled and speculative doom-and-gloom scenarios. He does well to trust that his in-the-moment optimization and awareness of cause-effect do work well together, and that by focussing on NOW, his strength, some of the other pieces will just fit in quite naturally.

    Now, I also know what's likely to come of some of this post. So, my message for those who are prone to rush to judgment, check them at the door. It's doubtful you have held the doors of your judgements open for as long as I have here.

    eta:



    Agreed. Things burst out and get dealt with, usually very helpful.
    A very judgmental post... Though sometimes a spade is just a spade... no more no less...

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  7. #417
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    @phobik what if they are wrong?

    Sent from my GT-I9190 using Tapatalk
    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/conspiracy-keanu
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    @Werebudgie I will put more thought into your experience with this. There's a speaker and a receiver and clearly the issue stems from an inefficiency in conveying the information from one to the other. I tend to feel it's the job of the person getting the information to ask for clarification as the other option would result in needless over-clarification more often than not.
    I tend to agree with you on this clarification point. For me, asking for clarification is really useful for understanding other people. Also, using their words directly when responding to them rather than paraphrasing helps me a lot (easier in the written than verbal of course). I tend to ask for clarification a LOT more than my partner does. She tells me I put a lot of energy into understanding her via asking questions (including but not limited to clarification questions).

    But here's the thing about assigning responsibility for asking clarification questions. There may be some variation in what/how/how much different people feel comfortable asking things. I'm really comfortable asking even supposedly "stupid" questions about meaning, partly because of my experience as a qualitative researcher and partly because of other things about me. As for my partner, it's complicated, but I think she feels like asking too many or certain kinds of questions would be imposing, and wants to allow the other person to decide what to tell her, as a matter of respect.

    So I guess I feel like there's some sort of good flow of communication (related to meaning, clarification etc) in any relationship or group, and there's probably some variation in what really is best given the people involved and where they're coming from. IMO finding that flow is part of learning each other (and/or learning the existing group culture if entering into it from outside).

    added note: One thing with me is I have to be very thoughtful about asking questions, because I could easily spend all of my time and energy asking more and more questions of people, unfolding all sorts of things about their experiences and perspectives and my life would be like one huge never-ending qualitative interview with everyone I come into contact with. So I take great care in when and of whom I ask questions.

    “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?” - Rumi (wannabe namaste yogis have made me despise quoting him but it fits)
    Quoted mostly because I agree 100% with you about wannabe namaste yogis! I remember loving Rumi when I read his stuff years ago, and have been kind of irritated by the whole wannabe namaste bullshit people being so into him. Anyway, as for the quote itself, that's a complicated topic for someone with Ni-dom/Fe-aux and given what I've seen of the poor track record of this site for discussing that dynamic, plus the context of this thread itself, I'll leave it at that.

    I think a good way of addressing this when you identify the issue is to respond to things with something like "so what I'm hearing you say is" which will allow the people to pinpoint misunderstandings and better learn their partner as well as how differently things can be expressed.
    If you're talking about paraphrasing (using different words to check to see meaning), I'm of two minds about it in my case. It can work if the paraphraser is really truly focused on understanding and does their due diligence in understanding rather than immediately going off to "what does this mean to me?" without focusing on the goal of understanding. But it can also be a problem when the paraphraser has a framework they're (usually semi-invisibly) filtering everything through that distorts the meaning. It may not be a big deal for some people when that happens, but it is a big deal for me because I find it exhausting to deal with those filters, and I can run out of energy pretty quickly.

    My experience on this is that it's a T/F issue with the F changing the meaning or words of how something made them feel to what was actually said. I have noticed it time and time again where I say something and my wording is changed to and quoted as what they felt not what I said. I had a close INFJ friend once tell me 50% of what my Ni tells me is total trash which is why I needed to develop my Ti, to help me better sort out what to keep and what to toss out. Underdeveloped INFJs feel to just roll with whatever their Ni/Fe spits out in the same way ENTPs do with their Ne/Ti.
    IMO this is way too charged a topic to delve into on this particular site. Too bad, but ... yeah, too charged for this site IMO.

    As for your relationship dynamic, that may be different, I think there's an INFJ/INTJ lesbian couple on here someplace as well. I would guess it would be a better fit with you both being women though honestly maybe it's pretty much the same as being with an INFP man (: After all, in response to an INFx inquiring about dating another INFx on here (they were a male/female couple) I gave some insight, paused and said "so basically just treat is like a lesbian relationship" or something along those lines.
    I'm pretty clueless about what gender means to you in your assessments of relationship dynamics in the above comments. Is it interesting/useful for you to expand on this (gender/type issues) for your own learning process? If so, please do.

    You sound like you're on the right path with each other so keep up the exploring, it's awesome to see you two putting effort into understanding each other. I'm sure the gender does help honestly as I think more about it, I just got off the phone with an INFJ male whom I get along with very well, if I were to date men I think I would choose an INFJ male above any other type while I fail to even view INFJ females as a possibility anymore.
    Wow, that's a pretty amazing juxtaposition IMO! On one side, you'd choose an INFJ male over any other type if you were to date men, while on the other side INFJ females aren't even a possibility for you. What do you think makes the difference for you?

  9. #419
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    A very judgmental post... Though sometimes a spade is just a spade... no more no less...


    OF COURSE it's a judgmental post! Is that not patently obvious? I am admitting that I construct intricate and MASSIVE judgements about people! My primary lens is JUDGEMENT. My Ji is as deep and complex as you perceive your Pi to be. That snippet above is but a tiny fraction of conclusions I could share. Some about you too, interested? Some more supported with feeling-data and Si facts than others, yet all being refined and refined over time with more Pe, more Pe. Why do you think I advocate Ji peeps hold it open? It is practically imperative.

    Yet, and here's the big but - underpinning all of that, I hold open that we are all human, we are all broken somehow, we are all healing in some way and growing in other ways. You would presume to think I see myself as more than you or ZBuck or anyone else reading that and thinking myself better. But I don't. I simply see myself as EQUALLY human and fragile and broken and the best thing we can all do in this world is acknowledge the pain we feel in another human being and reach out to try to help heal it.

    You have utterly missed the point my friend. And in this venue, I have nearly run out of options to communicate more effectively.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #420
    I want my account deleted
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    I can't say I didn't see this latest thread development coming. From like a million miles away. Sometimes I'd like the world to surprise me by not being so predictable. On the up side, I can have fun with emoticons for a moment:


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