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  1. #371
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    As I was thinking through all the people I hoped would know my post did not reflect on my assumptions about them, I realized they were all NTP women. I guess that little boost of corpus callosum plasticity makes all the difference. So, yeah, I'd date a NTP chick.


    I've noticed a definite difference between myself (and other female ENTPs) and ENTP guys.
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  2. #372
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think an ENTP guy might be too spontaneous for me. I know it's supposed to be a great thing, but unless it's a small (inexpensive) gift I really don't like surprises.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #373
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post

    The only other thing I want to add is that ENTPs are probing, inquisitive creatures, we like knowing how things work, we like poking around and testing limits and finding the limits and pushing on them. This serves us well in life, this allows us to have a short learning curve, this allows insights and perspectives that are often unique. I do not however think this bodes well with INFJs, I think it's taxing for them and requires a level of exposure uncomfortable for most. INFJs have a hard time articulating their thoughts and they keep a lot to themselves. I'm sure the constant ENTP curiosity and desire to figure them out is both exciting and scary as shit but ultimately extremely taxing. This could just be me and how I work as an ENTP. I can see how this dynamic seems like it would be amazing and has an addictive quality.
    ^This is what I loved most about being with an ENTP. I loved having such in-depth conversations about all sorts of topics, including the relationship itself. This is the sort of interaction that fed my own intellectual curiosity, but my soul as well, and was incredibly addictive. I would definitely seek this in my next relationship because it is energizing to me, not taxing, but that is just me. I would also think that my instinctual stacking of sx (with strong so) would explain part of that.

    I think where the dynamic fell apart was the e7 propensity of my ENTP ex and his constant avoidance of very serious matters and always looking at possibilities, while I could literally feel critical time passing and his in-action was tearing me apart. And eventually it tore us apart.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  4. #374
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    I really agree with all the @the state i am in says but I think he is a male if I'm not mistaken and I find that I connect to and relate with male INFJs far better than I do with females. Maybe a result of societal gender stereotypes reenforcing the negative qualities of both female INFJs and male ENTPs.

    It is also wise to further look at the Enneagram 7 (common for ENTPs) flaws which are avoidance or more specifically anxiety and the desire to escape it via avoidance.

    @fia I find it curious that you view ENTPs as judgmental as function wise the ENTP and ENFP would be the very least judgmental of all the MBTI types. I have never met one I felt this way about, I could tell any of the ENPs I know pretty much anything with zero fear of judgment. It has been my experience that INFJs that aren't comfortable with themselves will view us that way due to a tendency to add emotions relating to their perception to statements. A made up example:

    ENTP - You're skinny. (nothing more than a statement of their perception, neither good nor bad)

    INFJ - What are you saying?

    ENTP - That you're skinny.


    The INFJ will then take the statement and depending on how they perceive themselves assume anything from the ENTP judging how much they eat to them saying they have an eating disorder.

    To actually quote a real life INFJ example like I'm talking about from a few days ago I will quote the actual text conversation:


    INFJ - I'm an INFJ

    Me - I figured you were an INFJ, interesting to find an INFJ with blank (blank used in place of a more personal detail that isn't germane to this context).

    INFJ- Why is an INFJ with blank strange? And what's your type?

    Me - Now see what you did there, I said "interesting" and you converted it to "strange".

    INFJ - You're right I did.

    INFJ - I wonder why I converted "interesting" to "strange"... Maybe I read into your observation and subconsciously attached a negative connotation to the word "interesting".


    And in my humble opinion there is the crux of the ENTP/INFJ issues though not an entirely inclusive summary.

    I'm not doubting that you felt judged fia, simply saying that feeling judged does not a judgement make.

  5. #375
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I think that's what Ne-doms do to get to know the real self of other people consciously or unconsciously... Throw a judgment at the other (and I think in that case it's coming either from Ti-aux or Fi-aux and Ne-dom propels it outwards) and then gather and internalize their reaction thru Ne-dom and then analyze it thru either Fi or Ti-aux...

    So Ti-aux and Fi-aux is giving the ammo\particle and Ne is shooting it at the other... Then Ne records the sparks the particle created in the other and Ti-aux or Fi-aux interprets the sparks to find out the "true" material of the other...

    You are interpreting other people's reaction to any stimulus\judgment you send in their way...that's how you test their mettle...
    Last edited by yeghor; 03-16-2014 at 06:06 AM. Reason: Blue added

  6. #376
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    It is also wise to further look at the Enneagram 7 (common for ENTPs) flaws which are avoidance or more specifically anxiety and the desire to escape it via avoidance.
    Agreed.

    To actually quote a real life INFJ example like I'm talking about from a few days ago I will quote the actual text conversation:

    INFJ - I'm an INFJ

    Me - I figured you were an INFJ, interesting to find an INFJ with blank (blank used in place of a more personal detail that isn't germane to this context).

    INFJ- Why is an INFJ with blank strange? And what's your type?

    Me - Now see what you did there, I said "interesting" and you converted it to "strange".

    INFJ - You're right I did.

    INFJ - I wonder why I converted "interesting" to "strange"... Maybe I read into your observation and subconsciously attached a negative connotation to the word "interesting".


    And in my humble opinion there is the crux of the ENTP/INFJ issues though not an entirely inclusive summary.

    I'm not doubting that you felt judged fia, simply saying that feeling judged does not a judgement make.
    It's a good example. @bolded is certainly part of the issue communicating with INFJ's for me too and part of the "walking on eggshells" effect. In a conversation with someone who does hang on each word, I find myself feeling scrutinized and that uncomfortable feeling flusters me as I realize that just the very act of trying to speak can be used as judgement against me. Every word seems analyzed for purpose. Not every type uses words with purpose, to influence another person or even the world. (I can't think that far ahead, myself. It's hard enough just to get something out!) Which is why:

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think that's what Ne-doms do to get to know the real self of other people consciously or unconsciously... Throw a judgment at the other (and I think in that case it's coming either from Ti-aux or Fi-aux and Ne-dom propels it outwards) and then gather and internalize their reaction thru Ne-dom and then analyze it thru either Fi or Ti-aux...

    So Ti-aux and Fi-aux is giving the ammo\particle and Ne is shooting it at the other... Then Ne records the sparks the particle created in the other and Ti-aux or Fi-aux interprets the sparks to find out the "true" material of the other...

    You are interpreting other people's reaction to any stimulus\judgment you send in their way...that's how you test their mettle...
    ... this post does not resonate well with my sense-perceptions in the world. Ne-doms aren't the way they are to test people, to "test their mettle". Oh sure, I agree that ENP's can certainly appear to be button-pushers, but this does not originate from a place of judgement, not from the perspective I read and feel the patterns between people. I often think they are perplexed by their Ne being perceived as judgement, because to an Ne-dom, there's not this firm cause-effect connection between their actions and the reactions of others, they only learn over time that "action X can create reaction Y with person A but not person B". They realize that their natural actions create reactions, and this accretes over time to form the Si repository of people-data.

    I think it is only as ENP's mature that they realize the more 360° extent of how they affect others, especially from the negative angles, and thus seek to have learned from the past and manage more of their natural impulses. Again, they have Si. They have a memory bank which needs to be filled with data before new expressions of themselves in the world come to be. And it's Si-inferior, so much harder to grasp onto to, much repeating takes place to lay this foundation. ENP's seem to me to carry this sense of wonder in the world, and this I think is from that sense of not feeling heavily yoked to the past.

    ENTP's are certainly apt to push a different button set that simply annoys me but really disturbs INFJ's and I watch ENFP's appeal to INTJ's in a similar fashion. So, I know that each is aware of their charms, their sphere of influence. It's not that they don't know they have an affect on others. I'm not saying they are innocent all the time either. I simply think you should divorce it from the intention of doing it to find out "true material" about the other. That's kind of a misinterpretation of their wiring.

    eta: it always feel like in the moment influence, short-term affect. No long-term plan. Not much plan at all really.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    this sense of purpose, a sense of what feels beautiful for us, is a big part of how we embody our judgment, a big way we emotionally commit to something. without that, everything is just a possibility, and it's really difficult to feel anchored in that when you don't get a sense that this other person is actually in contact with their own ability to know what is true for them emotionally, value-wise, what deserves some protection from simply being "tested" and won't be objectified into smaller pieces and ultimately torn apart.
    protect something which is true from being tested.... and getting confirmed? protecting "the truth" from finding proof or evidence that its actually true? unless you are suffering from the completely invented disease of affirmationphobia, then no - people (and living things in general) don't protect things out of the the confidence there is nothing that could threaten them, they protect that which they feel is threatened. if you feel the need to protect "the truth" from being tested, that's not because you know its true, its because you fear it isn't.

    ...and that's called lying.

    seriously, you are embellishing the act of describing things to be more emotionally appealing then they actually are and maintaining the appearance that that its accurate through forcefully choosing to dodge any potential evidence to the contrary. its lying with a non-liability disclaimer. at best enabling you to potentially argue that it can't be lying if it is done out of ignorance without knowing otherwise, but the moment you choose to forcefully maintain that ignorance and tell reality and everyone in it to fuck itself, then that's choice's consequences are your own damn responsibility and its no longer a workable excuse. you are using the word "the truth" while in practice breaking down and describing the act of lying to yourself to an incredible accuracy.

  8. #378
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    @fia I find it curious that you view ENTPs as judgmental as function wise the ENTP and ENFP would be the very least judgmental of all the MBTI types. I have never met one I felt this way about, I could tell any of the ENPs I know pretty much anything with zero fear of judgment. It has been my experience that INFJs that aren't comfortable with themselves will view us that way due to a tendency to add emotions relating to their perception to statements. A made up example:

    ...
    I'm not doubting that you felt judged fia, simply saying that feeling judged does not a judgement make.
    I don't typically think that any of my experiences represent universal truth, so yeah, that post is subjective and I don't mean to project it. I've had a couple be quite convinced that I'm guilty of all of their ex-girlfriend's sins, so yeah, they were definitely judging me extremely harshly. There was zero grey area going on in those two instances, but I don't think either were that strongly using Ne. It was mostly a Ti-Si kinda situation.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #379
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #380
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ...Not every type uses words with purpose, to influence another person or even the world. (I can't think that far ahead, myself. It's hard enough just to get something out!)...
    That would render any dialogue meaningless... a dialogue is a transaction ... otherwise it turns into a monologue ... if you don't expect something from someone or the interaction, why bother with it in the first place? What's the driving force then?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    .. this post does not resonate well with my sense-perceptions in the world. Ne-doms aren't the way they are to test people, to "test their mettle". Oh sure, I agree that ENP's can certainly appear to be button-pushers, but this does not originate from a place of judgement, not from the perspective I read and feel the patterns between people. I often think they are perplexed by their Ne being perceived as judgement, because to an Ne-dom, there's not this firm cause-effect connection between their actions and the reactions of others, they only learn over time that "action X can create reaction Y with person A but not person B". They realize that their natural actions create reactions, and this accretes over time to form the Si repository of people-data.
    They do categorize and classify people based on their Ne deductions...that's judgment...everyone does it...some are more outspoken about it...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think it is only as ENP's mature that they realize the more 360° extent of how they affect others, especially from the negative angles, and thus seek to have learned from the past and manage more of their natural impulses. Again, they have Si. They have a memory bank which needs to be filled with data before new expressions of themselves in the world come to be. And it's Si-inferior, so much harder to grasp onto to, much repeating takes place to lay this foundation. ENP's seem to me to carry this sense of wonder in the world, and this I think is from that sense of not feeling heavily yoked to the past.
    Or an escape from bad memories...Nice point about Si though...My ENTP friend seems to forget who I really am sometimes...as if he doesn't have this long-term static/stable image of me...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ENTP's are certainly apt to push a different button set that simply annoys me but really disturbs INFJ's and I watch ENFP's appeal to INTJ's in a similar fashion. So, I know that each is aware of their charms, their sphere of influence. It's not that they don't know they have an affect on others. I'm not saying they are innocent all the time either. I simply think you should divorce it from the intention of doing it to find out "true material" about the other. That's kind of a misinterpretation of their wiring.
    It's what the dominant function do for all of us...make sense of the world...The thing between ENTPs and INFJs maybe due to that they can understand where the other comes from and wants to achieve but detest the means employed...

    Check this clip to see how an Ne-dom can throw judgments around


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