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  1. #361
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    I haven't had the heart nor the time to update this post and I need to. I would actually love to do so with an INFJ that's been in a relationship with an ENTP and has a contrasting perspective to contribute. With that said, I can add that I will never again date an INFJ, I don't personally find it to be a life affirming dynamic. I do think it serves a purpose and has the potential to accelerate growth on both sides but I wouldn't want it long term.

    MBTI really shouldn't be brought into play in terms of partner selection, my having done so for so long was nothing short of an egregious mistake fueled by a desperate desire to feel understood. The reality is that I needed to make changes within and be more true to myself not cling to hope that the right MBTI type would be a magical fix.

    I'm not saying ENTP and INFJ can't work, simply that I think it's a highly problematic pairing fraught with misunderstandings, communication issues and a major problems when it comes to the secondary Ti/Fe these two use.

    If you're an INFJ with input and would like to put some effort into writing a follow up to this I would love to talk more and see if we can come up with something productive for others trying this dynamic out.

  2. #362
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    all relationships have trade-offs. none are easy, and none are impossible. if the expectations are primarily based on getting something outside of you that will save you from yourself, there's always a shelf-life to it (because it simply won't always be the object that fulfills this need). if it's being in a situation where you don't need to change as much, and that you can feel like you're already somewhat finished, so to speak, then focusing on someone with more similarity works better. sometimes we need different types of stability and different types of dynamic, change catalysts. saying one is better than the other is only even a meaningful statement in terms of some sense of ends, some sense of overarching purpose (unless it's for you, given your situation, where those things can be fully felt, and after your needs have realistically been assessed). and even then, it's still mostly a guess, because we are dealing with such complex interactions, and because regardless, we can find a way to do the work that will fulfill us in any situation if we really commit to staying connected to ourselves in this kind of spiritual way. kind of like every path is valid and offers some unique opportunities. relationships that are idealized in a way that take us away from this sense of work required for us to grow into our fulfillment, are generally set up to fail.

    having a desperate desire to feel understood is a huge motivation, but if that's the desire, a lot of times there's a kind of trap in thinking that that objective must be what we need. it also could mean we need to let go of some of our continued attempts to fully understand ourselves (fellow head type, i truly relate to this), and instead focus on empathizing with ourselves more fully so that we can simply accept ourselves as we are, rather than understand all the reasons why, why, why. sometimes even a failed relationship with someone else can help point us where we need to go. maybe if less understanding was felt to be needed, and more empathy with oneself was given, it might be easier to ask for what you really need, more directly. for me, many times, even just recognizing what i really need changes the importance and the dug-in ness of it. and almost all of the time, my desire to be understood is to REALLY to have someone be able to give me what i need without me having to even know it myself, without me having to recognize that i am not just a mind, but a heart and a body that also are greatly impacting what is true for me in any given moment. to face those other aspects of ourselves is humbling, when we haven't given them the attention they need.

    i also don't mean to undermine your experience in your relationship. i don't know anything about it. i just know that when we're stuck in right/wrong mode, we are generally focusing less on seeing what is really true for us, what it is like when we really practice being with ourselves fully, being present with our needs, being in touch with the vulnerabilities that drive our perspectives, the way the various parts of ourselves orient in the ongoing conversations that they have when creating our experience of reality.

    finally, fwiw, my own relationship with an entp was very fulfilling. i don't even know if it's fair to say that "it didn't work out." it was worth it, i am very grateful for it, and she and i are still very close and will continue to be, even if we have to try to meet our own needs in other ways than we did when we were committed to a partnership. it is completely fair to say, however, that we have way different needs*, even if we meet some of each other's needs so well. so to me, the balancing of relationship is still an ongoing process that is always challenging to manage and cooperate with intelligently. and so even if we meet some needs so well, that doesn't mean that that alone can necessarily heal (the whole of) us. if appreciated, and if real giving was present, however, hopefully some good healing happens. it has for me.

    *many of these are not caused by entpness/infjness but are better described through other lenses. in relationships in general, for instance, we have many lenses to examine conflicts, needs, and desires, such as instinctual subtype, enneagram type, physical chemistry, cultural identifications/projections, values we were raised with that have shaped our paths in significant ways, parental and family relationships, general levels of well-being and self-esteem, romantic relationship histories and expectations, salient social networks, spiritual development, occupational maturity, gender expectations, knowing what it is the fuck you want, etc. attraction, trust, sustainability, need for healing, forgiveness, there's a lot of shit to balance when you're trying to work it out not only with someone else, but with all the pieces of yourself.

  3. #363
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    the state i am in That is a very well written post, excellent insight and I couldn't agree more.

    What I will quickly say is this. My thoughts on the INFJ/ENTP dynamic haven't changed due to "a" relationship or "a" person but rather my better getting to know my needs in a partner. My experience with INFJs is that I can't get my needs met with one, this has been reaffirmed many times over again over the past 7 years, always with the same reoccurring issues. In fact if I'm being honest, while I feel a pull to INFJs and I'm sure always will, I have been far more satisfied on almost all levels with both an ISTJ or an INFP and would choose either before dating another INFJ.

    I feel there may be less of a Ti/Fe conflict when the INFJ is the male and the ENTP the female so I will add that caveat.

    The only other thing I want to add is that ENTPs are probing, inquisitive creatures, we like knowing how things work, we like poking around and testing limits and finding the limits and pushing on them. This serves us well in life, this allows us to have a short learning curve, this allows insights and perspectives that are often unique. I do not however think this bodes well with INFJs, I think it's taxing for them and requires a level of exposure uncomfortable for most. INFJs have a hard time articulating their thoughts and they keep a lot to themselves. I'm sure the constant ENTP curiosity and desire to figure them out is both exciting and scary as shit but ultimately extremely taxing. This could just be me and how I work as an ENTP. I can see how this dynamic seems like it would be amazing and has an addictive quality.

  4. #364
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think the issue for me is more that my trust skills are rather weak. so the testing thing can be challenging. not necessarily just me, but others, situations, what's possible. i think this is especially difficult with 7s. they are so dug in at maintaining their sense of possibilities, just like i can get so dug in at consciously avoiding them.

    i also find that while entps are really good at moving forward, they often don't take the time to really get in touch with their needs. this can be a blind spot for both types, but whereas infj get caught up in having too much, too constricting, too overarching sense of purpose, sometimes it's like entps don't have any at all, and will actually vehemently deny that they even need any. the problem with this is that, for us Ti-Fe types, this sense of purpose, a sense of what feels beautiful for us, is a big part of how we embody our judgment, a big way we emotionally commit to something. without that, everything is just a possibility, and it's really difficult to feel anchored in that when you don't get a sense that this other person is actually in contact with their own ability to know what is true for them emotionally, value-wise, what deserves some protection from simply being "tested" and won't be objectified into smaller pieces and ultimately torn apart. sometimes with 7s, just like 5s, the need to KNOW, the need to not deny possibilities and keep too many open is very, very exhausting. not everyone can keep their focus in the same way so that they can keep moving forward at such a fast pace to outrun the negativity that also arises from lack of consideration, lack of commitment, lack of emotional truth. it's one of those ways where the fun and energeticness of a 7, well, the cracks start showing through, and why if they don't grow in their patience and their tolerance to truly be with what they are experiencing as is and stay with it until they have completed it, good or bad, they can be avoidant and intentionally ignore the other person's experience/needs. and just lose all grounding for self-awareness.

    the other thing is that, without being able to really use their sense of what is beautiful, and use their sense of how they are emotionally reacting and positioning themselves, orienting to things in the world, they can't really make their way backwards from that to start to inquire their deepest needs and the relationship between the two. if they can't do this, it's really difficult to offer empathy. and sometimes getting the feeling that you shouldn't have your needs, because that's not what seems right to them, is very frustrating.

    3w4 are very different. with them, it pretty much comes down to how much they are truly willing to get in touch with their own vulnerability, be patient with themselves, and empathizing with themselves. their ability to find such great focus, combined with the e4 ability to emotionally disconnect and blot out what one is feeling, can be really troublesome without a consistent attempt to practice this. e4 is tough. it's an incredibly narrow path to wire walk.

    i also know for me, and this is my personal issue, that i struggle a little bit with T because i can worry that i have less control, that i am less specifically aware of what is going on and more oblivious, than they are. the part of me that privileges truth so much, so intensely, struggles to let go and realize that sometimes i'm clinging to that for my own self-protection, even as it becomes more self-destructive than effective coping. this, to me, is a challenge that i need to work on regardless, because i know that when my mood isn't as stable as i would like, if i allow myself to worry about things i can't control, it can be a substantial setback and be exhausting in its own right.

  5. #365
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    There are unique NTP individuals I can connect with on a deep level, but I have also found the type to be the most extremely judgmental, hurtful, self-indulgent, controlling, manipulative, and taking, taking, taking, without empathy. I've been hurt by NTPs and even though I can still love and respect them, I plan to stay far away from almost all of them on a personal level. The Ti-Si loop universalizes personal pain and projects it outward as though it is logical truth. There is zero chance of convincing otherwise, or I should say I have convinced individuals otherwise, but the cost to my personal health and psychological well being is simply not worth it to try again.

    Point me in the direction of NFs for my closest connections. Point me to the INFJs for sure because they are the easiest for me to trust since they are the least judgmental and cruel in their assumptions of others (at least the ones I've known so far). ENFPs are a close second, and the people whom I cannot tell if they are INFJ or ENFP are the most awesome of all.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #366
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    At least on their forums they also have to be handled with kid gloves about certain things. Most normative button pushing doesn't affect them, but insult intelligence, logic, or their highly subjective realms and lordy, lordy,whatashitstorm.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #367
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    The only other thing I want to add is that ENTPs are probing, inquisitive creatures, we like knowing how things work, we like poking around and testing limits and finding the limits and pushing on them. This serves us well in life, this allows us to have a short learning curve, this allows insights and perspectives that are often unique. I do not however think this bodes well with INFJs, I think it's taxing for them and requires a level of exposure uncomfortable for most. INFJs have a hard time articulating their thoughts and they keep a lot to themselves. I'm sure the constant ENTP curiosity and desire to figure them out is both exciting and scary as shit but ultimately extremely taxing. This could just be me and how I work as an ENTP. I can see how this dynamic seems like it would be amazing and has an addictive quality.
    There are those of us who aren't private in the least. Though I haven't dated an ENTP. I really like the ones I've met irl. We'd probably debate endlessly. But this makes NTP's good philosophy teachers/mentors for me; they help me refine my Ti.

    Edit: Except 2 of them (who I've only talked to online) have tried to talk me into sending them naked pictures. What's up with that? If I say no, respect that.

  8. #368
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    ESTP-ISFJ
    ENTJ-INFP
    ESTJ-ISFP
    ESFJ-ISTP
    ENFJ-INTP


    and so on and so forth. switch the function except for s/n

  9. #369
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    As I was thinking through all the people I hoped would know my post did not reflect on my assumptions about them, I realized they were all NTP women. I guess that little boost of corpus callosum plasticity makes all the difference. So, yeah, I'd date a NTP chick.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #370
    Riva
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    ENTP and INFJ would be ideal if the ENTP is phobic.

    That is all for today children.

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