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  1. #341
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Go on with your bad self, then. My second breakfast awaits.
    m afraid i edited it a bit.

    Edits
    Anyway. I like playing on nuances in perception. For example 2 days ago i lent an amount of money to someone who probably at some level thinks I'm interested in her. I am not.

    As her patterns hinted that her words didn't match her actions I leveraged the short term lending of a small amount to her (about 150 usd) to check whether she'd show evasing behavior indicating a certain amount of self entitlement and a false perception as to, if push came to shove, exactly who would be in control of the situation (always amusing)

    So, I know I'm not going to lose the money, and frankly I spend as much on every other day anyway so it's not a significant sacrifice. If needed I would take steps breaking away the relationship to get my cash back, and they would succeed, but at the point i'd have to do that I wouldn't want her around anyway.

    That's the kind of things going through my head when she asked 'can i borrow x' through text. Then when she called I just asked her how much she needed, at which time she multiplied the previous amount. As I knew she was going to get her salary about 36 hours later she didn't actually need 150 bucks for cash payments at that point.

    Basically what I gathered is that she was going out and felt a need to try to make me believe it was some sort of semi pro meeting as she doesn't want to let me know that she was meeting up with a guy, believing that a certain apparent degree of availability towards me is something she can leverage. Which is simply false, I am not interested in people I do not trust, and I do not trust her.

    anyway. that's a recent 'risk'. In effect I gain information and there is near 0 chance that I do not recuperate my capital, and the pressure to recuperate the funds is commensurate to the degree to which I wouldnt be willing to distance myself from her.
    So the risk of 'losing more of her friendship than willing to' or 'losing the cash' are both near 0 in context.

    that's kind of how I 'take risks'
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  2. #342
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    m afraid i edited it a bit.

    Edits
    Anyway. I like playing on nuances in perception. For example 2 days ago i lent an amount of money to someone who probably at some level thinks I'm interested in her. I am not.

    As her patterns hinted that her words didn't match her actions I leveraged the short term lending of a small amount to her (about 150 usd) to check whether she'd show evasing behavior indicating a certain amount of self entitlement and a false perception as to, if push came to shove, exactly who would be in control of the situation (always amusing)

    So, I know I'm not going to lose the money, and frankly I spend as much on every other day anyway so it's not a significant sacrifice. If needed I would take steps breaking away the relationship to get my cash back, and they would succeed, but at the point i'd have to do that I wouldn't want her around anyway.

    That's the kind of things going through my head when she asked 'can i borrow x' through text. Then when she called I just asked her how much she needed, at which time she multiplied the previous amount. As I knew she was going to get her salary about 36 hours later she didn't actually need 150 bucks for cash payments at that point.

    Basically what I gathered is that she was going out and felt a need to try to make me believe it was some sort of semi pro meeting as she doesn't want to let me know that she was meeting up with a guy, believing that a certain apparent degree of availability towards me is something she can leverage. Which is simply false, I am not interested in people I do not trust, and I do not trust her.

    anyway. that's a recent 'risk'. In effect I gain information and there is near 0 chance that I do not recuperate my capital, and the pressure to recuperate the funds is commensurate to the degree to which I wouldnt be willing to distance myself from her.
    So the risk of 'losing more of her friendship than willing to' or 'losing the cash' are both near 0 in context.

    that's kind of how I 'take risks'
    Not so dissimilar to the way I do things. Perhaps you are not so much horrified at the process as you are at the idea of getting a taste of your own medicine?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #343
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littleseed View Post
    If it's rude not to tag and respond to specific people/posts, please issue a pardon this time around.

    Any human functioning with fear/anxiety as their motivating force will seek security. Can we acknowledge it's not a phenomena associated to one type? Can we recognize it as a human condition thing?

    As stated on here in many instances, ENTPs and INFJs are both runners in their own rights. Similarly with the comments, I agree, the only difference is if they are running to a "new world" or hiding in a cave.

    ENTPs and INFJs who are secure within themselves, have processed and resolved past crisis (the process INFJs are all too desperate for ahead of their emotional/cognitive maturation and ENTPs are all too desperate to avoid thus staging off their emotional/cognitive maturation), and are motivated by something greater (truth, a cause, life purpose, self-actualization) are the most fit to appreciate the power & intensity of this dynamic.

    It requires the ENTP to prize harmony over dominance and the INFJ to prize honesty over harmony. At this level, it is a healing dynamic for both partners. But it's certainly not for the faint of heart. It's what is required to develop your tertiary and inferior functions if you think the MBTI/interpretations of Jung can explain it all.
    I find it interesting that a well articulated, intelligent response like this hasn't been called attention to among all of the squawking and yacking. This thread has become nothing more than a justification fest for why choosing comfort in a fellow introvert over growth was the correct choice and ENTPs justifying why they want to continue to avoid the risks of being emotionally exposed and vulnerable at the expense of having a deep, fulfilling and rewarding partnership.

    Here's the reality for me, if you're an INFJ with the standard INFJ partner selection of INTP, INFP or ISTJ and have been for an extended amount of time, you really have nothing to contribute to what the ENTP/INFJ dynamic is like. If as an ENTP you were with an INFJ and idealized what you were signing up for, put yourself out there too far too quickly or expected NT like logic and ended up getting hurt, I would examine why you made the choices you did and focus on that over your hurt. I have been hurt by an INFP, INFJ, INTJ, ISFJ, ISFP, ISTJ, ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, and, are you getting my point here? With each there was a component I chose to ignore, avoid, assume would work out for the best, misunderstood, wasn't self aware enough and so on, so instead of bashing a type, I'm simply aware of each types potential shortcomings yet stay focused on mine and acknowledge the growth potential each can offer me and, I them.

    I am just expressing that this should remain on topic and not become a thread for the comfort driven INFJs nor the bitter ENTPs.

    Littleseed, I fully agree, thank you for a well spoken, accurate, emotion free response.

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  5. #345
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Not so dissimilar to the way I do things. Perhaps you are not so much horrified at the process as you are at the idea of getting a taste of your own medicine?
    No, I expect to be treated as I treat others, its an ingrained code. Also competition amuses me, so, unbalanced dynamics are either in my favor or a competition i choose to enter or detach from. If I engage I generally find the whole thing greatly amusing.

    *coughs*(tries desperately to stick to the topic of the thread )
    However in personal relationships I seek balance, and these relationships are very different from the rest as they involve mutual trust and vulnerability
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    First off I need to add a caveat, I'm a single ENTP so maybe my intentions are to try and swoon one of you INFJs but what's wrong with that.

    No really (well, additionally), I wrote this to get these thoughts out of my head and thought I would share because there does seem to be some confusion about how these functions work and just what it is to be an introvert or extrovert.

    I will say there has to be a huge level of self awareness on the ENTP side, something I think is rare before 30 and I wouldn't trust a young ENTP myself so a word of caution to any heartbreak that may arise from pursuits of young ENTPs.

    To fully explain this I need to go more in depth on MBTI itself so I'm sorry in advance if you already know this as well as for my inability to be terse. MBTI is not just 8 letters and being an INFJ for example doesn't mean only what the letters say at face value. As an example an ENFJ is not just the extroverted version of the INFJ, they are VERY different. The two middle letters are the main focus each with an extroverted or introverted possibility. So you can have Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi, Se and Si in many different orders. To give an example, Se is very sensory based, an ESFP would lead with this function as their main way (or least energy) of processing the world and making choices. To stereo type, the ESFP is the classic sorority girl who will date a douche bag asshole based only on his looks. In the case of the ESFP this Se function is followed up with Fi which is about internal feelings, when used correctly this translates to a self aware person, when wrong very selfish. Also the reason the ESFP is all about "me" and what is everybody going to do for "me". What a messed up function (Se) to lead with right!

    Now if you move on to a person with a dominant function of Ti such as with an INTP, you have the classic perfectionist engineer with tape on their glasses who doesn't even notice how messed up their hair is. Mainly because they lead Ti, Ne, Si and Fe leaving them with sensortardation (you and I have this as well) because we don't notice surroundings and do stupid things like walk into closed doors or forget we just brushed our teeth and brush them again, this is due to how in our own heads we are, always thinking. So again the INTP totally lacking the Se function would be oblivious to their appearance where as the ESFP would care only about their appearance.

    With that said, the INFJ is Ni, Fe, Ti and lastly Se leaving them with a dominant (or no energy to use) function of Ni that generates endless possibilities in an internal world. This is the reason they can picture things clearly and in such detail when they read (almost as if they're watching a movie in their head), this is why they can be alone in their own mind for long amounts of time and never get bored. With a secondary function of Fe, this is what allows them such an amazing ability to read people and is also what makes them such an enigma, they generate all these possibilities yet follow them up with Fe, a function that's VERY people based. They feel SO amazingly deep because they can visualize what other people feel in an endless world with no boundaries or rules that they haven't given it.

    To move on the ENTP is Ne, Ti, Fe and Si leaving them a dominant function of Ne, so they're as vivid as the INFJ except in the external world, their fantasies are about building things and with any and every thing they look at they wonder how it works and if they can make it better. They follow this up with Ti so they take all these possibilities and filter them with internal thinking. They can look at something very simple, imagine it 500 other ways and quickly think about what would work the best. It also affords them the luxury of being extremely quick witted and good at debates, because they can generate 50 possibilities and figure out what works best before most people can think of one. So if INFJs are the enigma having the Ni function followed by Fe (one being so internal the other being so people driven) ENTPs would be the paradox in that their first two functions are not people based and even though their dominant function is an extroverted one it's the extroverted function that doesn't need other people, leaving them the most introverted of all the extroverts. In fact with INFJs secondary function of Fe they're more extroverted than an ENTP although it doesn't look that way on the surface. Picture the INFJ as water dripping into a bucket, picture the ENTP when the bucket finally tips.

    The ENTP/INFJ dynamic is so amazing because if you look at how we look at the world it's:

    Ni Fe Ti Se
    Ne Ti Fe Si

    What that boils down to is picture a sock and somebody reaching in and pulling it inside out. ENTPs have the same depth INFJs do in a different way, ENTPs are the same as INFJs yet opposed in a way that is more reversed than opposite. The functions line up in a way that leaves both feeling totally understood yet with endless learning possibilities and total balance. They're like mental playgrounds for one another and it never gets old because both worlds are based in endless possibilities. This same dynamic holds true for the ENFP/INTJ.

    Where the four dominant intuitives differer so much from other types (and why this dynamic is so interesting among the ENTP/INFJ) is our satisfaction (or mostly, lack of) in relationships due to our desire for a deep mental connection, both are looking for mind mates and both want the ideal relationship. Overall we (dominant intuitives) have the most consistent moral systems and are most likely to be disappointed if someone falls short of those moral standards. Both are very growth oriented, passionate, deep and unwilling to be in a relationship of routine that gets old and lazy in time. You do not "get", "capture", "confine", "own" or "cage" an ENTP, ENFP, INFJ or INTJ, those are the four types that pick you.

    The issue with the difficulty in starting an ENTP/INFJ relationship isn't limited to one thing. First off, neither is used to being understood so there's this never ending clarification and "know what I'm saying", "if that makes sense" issue. Both are in dismay somebody else understands with such ease. However because we take different paths to the same place we'll ask things like "why'd you do that" just to understand, when explained the other person totally gets it but because we're so used to the same thing happening with a different outcome it preys on our frustration or issues of never feeling understood. Secondly the INFJ is hard to get out of their shell and the ENTP is quick to run back to theirs. The INFJ has this feeling initially that they'll never get the space they want because they see the ENTP extroverting and the ENTP swears you're not interested. The INFJ will have this constant push/pull I want it no I don't issue and have to fight to get the flood gate open. The ENTP will have this run while you still can issue and have a tough time keeping the flood gate from shutting. Both speak truly and honestly but have a tendency to try reading between the lines with the other when there's nothing there to be read. We apply our own motivations to the other persons actions which is never correct (different path to the same place) and this all takes some excellent and very open communication. These issues don't last long however so at least that's a plus. We're both a type that never really lets people in and we're both amazing at reading people so we're faced with an issue of holy shit this is going to hurt if it doesn't work so both need to want love more than the fear of having it. We're both so whole alone but together there's an overlapping of abilities that gives the other a peephole (I read that four times and kept thinking there was a missing p) into a whole different world. I can tell you right off the bat, if I (as an ENTP) had internal issues I was hiding I wouldn't even consider pursuing an INFJ until I had my head on right because I know it would be picked up on instantly.

    There two things I would like to add while I'm thinking about them. I've compared the ENTP and INFJ to opposite sides of the same coin saying we're exactly the same yet totally different.

    I would say the ENTP and INFJ are both the oddity of the MBTI world on the introverted and extroverted side. We don't really fit in anyplace and are the two types that most often feel quirky, misunderstood and like there is no way anybody will every accept much less understand and love how different we are.

    Anyway, what dawned on me is the false low score we often get on our E function. My dominant Ne function is very high yet I will sometimes only score 54% E and on occasion I will test as INTP. This is because depending on the test I will answer all questions like "you feel comfortable in a crowd" with a yes (standard extrovert answer) yet also answer all questions like "you require a lot of alone time" with a yes, standard introvert answer. This conflict is due to leading Ne, an extroverted function that doesn't need people at all.

    By contrast and backing up everything else I've said. INFJs often falsely test as INFPs, because while the ENTP is the most introverted extrovert the INFJ is the least orderly J. With MBTI these are the only two anomalies like this I'm aware of.

    I have never probed enough on this topic to explain why this is the case with INFJs and that J function but I do find it interesting and in line with everything else I've said.

    Also, ENTPs are the slowest to mature and the INFJ is of course the quickest so I think a 5 to 10 year age difference with the ENTP being older is ideal if not essential. The downside for the INFJ maturing so quickly is because you already feel so different and alone (the ENTP does as well but being the extrovert with an over sized ego they haven't noticed it yet and is enjoying still thinking they're better than everybody else) you also don't feel like you fit in with other people your age so by the time the ENTP has matured the INFJ is feeling jaded, frustrated and starting to let go of that ideal picture of love they've always had and can find in the ENTP.

    Damn this was long, sorry, only a saint or INFJ (same thing I guess less the dark humor) would read all of this.
    Wow. Despite all the negative responses I've seen to your post, everything you said about INFJs (or at least me lol) was spot on. I hope there really are ENTPs like you described out there. I've never met an ENTP tho. I'm currently in the situation you described where I feel misunderstood by everyone around me bc I've matured faster (I'm in high school). It really hurts feeling so misunderstood and lonely due to the fact that I mature quicker than most people. I've had to deal with it since I was 11. I make really good friendships but after awhile (about 2 years) I've matured and they haven't and it's like we don't connect anymore. I try to keep the relationships up but there's just nothing to talk about or do together. I don't want that to sound super negative or anything! I've learned to deal with it and I'm actually a normally a happy person. It just hits me sometimes......thanks so much for your post and I don't think it was too long

  7. #347
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    As an (slightly) E, and NTP, and living for years with an (quite) I, NFJ, I can't agree more with this :

    we take different paths to the same place
    That's why, I think many ENTP are fascinated by INFJ. Because using a different way, non rationnal, they come generally to the same conclusions. It's so...it's like magic. Yes, when I look to her, I am crazy of this power of "truth-o-meter", which is so efficient and quick, compared to my brain-analysis of everything and everyone.

    But the hardest part is (for the ENTP, "living" with an INFJ) to "calm down" and stop hiding and using social masks. Being real can be very hard for an ENTP who is used to "lie" or showing always a different part of his many social visages. Because INFJ will feel it, like looking through a clear glass window.
    And even if they can be attracted our kindness hidden in us, and our child-like sense of wonderness, our moral "purity" , they can easily be disgusted by how we can lie and "use" social skills to make people do things for us. Especially if they live with us, and see us in different places, with different people. They will suddenly see us like a stranger, somebody who isn't real and only live for "manipulation" (for some INFJ i know, talking to people and sharing our interests can easily be seen as "manipulation").

    For an ENTP, attracting INFJ is "easy", but keeping them is hard. Because we have to be real, because we can't lie on a long-term with them, and because sometimes our optimism can break against their wall of stress and fears. For our materialism, it can be...like..."loss of time which could be used for something funnier or more interesting". For an ENTP it's hard to feel that the better part of the INFJ can't be separated of its worst part because we can be very short-termist when it's about our time and our "fun".

    And, also, looking to ourselves and asking questions to ourselves can be very painful and leading us to really question what and who we are. But it can only make us better and will learn us many things, being "better" and less egocentric.

  8. #348
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    Maybe it was my saintlike personality (yes that is sarcasm) or the fact that I am an INFJ girl really trying to make things work with an ENTP guy, but I read the whole post. And I do think I agree with you. After reading tons of bios on both INFJs and ENTPs I think you do have the reasons for compatibility pretty figured out. Although I think there are a lot of potential issues that can come between a good INFJ-ENTP relationship.
    From personal experience I have found that as an INFJ, I am the kind of person who knows exactly what I want at all times and am not one to be afraid of commitment and follow through. Through my experience with ENTPs (in the case of my younger brother and a good friend of mine who now has become something of a romantic interest), I have learned that ENTPs are definitely given to having so many ideas and thoughts that they struggle to make decisions and follow through with things. I think that in relationships this can be an issues because us INFJs want security and follow through, there is nothing worse than knowing you want someone and being willing to do anything for them while they aren't sure if they feel the same, while ENTPs are so lost in ideas that they don't always know exactly what they want and even if they do they aren't necessarily to follow through with things. It definitely is very frustrating as an INFJ to constantly feel like you're waiting for the ENTP to make up their mind about something that you have been so certain about for a long time, especially when it comes to matters of the heart.
    On the other hand I think that ENTPs really are the perfect match for us INFJs once we manage to work out our differences. A little personal background here to justify what I'm saying. I am currently a student (I don't think my youth makes me any less insightful on this, particularly because I am an INFJ therefore meaning insight on such things is what I'm best at), and last year I met an ENTP guy. Although I knew him last year, our friendship really took off this year and we have become close friends. Over the last six or so months I have developed feelings for him but been afraid to pursue things past a friendship level due to complications. Undeniably though, there has always been chemistry between us that has made things a bit confusing. He has become someone who really helps me get through the depression, confusion, and low self-confidence that my life has been characterized by. In turn, as someone who is very much an INFJ, I have worked to get him to open up, lean on me, and come to me for help on decision making. It has been a complex friendship, but one that has really helped me to better understand ENTPs. Also, my brother is an ENTP so I have definitely had plenty of opportunity to understand what and how ENTPs are driven as individuals.
    Now, back to the main point now that I am done explaining my life experiences with ENTPs. I believe that the real magic that makes INFJs and ENTPs so great together comes from the opposites attract concept. As an INFJ it's amazing to find someone whose enthusiasm contrasts your broodiness and tendency towards pessimism or sadness, whose flexibility and willingness to take risks opposes your planned, cautious, and routine life, whose thoughtful and logical thinking approaches contrast your feeling based world, and whose enthralling ideas you can actually put into action. Of course all these differences can cause conflict, but do you really want to be with someone who is exactly like you? Isn't the unknown and different so much more exciting? Also dealing with these differences can really make a strong bond between INFJs and ENTPs. We are able to help each other grow, and by forcing each other to deal with our weakness (the parts of the other person that are completely opposite of us) we can ultimately help each other to become more well rounded people. Of course this is all very idealistic and without commitment it may be hard to make these difference come into harmony.
    Beyond that, I believe that another thing that makes ENTPs and INFJs so great together is the fact that we are both so driven to understand the world around us. Although ENTP may do so externally and INFJ does so internally, it makes both us the kind of people who want to get to know and understand people, which is great considering I think we both really want to be understood too. From personal experience, I think ENTPs and INFJs are able to relate to each other and sympathize well even if we understand things and approach situations differently. Plus the whole "lost in the clouds dreamer" thing we both have going on, though in very different ways, helps us not only to understand each other but to have lots of fun thinking about possibilities for the world, the future, and the people around us.
    Furthermore, INFJs really just want to take care of people. Nothing makes us happier than making those we care about happy. This means that we will really try to satisfy the needs of ENTPs, even if the ENTP can't decide what those needs exactly are. And the charming, logical, and idealistic personalities of ENTPs can really help bring an INFJ out of his/her shell and experience life in a more flexible, social, and exciting way than we probably would on our own.
    I know this is awfully long, and maybe these observations are not completely accurate or generalizations that go beyond myself and the ENTPs that I am close to, but I believe that understanding why as INFJs or ENTPs the ENTP-INFJ relationship is an ideal one really has to come off of some basis of personal experience and understanding. After all we are individuals beyond just our personality types.
    Last edited by lilyvalley; 04-03-2013 at 05:42 PM.

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    Haha, I'm friends with an iNFJ guy and ENFP girl who are going out. It's funny, because they're different in a bunch of ways - he's more subdued and thoughtful, while she's more expressively quirky and dramatic. But they're cute together and seem really happy

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    I actually just got out of a 2 year relationship with an estp just a week ago.
    It was special in a way but mostly just me getting trampled and used. It was sort of like i was slowly accepting complete responsibility for everything. which backfired because now im doing it all alone, just now i am actually alone. and he is doing nothing still. just alone.

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