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  1. #321
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    mmh . i dont know guys.

    In my case I am particularly vulnerable to infjs overall, whether friends or romantic interests.
    But I can't really afford to be vulnerable. it breaks me, and it can take me years to pick up the pieces. As a risk taker when it comes to things that have potential to redefine my life I find most people do not share the same risk taking pattern, it is disappointing. I for example changed countries, cultures etc. at a moments notice. Stepping into a plane about 3 days after deciding, and deciding in less than a minute, and I can explain exactly why I made that choice. It was rational but the trick to me is stress management. I do not really, experience stress, if i do it probably equivates to a total mental breakdown curled up in a ball and moaning for your average stress prone infj.

    Correct me if wrong, but overall infjs are a very stressed type, (stress is a word I use rather than a real experience for me), they stress, then overanalyse, go into loops, hang onto the answer they find, the answer brings actionable relief, relief is needed, stress is feared, the answer become truth.

    While it's very understandable, I'm just not willing to deal with that kind of utter bullshit in my personal life.

    so all that to say that except if I lived 1000 years i'd probably never be ready to be so vulnerable to someone ever again. Then again im a risk taker, so. mhhh.

    You guys have fun keeping that thread alive.
    stress management is within all motivation. it sounds like you (and i'm making a generalization based on type and tone of your posts more than on knowing much about your real life behavior) just manage stress by moving through it with greater focus and greater hardening of your emotional self. and it's from running so you don't have to stick around for the actual effects. the downside of just moving forward is that part of you is always running from experiencing the full weight of your truth. the answer that is the most relevant is the truth for you. that is your truth. that comes from softening rather than hardening, that's centered in your emotional experience, especially as you sink down into the deeper layers of it, as you notice what is really happening and how all those "really happening" things are balanced, weighted against each other, and what that music sounds like when you pluck the strings. when you just up and move to another country, you open up incredible new opportunities. you also lose a big part of yourself, your family, the people who have become part of you that you have shared much of yourself with and who now house much of you within themselves. when you have to just change selves because your self is drowning, or when you are not content enough with yourself that the only thing that motivates you is novelty or conquering something outside of yourself, you are just really careful to maintain the conditions of a different kind of trap. and really that's the basic premise of the enneagram for all of us. and part of our conflict is in being so attached to the traps that we are afraid of losing because then we would have to find a new way to be without the illusions that have kept us predictable enough to pretend that we do not have any fucking clue.

    it should be clear that we are just as vulnerable as you. we cannot move forward, cannot outrace the explosion. we are not action movie stars. we are not movers and shakers. we cannot hang our hats on our accomplishments with as much fervor and focus. we do not conquer with the same aplomb. when we commit to share, we really begin to identify deeply with you. we will know you. in every relationship i have ever been in, one of the things that has been said to me is that our relationship transformed how they saw themselves. that i could see them in ways that they could not even see themselves. this is part of what we do. nfjs, when they're working for you, when they're committed to you, know how to offer incredibly subtle adjustments. they are incredibly skilled interpreters. they try to reveal, to clarify what makes anything beautiful, valuable, understandable, significant. they show new ways of entering into problems that help the problem change in a way that eventually it can just dissolve. they may not be good at proving anything, but they can offer a perspective that, when embodied, is incredibly valuable to experience. but these skills are often difficult to utilize. they require balance, which is difficult to find in this world. otherwise, they are easily distorted, pushed over, and taken advantage of. we of course have egos, but we're often not very good (the enfj 3w4s are, however) at advancing ourselves and improving our own lot. our lot, by contrast, has to be a distributed one. it is what Fe aux requires of us. to harmonize and take care of all that connects through us. all Fe types struggle staying open and connected in the face of threats to their personal boundaries, their personal well-being. it gives them difficulty in setting boundaries at all. that entp and especially 7w8 and 3w4 types are so good at turning off connection or manipulating the sense of connection to maintain a sense of value through the eyes of others without really connecting to whether or not that is actually valuable to oneself, often times leaving authentic sincere connections for dead. you lose the part of yourself looking for that, striving for that, trying to explore its own completeness, it's own core of significant relationships and nurturing rather than severing those. F requires sacrifice and at times submission. it can't be easily compartmentalized, which makes it harder to be in control of, harder to move in a straight line. a relationship with an infj requires an acceptance and appreciation of this. this part of you will wake up. it requires change in a more fundamental way, and this kind of change is costly because it is more significant, deeper rooted. moreover, we understand, because a part of us wakes up too, that helps us see how to take control of our own behavior and test the outcomes of our choices in more effective ways. it is threatening to us because you can control us and lie to us in ways that are difficult for us to fully test on our own, to know what is true apart from what the communication says on the surface of it and into the endless realm of possibilities that make reality so infinite and shape-shifting. and we struggle because we become vulnerable to ourselves, recognizing that a huge part of ourselves is undeveloped and struggles to anchor itself, that all the mirrors in the world still can't tell you who you ultimately are. because equally significant is the choice you make to decide and the choice you make to notice without attaching too rigidly to the meaning of things (as a way to purport to know when often times it's better to just admit that you don't).

    but we also simply struggle with issues in relationships in general. like all types, apart from you. knowing what we want. responding to what is and what has actually happened rather than the ideas that allow us to perceive anything at all, that mark what is valuable or not, that categorize valuableness. oftentimes p types use these less, but they're still there for everyone. when we become good at being ourselves, we learn how to be more reflexive of these categories than p types. we recognize our way of thinking so clearly, that we know when it works against us. this, however, is not an answer. the answer is in finding new ways of being, thinking in fundamentally different ways that help us just be there, be present, improve the directness of our perception and our willingness to experience without judgment and without meaning. we are threatened by this part of you that is so clearly a part of ourselves we do not yet trust. that's the gist.

  2. #322
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Yeah. I had some free time. I didnt mean to take part in some sort of emotionally supercharged type clash.

    @the state i am in Thanks for your answer. I shall take the time to reply it later. @Samvega. Im not trying to be part of some, group dynamic here, i do not know your story, and while i always go through a set of logical factors to motivate actions i do not call it incredibly calculating or anything of that nature. My motivators are simply these, and a few others, its my flavor of decision making.
    Last edited by EcK; 03-03-2013 at 03:15 PM.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #323
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    I dont trust easily. I have my reasons, vulnerability makes breach of trust more hurtful. That is all i meant, no specific example or message was on my mind, just. Participating.

    I think im horrified by pure pragmatism in relationship decision because well. There is so little in me that is able to care, sometimes, and the price of control and stability would be too high. I do not want to make the choices that would, just make me hardened to the point of considering that good enough is enough, it would be a betrayal of everything that I am, selling out, in a way. It would feel like quite a dry life to have.

    I take risks, i go for high reward high risk (as long as i understand the risk, i dont gamble, i invest) and consider a myriad factors (not saying I'm the only one)
    As for stress, i think the perspective @cafe gave was that of the stressed. If you dont get bogged down into mud while walking under the rain then you re simply not slowed down, it doesnt mean you re running or running away from something. Throughout my life i saw people make decisions based on things i simply did not feel and which did not come into my decision making process. (Such as strong attachment to places, family, predictability over growth and the unknown)

    You can call it repression, i can only speak of what i experience.

    Its all about what we seek and risk perception. I know what i want from life, and stability isn't something i need for myself. Homeostasis is just not good enough.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #324
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think this is an issue more than anything - ENTPs crave that kind of excitement and change. INFJs ultimately don't. While initially it is attractive to both sides to encounter someone who pulls them out of their comfort zone, in the end it is a bit like the old stories of the man and the mermaid falling in love - there simply isn't a place for them to live that both can exist in. I think it would be dependent on one or the other giving up a big chunk of who they are to accommodate the difference and I'm not sure how sustainable that is in the long run.

    While I've never had any romantic connection to an ENTP in real life, I can see the appeal. Characters like House and Patrick Jane are attractive to me. I think INFJs enjoy the element of trying to figure out human puzzles and of providing comfort for someone who doesn't easily turn to just anyone for that. I find the competence and curiousity (quest to learn) appealing. There's something very attractive about being with someone who is able to get you to try new things. However, I really couldn't handle the instability or rootlessness (I don't mean personal instability, but situational) that it appears to me an ENTP would need to be happy. I never realized how much before, but I think the Ni vs Ne thing would be a bigger deal too than I originally might have thought.

  5. #325
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    stress management is within all motivation. it sounds like you (and i'm making a generalization based on type and tone of your posts more than on knowing much about your real life behavior) just manage stress by moving through it with greater focus and greater hardening of your emotional self. and it's from running so you don't have to stick around for the actual effects. the downside of just moving forward is that part of you is always running from experiencing the full weight of your truth.
    How would I run from what i don't perceive ? I also do not really believe in the idea of truth being more than a tool or sets of datapoint correlation. and its certainly not unitary, if there is truth, there is as many truths as there are units of anything in the universe.

    you also lose a big part of yourself, your family, the people who have become part of you that you have shared much of yourself with and who now house much of you within themselves.
    I (try to ) know when it's time to stop putting good money after bad money. By which I mean after I tried discussing and left many openings, and tried my best, and stated things out loud etc. and then i leave and will of course seek new experiences as cryosleep hasn't been developed yet. it's something I've made myself become, because it was necessary. To me possibilities are always open, if someone was a friend to me one day, they will always be my friend, if i loved someone, i will always love them. these things are, my absolutes if you will, things that just do not change, but I have to live, so I leave things behind to create new associations in my mind, expand new futures breaking away from an old timeline radically. because I have to. it's not something i do for pleasure, it's something i do to survive.

    when you have to just change selves because your self is drowning, or when you are not content enough with yourself that the only thing that motivates you is novelty or conquering something outside of yourself, you are just really careful to maintain the conditions of a different kind of trap.
    Oh, I'm quite content with myself. actually. Huge ego and all. ya know.
    The outside is I, i talk-think, rather than think then talk or think and talk. It's all entangled. If something is painful to me, it will drain energy, i will need more to replenish myself yes. However I think that's just, the price of extroversion in general.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #326
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I have met several ENTPs. I find myself drawn to them, for friends and fun, but the ones I've known have been too scattershot/unpredictable for me to feel like dating them would be a viable option. Based on the INTPs and ENTPs I've known personally, the INTPs (in particular the one I married) are far more grounded, methodical, and upfront. There are no games, no histrionics, no erratic or hurtful behavior. If words come out of his mouth, he means them because he has thought about them at length. The same has not been true of the ENTPs I've known personally- they process by putting it all out there and THEN sorting it out, rather than sorting it out before presenting it to me. So some hurtful things get said and then taken back as "I didn't really mean that." Individually, those instances might not be extremely hurtful, but over years and years they would become little erosions in my trust of that person. I do know myself well enough to know that.
    This is exactly the biggest problem, imo (at least on the INFJ end). I suspect the ENTPs who show up here complaining about squirrel-y INFJs have no idea that what they do is the equivalent of senselessly tying down their future schedules, expecting them to have everything they do decided a week in advance. Spontaneously pummeling us with every possible argument that pops into their head robs us of our freedom. It is a slow death. There needs to be a filter. If they want the freedom to be the unbridled word jockey that Ne lends them to be, impulsively arguing every possibility that enters their thoughts (without stopping to prioritize or comb out the logistical flaws first), then they don't really want to be with an INFJ. I suspect those who have been able to maintain relationships with INFJs have managed to cultivate the ability to filter some of the information BEFORE 'putting it out there'.
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  7. #327
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is exactly the biggest problem, imo (at least on the INFJ end). I suspect the ENTPs who show up here complaining about squirrel-y INFJs have no idea that what they do is the equivalent of senselessly tying down their future schedules, expecting them to have everything they do decided a week in advance. Spontaneously pummeling us with every possible argument that pops into their head robs us of our freedom. It is a slow death. There needs to be a filter. If they want the freedom to be the unbridled word jockey that Ne lends them to be, impulsively arguing every possibility that enters their thoughts (without stopping to prioritize or comb out the logistical flaws first), then they don't really want to be with an INFJ. I suspect those who have been able to maintain relationships with INFJs have managed to cultivate the ability to filter some of the information BEFORE 'putting it out there'.
    Here may lay a fundamental problem: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #328
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Here may lay a fundamental problem, I experience often: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.
    Therein lies a mismatch; According to the INFJ posters here, that's not what INFJ seek, but rather a stable enough reality they can trust that does not provide. How much of all this is a simplistic & subjective subset or representative of the whole, is anyone's guess, though.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #329
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Therein lies a mismatch; According to the INFJ posters here, that's not what INFJ seek, but rather a stable enough reality they can trust that does not provide. How much of all this is a simplistic & subjective subset or representative of the whole, is anyone's guess, though.
    I wouldnt be so passive aggressive about that, cause the older I get the more I am convinced that this mindset is the one of all introverted feelers. It's their choice they have made in life, which aint too illogical, cause they just said: "only what intrests me please, cause I cant take all your shit".

    I have had troubles in respecting that in my isfp. In the beginning of the relationship I called her egoistic, egocentric or ignorant. The older I get tho, I learn to understand that she is my fundamental opposite and that I cant expect her to be au pair with me even in those things that are fundamental to me.

    I have learnt two things from that: the first was: I am not always right, tho I am rationally right. And the second: this way of treating and seeing the world was a blind spot to my own perception, cause I emotionally disliked it. Opening up to it has shown me that I am not as tolerant than I always thought I am and has given me access to a world, I would otherwise have missed.

    Up until today I have fundamental communication problems with my gf, I have no idea how this has been working for 8 yrs now. But I am thankful for every other day I get
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #330
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I wouldnt be so passive aggressive about that, cause the older I get the more I am convinced that this mindset is the one of all introverted feelers. It's their choice they have made in life, which aint too illogical, cause they just said: "only what intrests me please, cause I cant take all your shit".

    I have had troubles in respecting that in my isfp. In the beginning of the relationship I called her egoistic, egocentric or ignorant. The older I get tho, I learn to understand that she is my fundamental opposite and that I cant expect her to be au pair with me even in those things that are fundamental to me.

    I have learnt two things from that: the first was: I am not always right, tho I am rationally right. And the second: this way of treating and seeing the world was a blind spot to my own perception, cause I emotionally disliked it. Opening up to it has shown me that I am not as tolerant than I always thought I am and has given me access to a world, I would otherwise have missed.

    Up until today I have fundamental communication problems with my gf, I have no idea how this has been working for 8 yrs now. But I am thankful for every other day I get
    I merely pointed a mismatch within the limited data sample this thread/discussion provides and referenced exactly that limitation. Wherever you saw passive-aggressiveness in my post, is but your own interpretation.

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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