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  1. #311
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Whether it is work or relationships, most people end up stuck, even trapped in circumstances that are much different than they had hoped for in their lives. I think that would be pretty disturbing to an ENTP or an ENFP in particular. People can make changes, but those changes have a higher cost the older you get. It would be really interesting to hear the specific aspects that horrify you.
    Just to add my 5 cents: the entp type isnt called the inventor for no reason. When I was young I had an idea of what adult life could be, but that changed on a daily basis. Nowadays this hasnt changed much, my imagination of the future still changes on a daily basis cause the future is movement.

    Another thing is that as an entp I dont really expect things from life. Meaning I dont want life a certain way to be, I am more like a leaf in a river and am fascinated by the directions it takes.

    This all applies only of course to healthy relationships, if that is not given one should by all means bail out.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #312
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I like that one. And I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there are several factors that I was aware of at the time, that I now know in retrospect that I didn't know before, and things that developed in ways I didn't expect that indicate, to me, it was a good decision.

    Consider that I was a thirty year old woman of average looks and no college degree and little work experience with four children between the ages of two and eight. As a single mother, life would have been sucky for us all. Marrying someone else would have been my best way to anything like a comfortable life. My prospects for finding a better and better off partner were pretty darn low. My husband was gone a lot for work, making little money, and withdrawn when he came home. He wasn't physically or verbally abusing me, just kind of leaving me out to dry because he couldn't cope. He wasn't unfaithful or drinking or gambling. What money he made went to taking care of us. We didn't argue. The sex wasn't super frequent, but it was good.

    Looking back, we basically just bit off more than we could chew and we were both struggling to deal with it. It would have likely been the same with anyone I was with in those circumstances.

    A few years later he got a better job, the kids were all in school all day and viola! our marriage improved dramatically.

    Our kids were going to get older whether I was with their dad, single or with someone else. That I would earn more as a single mom in the same time period than my husband ended up making more is highly unlikely. I could have theoretically got with a man making similar money or better money, also unlikely, but possible. But then we would have all the issues that go along with having a blended family.

    I don't have those with my kids' dad: no step-parent dynamics, not sorting out visitation, no child-support issues. That stuff can negatively impact a marriage.

    Now, as the TED talk indicates, I likely would have adjusted to the circumstances and been a similar degree of happy, but my circumstances would likely not have materially improved. So at the very least it's a toss-up and, having had step-parents, that's enough to make me glad I stayed.
    This makes the think of past conversations.. I have talked a lot with a few other people on the definition of Love and some think it is a pure emotion that carries you through life, through tides, whirlpools, and stagnate ponds. Others think it is the conviction of making a choice to remain in Love, to work on what needs fixing and to allow the time needed to realize the cause and to work on the remedy. I don't think looking at Love in either light is good or bad, but I think experiencing both aids in growth of the Individual. And in my opinion a partnership is at it's best with two complete Individuals. We don't grow when not challenged in any aspect of our lives.

    Also, when children are involved in any situation.. it's always, in my experience, thought of differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Correct me if wrong, but overall infjs are a very stressed type, (stress is a word I use rather than a real experience for me), they stress, then overanalyse, go into loops, hang onto the answer they find, the answer brings actionable relief, relief is needed, stress is feared, the answer become truth.

    While it's very understandable, I'm just not willing to deal with that kind of utter bullshit in my personal life.
    This I think is incomplete as an encompassing generalization. I do agree that very stressed people go into the over-analyzing and fear inspired loop that you present, however, I don't think that as a type INFJ's can be described like this.. I think environment and experiences can change that, which is perhaps more common when in a diminished or immature state for them (INFJ's). And from my own experience this was obvious on a couple of occasions in my life. Where I think the theory is incomplete is it denies INFJ's the ability to grow beyond it, which is what is always a problem in generalizations. It shuts the door, and shut doors are limiting.

    On another hand, the utter bullshit of experiences such as these requires a lot of work that, sadly, often ends in broken feelings and vulnerability on both sides. They are rarely win/win because we are all human and humans hurt. I also agree that dealing with things like this is not fair almost to either party, at all.

    My experiences with the couple of ENTP's I have been able to know has been the sort of magic that incinerates us both, and could possibly through years of trial been good, but, it was difficult to separate the present from the future. Too many small issues that would build (did build) into larger ones that were not fair to either of us. So while I do believe it could be a good thing.. it would take tremendous effort on both parts, and neither could be immature or fucked up in the head at the time. That seems to cloud things.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  3. #313
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    We don't grow when challenged in any aspect of our lives.
    I'd think that challenge is what fosters growth, while being in one's comfort zone does not.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #314
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    I'd think that challenge is what fosters growth, while being in one's comfort zone does not.
    Yes, that is what I meant to say.. 'We don't grow when NOT challenged'... And now it's in quotes! I hate when I forget words when I reread... I swear they're there. :/ *shakes head*

    **edited, thanks phobik
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  5. #315
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    Yes, that is what I meant to say.. 'We don't grow when NOT challenged'... And now it's in quotes! I hate when I forget words when I reread... I swear they're there. :/ *shakes head*
    You planned it from the start, didn't you, knowing the ENTP crowd would be on the lookout, just to net extra attention.
    Well done.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #316
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    You planned it from the start, didn't you, knowing the ENTP crowd would be on the lookout, just to net extra attention.
    Well done.
    Obviously, phobik. *tips hat to your Si*
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  7. #317
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    I'm not/wasn't in your shoes to question/judge your resolve, which naturally was a culmination of your thought process/life experience/expectations/fears/etc, and that's also not the point here, either. If anything, I'd speculate any reasoning now, will be like monday morning quarterbacking, just reinforcing what the TED video sheds light about.

    Regardless, I think it provides, as pointed out, an often [always?] neglected pov that plays a big role in the sort of pitfall dynamics that have been discussed in this thread, but not restricted to the specific MTBI pairing.
    One obviously can't know how one would have felt if things had gone a different way, however, looking back, there are periods of my life that I feel more positive about than others. I have a hard time gaging my level of happiness in the present and would probably always rate my current level of happiness at around the same level unless I as going through some kind of major crisis. But looking back, I can tell you I was pretty miserable when my kids were small and we were broke and I was very happy from 2006 to 2009 when my husband was making good money and had a local route and the kids were in school all day. Those were some of the best years of my life. Things have been harder since the recession, but never as bad as when we were very poor. There are worse things than poverty but I still really don't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I dont know why, but that kind of logic applied to one's life, while it is something i do everyday for everything else, absolutly horrifies me when it comes to friends or romantic relationships.

    Morover, pretty much nothing horrifies me, so that makes it particularly interesting.
    People not applying logic to their relationships horrifies me. Relationships are too important not to apply logic to, IMO. Yet people just thrash around like . . . I dunno . . . blind octopi in a tank full of lemon juice. And a lot of times their kids are along for the ride. It's unconscionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    This makes the think of past conversations.. I have talked a lot with a few other people on the definition of Love and some think it is a pure emotion that carries you through life, through tides, whirlpools, and stagnate ponds. Others think it is the conviction of making a choice to remain in Love, to work on what needs fixing and to allow the time needed to realize the cause and to work on the remedy. I don't think looking at Love in either light is good or bad, but I think experiencing both aids in growth of the Individual. And in my opinion a partnership is at it's best with two complete Individuals. We don't grow when challenged in any aspect of our lives.

    Also, when children are involved in any situation.. it's always, in my experience, thought of differently.
    The English word 'love' is so broad as to barely be useful, IMO. For me, conviction is the trellis and emotion is the vine. You need both things because what is a trellis without a vine? And how can the vine thrive without the trellis?

    LTRs go through seasons. Each season has its pros and their cons, but some are easier and/or more pleasant than others. Nobody told me this, so I kind of had to wallow around and figure it out on my own. It would have been helpful to me to have known there was an end in sight, I think.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #318
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    mmh . i dont know guys.

    In my case I am particularly vulnerable to infjs overall, whether friends or romantic interests.
    But I can't really afford to be vulnerable. it breaks me, and it can take me years to pick up the pieces. As a risk taker when it comes to things that have potential to redefine my life I find most people do not share the same risk taking pattern, it is disappointing. I for example changed countries, cultures etc. at a moments notice. Stepping into a plane about 3 days after deciding, and deciding in less than a minute, and I can explain exactly why I made that choice. It was rational but the trick to me is stress management. I do not really, experience stress, if i do it probably equivates to a total mental breakdown curled up in a ball and moaning for your average stress prone infj.

    Correct me if wrong, but overall infjs are a very stressed type, (stress is a word I use rather than a real experience for me), they stress, then overanalyse, go into loops, hang onto the answer they find, the answer brings actionable relief, relief is needed, stress is feared, the answer become truth.

    While it's very understandable, I'm just not willing to deal with that kind of utter bullshit in my personal life.

    so all that to say that except if I lived 1000 years i'd probably never be ready to be so vulnerable to someone ever again. Then again im a risk taker, so. mhhh.

    You guys have fun keeping that thread alive.
    EcK, without a doubt I fully understand where you're coming from and wanted to acknowledge that you aren't alone. I feel a stronger pull to INFJs than I have to any other type however I've never felt emotionally safe or in any way secure with one. Like yourself, being "vulnerable" is incredibly taxing on me and the push/pull and avoidance issues of an INFJ make that literally painful (also the best weight loss plan I've ever found). I don't however want to bash or pigeonhole a type, any type and maybe being an extrovert simply adds a catalyst to the dynamic that pushes INFJs to make choices they're unwilling to otherwise make, or point out things they're not willing to face. Maybe this is why the vast majority of INFJs choose to date introverts, because they can go through 1, 2 or 3 year periods of being unhappy with their partner and it doesn't come to a head without that catalyst. Maybe I'm simply too abrasive for such a feeling based type, I can't really say that I have the answer, nor that there is any single right answer. I just know that trying to remain present in that setting is very hard for me and if it doesn't work out requires an enormous amount of time for me to recover from.

    We do sound alike in that I take calculated risks as well, I make quick decisions, I look like I'm very spontaneous but the truth is, I'm INCREDIBLY calculating and what people don't see is the level of thought that goes into what I'm deciding prior to deciding it. When an opportunity presents itself, I simply jump on it based on already known, thought out or determined factors. I haven't found many people who share my line of thinking that's for certain.

  9. #319
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Caveat

    I do feel compelled to add that this is love we're talking about, people are incredibly complex, we self sooth, justify, live in denial, inherently avoid change, can pull the wool over our own eyes and the list of negative human qualities is overwhelming. We each have such different desires, needs, wants, passions and so on and much of the time we're fooling ourselves or idealizing situations, people and things. So we're going to get hurt, we're going to hurt others, things are going to get tough, be rough, make us cry, we're either going to run or stand our ground and learn and both choices are likely to cause ourselves and others damage.

    I'm saying this because I started this thread many years ago because I'm so curious about this dynamic. Do I think it's "hands down the best", no way, that was my idealization of it, do I think it has the potential to be incredibly amazing even after getting my ass kicked by an INFJ or two, absolutely!

    So, let's please try to keep this super productive and positive, to avoid allowing the hurt of failed relationship to skew our words and intentions. Let's try to come up with something positive that will shed some light on potential pitfalls for INFJs and ENTPs that do love each other so they can work on growing as a couple and identifying where they are failing or falling short or misunderstanding each other.

    We're all very knowledgable in these matters and should be able to at least help illuminate the path for others.

  10. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I'm INCREDIBLY calculating and what people don't see is the level of thought that goes into what I'm deciding prior to deciding it.
    seriously? you've being in long term relationships with INFJs and haven't yet learned how cheap can people's claims be about their own personality when push comes to shove? if you want to make anyone believe how calculated you are, share: wtf are your calculations here? why does it make sense for @EcK, me, or anyone who knows the ride, and for fuck sake even for yourself, to have another romantic go with an INFJ, of all types?

    and FYI

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