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  1. #301
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Wow. You guys can be cold...
    I prefer to think of it as pragmatism and self-preservation, but cold works, too.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #302
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Fully agree, it's one of the main causes for the damage and hurt I have seen them cause others and one of my biggest fears in dating them. I have seen INFJs stay in relationships they weren't happy or even miserable in for 2, 3, 5 years which is unhealthy for everybody. I'm not actually certain what the motive is for not leaving, dragging things out and causing damage to the other person with knowing it's over yet not leaving yet I know this is a common issue. Maybe it's a struggle to speak up for their own needs, a fear of disappointing others, I'm not sure but it's there and a huge source of damage they cause yet seem oblivious to.
    INFJs seem to have weird processing issues when it comes to emotions. For myself, first I have to notice a pattern, then I have to figure out what specifically is triggering the emotion. Once I've got that sorted out, I have to try modifying my own behavior to see if I can change the dynamic. I have to feel like I've run experiments using every reasonable possibility and it takes me awhile to feel like I haven't missed anything. Then I would have to decide whether my life and/or that of my children would be significantly improved by ending the relationship. If it would not and I believe I can endure whatever it is that's bothering me for the foreseeable future without undue hardship, I will.

    There was a time in my marriage, about nine years into it, when I ran through the above protocol and it was an even tie but for one thing: I knew I would be celibate for an extended time if I left him and I did not much care for that idea. Things got better a few years later and have been good ever since, so I'm really glad I stayed with him. Of course, the issue was never whether or not I liked and loved him. That's never been in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I get it, I have a really amazing INTP friend that's with an INFJ, they seem to be a good match for each other in so many ways, they're really good together. I however have no comprehension what their dynamic is like when they're with strangers as I'm on the inside.

    Between myself and the INFJ I was with we have 6 kids, really pretty easy as I am not too far from a child myself so I could take a whole posse of kids and keep them entertained however, it can get overwhelming to say that least but on the parenting front when we had all of the kids in tow things were typically really balanced and enjoyable. I actually think having a lack of space bothered me far more than it bothered her.
    Hmmm. There wouldn't be an advantage there, then. I mean, not that we normally had fun wrangling the kids. We did it pretty well, but it exhausted both of us. We all survived and the kids seem reasonably well-adjusted, so I call it a win, but I very much enjoy the kids being older and more self-sufficient. It's been good for our marriage, too.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #303
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Fully agree, it's one of the main causes for the damage and hurt I have seen them cause others and one of my biggest fears in dating them. I have seen INFJs stay in relationships they weren't happy or even miserable in for 2, 3, 5 years which is unhealthy for everybody. I'm not actually certain what the motive is for not leaving, dragging things out and causing damage to the other person with knowing it's over yet not leaving yet I know this is a common issue. Maybe it's a struggle to speak up for their own needs, a fear of disappointing others, I'm not sure but it's there and a huge source of damage they cause yet seem oblivious to.
    I'd like to come back when I have more time to comment on this, but a couple issues for INFJs in particular is that part of their identity is in making sense of the inner world of other people. The Ni constructs a global sense of the patterns and Fe is outward focused on the subjective world of others' perception. To fail in making a connection, to fail in communication is more troubling to their world view. Just look at that horrible thread about "what INFJs do that drive you nuts". Look at the effort way beyond the call of duty that our INFJs put into that thread. In the past I would have done it as well, but have had to learn to protect myself earlier on in the process.

    When faced with a complex scenario of relationship, the INFJ attention will tend to have most of their energy focused on solving the relationship problem and can become completely unfocused to their own needs and feelings. I've certainly lost all sense of my own feelings and needs when trying to resolve conflicts. It is why they have to retreat to think alone because their empathy and focus on others confuses their own thoughts and feelings too much.

    So losing a sense of self (personal needs) combined with an identity and ethic of resolving relationship conflicts to a sense of peace, it is difficult for the INFJ to identity their extent of their unhappiness and to admit failure in creating peace with someone terribly important to them.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #304
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    why not ENFJs who are a lot more apt to push down Ni's assertion when these come into conflict with consideration? after all, being Fe dom is certainly not in the common trick bag of the average ENTP, and couldn't the act of being judging first rather then perceiving first be in itself a counter balance? alternatively, why not consider the common suggestion of soviet typology of going for ISFJs, our perfect functional opposites? wouldn't there be a wealth of growth to contribute to one another in someone so strong in our weakest points and vise versa? what about us taking the Fe edge by it's whiskers, and enjoying the magic of NiSe with NeSi with a well developed ISTP, even providing more challenge in the occasional Ti duel, and rarely giving a shit of who forgot the socks in the drier? in the most stressful of relationship conflicts, another thinker would certainly be nice. and if the ENTP is up for challenges, what about the challenge of Fi & Te? INTJ/ENTP dynamics are known to be hit or miss, why not combine the occasional hit with kiss? or maybe a power couple in the form of a well rounded ENTJ, someone to conquer a little slice of the world with?

    the term "best" demands a comparison with those it is better with, so let's have it. why would an INFJ be a better fit for an ENTP then any of those, or any of the others? the notion of "because of balance" seems exceptionally selective about what dimensions of each other a couple is best for balancing out.

  5. #305
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    INFJs seem to have weird processing issues when it comes to emotions. For myself, first I have to notice a pattern, then I have to figure out what specifically is triggering the emotion. Once I've got that sorted out, I have to try modifying my own behavior to see if I can change the dynamic. I have to feel like I've run experiments using every reasonable possibility and it takes me awhile to feel like I haven't missed anything. Then I would have to decide whether my life and/or that of my children would be significantly improved by ending the relationship. If it would not and I believe I can endure whatever it is that's bothering me for the foreseeable future without undue hardship, I will.

    There was a time in my marriage, about nine years into it, when I ran through the above protocol and it was an even tie but for one thing: I knew I would be celibate for an extended time if I left him and I did not much care for that idea. Things got better a few years later and have been good ever since, so I'm really glad I stayed with him. Of course, the issue was never whether or not I liked and loved him. That's never been in question.
    The above and the thread discussion brings this brings TED talk research to mind
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #306
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    The above and the thread discussion brings this brings TED talk research to mind
    I like that one. And I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there are several factors that I was aware of at the time, that I now know in retrospect that I didn't know before, and things that developed in ways I didn't expect that indicate, to me, it was a good decision.

    Consider that I was a thirty year old woman of average looks and no college degree and little work experience with four children between the ages of two and eight. As a single mother, life would have been sucky for us all. Marrying someone else would have been my best way to anything like a comfortable life. My prospects for finding a better and better off partner were pretty darn low. My husband was gone a lot for work, making little money, and withdrawn when he came home. He wasn't physically or verbally abusing me, just kind of leaving me out to dry because he couldn't cope. He wasn't unfaithful or drinking or gambling. What money he made went to taking care of us. We didn't argue. The sex wasn't super frequent, but it was good.

    Looking back, we basically just bit off more than we could chew and we were both struggling to deal with it. It would have likely been the same with anyone I was with in those circumstances.

    A few years later he got a better job, the kids were all in school all day and viola! our marriage improved dramatically.

    Our kids were going to get older whether I was with their dad, single or with someone else. That I would earn more as a single mom in the same time period than my husband ended up making more is highly unlikely. I could have theoretically got with a man making similar money or better money, also unlikely, but possible. But then we would have all the issues that go along with having a blended family.

    I don't have those with my kids' dad: no step-parent dynamics, not sorting out visitation, no child-support issues. That stuff can negatively impact a marriage.

    Now, as the TED talk indicates, I likely would have adjusted to the circumstances and been a similar degree of happy, but my circumstances would likely not have materially improved. So at the very least it's a toss-up and, having had step-parents, that's enough to make me glad I stayed.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #307
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I like that one. And I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there are several factors that I was aware of at the time, that I now know in retrospect that I didn't know before, and things that developed in ways I didn't expect that indicate, to me, it was a good decision.

    Consider that I was a thirty year old woman of average looks and no college degree and little work experience with four children between the ages of two and eight. As a single mother, life would have been sucky for us all. Marrying someone else would have been my best way to anything like a comfortable life. My prospects for finding a better and better off partner were pretty darn low. My husband was gone a lot for work, making little money, and withdrawn when he came home. He wasn't physically or verbally abusing me, just kind of leaving me out to dry because he couldn't cope. He wasn't unfaithful or drinking or gambling. What money he made went to taking care of us. We didn't argue. The sex wasn't super frequent, but it was good.

    Looking back, we basically just bit off more than we could chew and we were both struggling to deal with it. It would have likely been the same with anyone I was with in those circumstances.

    A few years later he got a better job, the kids were all in school all day and viola! our marriage improved dramatically.

    Our kids were going to get older whether I was with their dad, single or with someone else. That I would earn more as a single mom in the same time period than my husband ended up making more is highly unlikely. I could have theoretically got with a man making similar money or better money, also unlikely, but possible. But then we would have all the issues that go along with having a blended family.

    I don't have those with my kids' dad: no step-parent dynamics, not sorting out visitation, no child-support issues. That stuff can negatively impact a marriage.

    Now, as the TED talk indicates, I likely would have adjusted to the circumstances and been a similar degree of happy, but my circumstances would likely not have materially improved. So at the very least it's a toss-up and, having had step-parents, that's enough to make me glad I stayed.
    I dont know why, but that kind of logic applied to one's life, while it is something i do everyday for everything else, absolutly horrifies me when it comes to friends or romantic relationships.

    Morover, pretty much nothing horrifies me, so that makes it particularly interesting.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #308
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    mmh . i dont know guys.

    In my case I am particularly vulnerable to infjs overall, whether friends or romantic interests.
    But I can't really afford to be vulnerable. it breaks me, and it can take me years to pick up the pieces. As a risk taker when it comes to things that have potential to redefine my life I find most people do not share the same risk taking pattern, it is disappointing. I for example changed countries, cultures etc. at a moments notice. Stepping into a plane about 3 days after deciding, and deciding in less than a minute, and I can explain exactly why I made that choice. It was rational but the trick to me is stress management. I do not really, experience stress, if i do it probably equivates to a total mental breakdown curled up in a ball and moaning for your average stress prone infj.

    Correct me if wrong, but overall infjs are a very stressed type, (stress is a word I use rather than a real experience for me), they stress, then overanalyse, go into loops, hang onto the answer they find, the answer brings actionable relief, relief is needed, stress is feared, the answer become truth.

    While it's very understandable, I'm just not willing to deal with that kind of utter bullshit in my personal life.

    so all that to say that except if I lived 1000 years i'd probably never be ready to be so vulnerable to someone ever again. Then again im a risk taker, so. mhhh.

    You guys have fun keeping that thread alive.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #309
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I like that one. And I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there are several factors that I was aware of at the time, that I now know in retrospect that I didn't know before, and things that developed in ways I didn't expect that indicate, to me, it was a good decision.

    Consider that I was a thirty year old woman of average looks and no college degree and little work experience with four children between the ages of two and eight. As a single mother, life would have been sucky for us all. Marrying someone else would have been my best way to anything like a comfortable life. My prospects for finding a better and better off partner were pretty darn low. My husband was gone a lot for work, making little money, and withdrawn when he came home. He wasn't physically or verbally abusing me, just kind of leaving me out to dry because he couldn't cope. He wasn't unfaithful or drinking or gambling. What money he made went to taking care of us. We didn't argue. The sex wasn't super frequent, but it was good.

    Looking back, we basically just bit off more than we could chew and we were both struggling to deal with it. It would have likely been the same with anyone I was with in those circumstances.

    A few years later he got a better job, the kids were all in school all day and viola! our marriage improved dramatically.

    Our kids were going to get older whether I was with their dad, single or with someone else. That I would earn more as a single mom in the same time period than my husband ended up making more is highly unlikely. I could have theoretically got with a man making similar money or better money, also unlikely, but possible. But then we would have all the issues that go along with having a blended family.

    I don't have those with my kids' dad: no step-parent dynamics, not sorting out visitation, no child-support issues. That stuff can negatively impact a marriage.

    Now, as the TED talk indicates, I likely would have adjusted to the circumstances and been a similar degree of happy, but my circumstances would likely not have materially improved. So at the very least it's a toss-up and, having had step-parents, that's enough to make me glad I stayed.
    I'm not/wasn't in your shoes to question/judge your resolve, which naturally was a culmination of your thought process/life experience/expectations/fears/etc, and that's also not the point here, either. If anything, I'd speculate any reasoning now, will be like monday morning quarterbacking, just reinforcing what the TED video sheds light about.

    Regardless, I think it provides, as pointed out, an often [always?] neglected pov that plays a big role in the sort of pitfall dynamics that have been discussed in this thread, but not restricted to the specific MTBI pairing.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #310
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I dont know why, but that kind of logic applied to one's life, while it is something i do everyday for everything else, absolutly horrifies me when it comes to friends or romantic relationships.

    Morover, pretty much nothing horrifies me, so that makes it particularly interesting.
    Can you elaborate what horrifies you about the reasoning? Also are you still young enough to be looking forward to a life and partner that is different from parents and other role models you have seen? Raw pragmatism is more common in people middle-aged than those still young enough to be idealistic. A person can certainly remain idealistic throughout life, but I think it is rare for idealism to remain as pure throughout life as it is as a young adult. Her post sounds a lot like many people of many types who have been married longer than a decade, have struggled with finances and health, and who have children.

    Whether it is work or relationships, most people end up stuck, even trapped in circumstances that are much different than they had hoped for in their lives. I think that would be pretty disturbing to an ENTP or an ENFP in particular. People can make changes, but those changes have a higher cost the older you get. It would be really interesting to hear the specific aspects that horrify you.

    Edit: I understand what you are saying about INFJs being a "stressed type", although the specific progression and conclusion of your description seemed perhaps personalized to a specific INFJ. I had some trouble following it. For myself, I think I am not a pair for the huge majority of people. I wouldn't want to bother most with the way I operate and prefer to be alone unless I'm able to make a successful connection with a rare bird. I'm acutely aware of many aspects to my specific application of INFJ that most would prefer to interact with from afar and it does have to be with being too abstract, analytical, and "stressed" internally, and yet strangely enough way too laid back externally as well. There are a number of dichotomies in the INFJ personality type that people in general probably don't want to deal with.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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