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  1. #271
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I find dual introvert parings to be very comfort driven and, often the result of dating somebody that started out as a friend, this isn't exactly a bad thing but not for everybody. I would say INFPs tend to most commonly gravitate to these pairings in an effort to not disrupt their internal peace (which also makes Enneagram 9s the most common to date their own type). The down side to this type of relationship is that they take foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to actually play out, things that would become very quickly apparent as bottom lines, road blocks and red flags in a balanced relationship take years to manifest as there is no catalyst. This is also why you don't see E/E pairings (or two Enneagram 7s or 8s), it's very obvious that there is an imbalance right from the start.

    It has been my intention to revamp this entire post though I haven't with the intention of doing an update at some point. In theory, I feel this pairing is pretty damn amazing and incredibly growth driven but far from easy. The existential crises that seem to plaque both the ENTP and INFJ also seem potentially fatal. With both being healthy, grounded, well balanced and sufficiently mature, I think it's ideal though those qualities applied to any MBTI type should make for a wonderful relationship, I just feel this dynamic has the potential to offer a little something extra that breathes new life into each.

    With that having been said, I don't know many older 35+ people of either type that are actually in a healthy, life affirming relationship.
    i think this is a wonderfully written post.

    i agree that it is not easy. and i agree that that's not the point. relationships are not easy. the more relating, the less easy. relating takes work, dammit! communicative work. you gotta build an infrastructure of meaning to share. you may be able to be symbiotic and control behaviors, or bodies, but minds and hearts take an ongoing process of exploring both similarity and difference, of expressing and listening and empathizing. of comprehending the vastness within all things. of building constructs to bridge experience and also be willing to let them go, even when you become attached to them. like the gibran poem that says you need two separate pillars aware of their separateness to have a strong foundation for unity.

    and what comes out of this excessive relatability is integration, and the willingness to let go of the attachment to your specific way of seeing the world. most spiritual development is in the interstices between functions rather than in the functions themselves. letting go of that damned certainty, and being willing to relate to the unknown more openly, more fully.

    the joy of the dynamic is that it comes from two super fucking weird types, especially when you get to the real truthiness of the interior (beyond what they show others), when you truly relate to the spaciousness within and explore that and allow yourselves to teach other how to find your respective ways. and how you learn what it takes to try to make it work with each other in the conditions of this world as it is for us and the others surrounding us right now, the games we all play.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    and what comes out of this excessive relatability is integration, and the willingness to let go of the attachment to your specific way of seeing the world. most spiritual development is in the interstices between functions rather than in the functions themselves. letting go of that damned certainty, and being willing to relate to the unknown more openly, more fully.
    that's interesting, you describe the other side of the Ne/Ni coin pretty well - though for me it's letting go of the indulgent uncertainty, the patience zen like experience of seen the threads of thoughts develop and light up sparks at the back of your head, letting the throws Ne meld into the Ni'ers river banks... I have never known anyone who i can think thought threads as long as i have with the INxJs in my life.

    in the same time, i get the same thing with an INFJ buddy of mine. it's not as integrated, it's safe from a distance, has little to no co-dependence (beyond maybe some areas we'd only be comfortable talking to each other about), and pretty much never leads to sex (so far :p ), but the superb combination in that Ni/Ne capacity to generate new understandings is still there, whether its philosophy or each other's lives or writing or gaming. add to this that i have grown up in my parent's Ni/Ne storm, and very much connected with my INTJ father on that level - with the superb Ni/Ne connection (and the awkward Ti/Te connection). the point being: you don't have to be in a romantic Ne/Ni relationship to experience this.

  3. #273
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's interesting, you describe the other side of the Ne/Ni coin pretty well - though for me it's letting go of the indulgent uncertainty, the patience zen like experience of seen the threads of thoughts develop and light up sparks at the back of your head, letting the throws Ne meld into the Ni'ers river banks... I have never known anyone who i can think thought threads as long as i have with the INxJs in my life.

    in the same time, i get the same thing with an INFJ buddy of mine. it's not as integrated, it's safe from a distance, has little to no co-dependence (beyond maybe some areas we'd only be comfortable talking to each other about), and pretty much never leads to sex (so far :p ), but the superb combination in that Ni/Ne capacity to generate new understandings is still there, whether its philosophy or each other's lives or writing or gaming. add to this that i have grown up in my parent's Ni/Ne storm, and very much connected with my INTJ father on that level - with the superb Ni/Ne connection (and the awkward Ti/Te connection). the point being: you don't have to be in a romantic Ne/Ni relationship to experience this.
    i agree fully. and as far as relationships go, i wouldn't even be able to be in a relationship with an entp if one of the best friend's i've ever had wasn't an entp who taught and continues to teach me a great deal. before that, i had never felt used as much as i had with two different entp females. now i think i understand where y'all are coming from a bit better. and i also see the difference between those who are mature enough to both understand and practice good faith and those who are not. my entp friend has done as much as anyone to teach me about recognizing this difference and taking accountability myself to try to do it for myself, on my own. i appreciate that many infps in my life have also contributed, but it's harder and more indirect and takes longer for it all to sink in when crossing over the Fe/Fi Ti/Te divide. just more translation, and a willingness to stay with the process even as issues come up from miscommunication.

    and while i have experienced many amazing things from my friendships with entps, there is a realm of a more exclusive kind of validation that i do think you get when you actually commit to validating each other within the confines of the gender games that are so central to our identities. with my male entp friends, we can explore the topic and offer support in various ways, but we can't own the choice to commit in the same way. when you do, this allows you to work through different issues in the context of a sexual, one-to-one, mating relationship. this is the weirdly creative, spiritually enriching part of monogamy that sometimes gets lost, i think. letting go of other possibilities is the biggest gift you can give. it is a form of sacrifice, and doing so creates a surplus that can rebuild us and help make us whole. it's how we perform the deepest truth of what matters most to us. by letting go of other things.

    finally, as a 5, i totally relate to just kind of getting lost in the pleasure of information. i think of certainty on two levels. a lot of times, j just feels like certainty to others. but in a way, i think, it's really more about stability. certainty comes more from experience. really more a p sense of knowing what is real and actual. but then, on another level, i think certainty is just the experience of overidentifying with the functions that you feel comfortable with. the openness that happens when you exist in time and space differently, when your sense of you isn't the same overarching pathway but is instead a strange and unusual one whose awareness has different properties and psychological functions and blindspots and assumptions that go into the very construction of the experience in its very essence but is instead something bigger that includes even a kind of awareness about the awareness that has been you, then i think that is what counteracts certainty. mindfulness just has to do with organizing the layers of the mind and recognizing the limitations through all the different ways we can be present (and how those project different ways of being in the world and different relationships between those ways as we've stored memories across those in assymetrical, prejudiced, overly fixated growth patterns).

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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i agree fully. and as far as relationships go, i wouldn't even be able to be in a relationship with an entp if one of the best friend's i've ever had wasn't an entp who taught and continues to teach me a great deal. before that, i had never felt used as much as i had with two different entp females. now i think i understand where y'all are coming from a bit better. and i also see the difference between those who are mature enough to both understand and practice good faith and those who are not. my entp friend has done as much as anyone to teach me about recognizing this difference and taking accountability myself to try to do it for myself, on my own. i appreciate that many infps in my life have also contributed, but it's harder and more indirect and takes longer for it all to sink in when crossing over the Fe/Fi Ti/Te divide. just more translation, and a willingness to stay with the process even as issues come up from miscommunication.

    and while i have experienced many amazing things from my friendships with entps, there is a realm of a more exclusive kind of validation that i do think you get when you actually commit to validating each other within the confines of the gender games that are so central to our identities. with my male entp friends, we can explore the topic and offer support in various ways, but we can't own the choice to commit in the same way. when you do, this allows you to work through different issues in the context of a sexual, one-to-one, mating relationship. this is the weirdly creative, spiritually enriching part of monogamy that sometimes gets lost, i think. letting go of other possibilities is the biggest gift you can give. it is a form of sacrifice, and doing so creates a surplus that can rebuild us and help make us whole. it's how we perform the deepest truth of what matters most to us. by letting go of other things.

    finally, as a 5, i totally relate to just kind of getting lost in the pleasure of information. i think of certainty on two levels. a lot of times, j just feels like certainty to others. but in a way, i think, it's really more about stability. certainty comes more from experience. really more a p sense of knowing what is real and actual. but then, on another level, i think certainty is just the experience of overidentifying with the functions that you feel comfortable with. the openness that happens when you exist in time and space differently, when your sense of you isn't the same overarching pathway but is instead a strange and unusual one whose awareness has different properties and psychological functions and blindspots and assumptions that go into the very construction of the experience in its very essence but is instead something bigger that includes even a kind of awareness about the awareness that has been you, then i think that is what counteracts certainty. mindfulness just has to do with organizing the layers of the mind and recognizing the limitations through all the different ways we can be present (and how those project different ways of being in the world and different relationships between those ways as we've stored memories across those in assymetrical, prejudiced, overly fixated growth patterns).
    the thing is, you need to be able to trust the other person to do that:

    from the INFJ perspective, I've heard many cases that their respective ENTPs weren't able to sacrifice their freedoms in possibilities: whether it is to meet ends meet and do what needs done, whether it is settling on a stable path both can follow, or in a few cases even in terms of loyalty, the ENTP version of the continues existential crisis - the never ending process of saying "no" to the bubbling realities they are choosing not to follow - and the failure to say no to the possibilities that can harm the INFJ, has let many INFJs down.
    from the ENTP perspective, my experience and that of all too many other data points on my baby Si radar, has being that when the going gets tough and the experience and reality of the ENTP has accumulated elements that reflect negatively on the INFJ and strip the absolute ideals of self, the unwillingness of INFJs to give up on the compartmentalized interpretation or understand the value in digging down towards a shared playing field where both perspectives matter, leads to the complete elimination of the ENTP's existence - as a being whose experience holds value to their reality - within the INFJs mind.

    the storm is like a trance, but when their is interweaving, the blindspots can outright kill each other. so doesn't it make more sense to enjoy it from a safe distance?

  5. #275
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the thing is, you need to be able to trust the other person to do that:

    from the INFJ perspective, I've heard many cases that their respective ENTPs weren't able to sacrifice their freedoms in possibilities: whether it is to meet ends meet and do what needs done, whether it is settling on a stable path both can follow, or in a few cases even in terms of loyalty, the ENTP version of the continues existential crisis - the never ending process of saying "no" to the bubbling realities they are choosing not to follow - and the failure to say no to the possibilities that can harm the INFJ, has let many INFJs down.
    from the ENTP perspective, my experience and that of all too many other data points on my baby Si radar, has being that when the going gets tough and the experience and reality of the ENTP has accumulated elements that reflect negatively on the INFJ and strip the absolute ideals of self, the unwillingness of INFJs to give up on the compartmentalized interpretation or understand the value in digging down towards a shared playing field where both perspectives matter, leads to the complete elimination of the ENTP's existence - as a being whose experience holds value to their reality - within the INFJs mind.

    the storm is like a trance, but when their is interweaving, the blindspots can outright kill each other. so doesn't it make more sense to enjoy it from a safe distance?
    i enjoy your description and feel like it captures some of the essence of infj and entp. i feel, tho, taking a step back, you're saying that you hurt the infj. i think acknowledging the significance and reality of the emotions of each party as they are is the only thing you can do at this point. not just try to solve something like it's an abstract problem. but to simply stay with the parts of yourself that are hurting, to find them and nurture them until they can let go of what is holding them back, until they can heal. not to just immediately try to set up a new game, to change the rules of behavior, but to truly know why, to know why we are what we are without respect to what we can and cannot do. also, if the parts of each other that are hurting are not yours as well, then you will not satisfy the infjs need for emotional connection. you will not actually build trust, faith in each other. you will simply build law.

    because you will hurt each other, regardless of what the problem is and how it is defined. some times that hurt will be unacceptable. some times it will be based on misunderstanding. some times you will let go of conditions you thought you needed (whose impinging upon would result in hurt) because you realize how your conditions affect others as well, and that the core of why you wanted that, and why that was important for you can evolve through sharing and communicating and understanding other viewpoints as well. many times it can also help reflect yourself to you in a way that you could not see before, and help you realize that what is valuable to you, what is emotionally positive or negative to you, can drastically change in different contexts with other people, when you can let aspects of yourself go. your sense of self can change when you truly feel yourself, catch up to the truth that has been waiting for you to actually fully absorb and embody and bring into the core of your being, and you can see where you are at enough to have freed up enough space to proceed in a way that was not clear before.

    when i imagine the conversations i've had with my entp 7w6 sx/so friend, i feel they are always challenging and yet warm and mutually accepting. however, they are not a process of negotiation beyond a strictly intellectual one. with the entp 3w4, my current s.o., she takes the lead in figuring out where we both are at. she's just better at it than i am, at managing the process of figuring out where we're both at on our own terms and keeping that clear when figuring out ways of bridging. i say this to just point out that i personally find 7w6 types so incredibly accepting but only up to a point; i don't find them willing to fully disclose their sense of possibilities in the same way because they're often equally unsure of what they want and oftentimes quite emotionally disconnected from themselves, especially from their conflicting feelings (and even when they are compassionate and in part trying to avoid needlessly hurting someone else, they are not fully compassionate with themselves so they don't relate to their own feelings mindfully enough as an interior to know how to convey the emotional truth with the sincerity it needs to still be authentic, even as it aims to be compassionate in its strategicness). to recognize that these conflicts often require less thought and more discernment, more feeling, is what helps them trust themselves enough to truly open up to someone else, to truly listen to them too. to not just lead them into a better space but to stay with them in a negative, threatening, potentially hostile one. you just can't really get much done together if you don't really get into what's true for both of you. and you can't really evolve that truth if you simply avoid disclosing the key pieces of it.

    and to be open to each other means to be open to negotiations that are potentially threatening to you but are necessary in order to NOT AVOID the problems and instead deal with them as courageously as possible. because, and this is part of that difficult Fe boundaries issue, you're afraid of losing love by upholding your own sense of what you need, is no excuse for trying to avoid the truth rather than truly getting into it and staying there enough until it discloses to you where you are at. emotional discernment is frightening, however, because you give up control, you submit to a process in which your truth could easily lead you into other hurt or work against many of your other goals in some seemingly unacceptable, unwanted way. and so you keep clinging to the notion that maybe there's a way everyone can win without truly accepting and listening to and acting on behalf of and ultimately loving your truth, your fate, as it is both yours and bigger than you at the same time, and as you do your best to honor it at all the different levels you can experience it, including the part of it that keeps bubbling up and opening new doors for you to move through.

    also, assistance with that integration problem is what you can appreciate from us. it is the Fe side of the coin that makes up us both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    with the entp 3w4, my current s.o.
    sounds like you have a beautiful dynamic - good luck to both of you


  7. #277
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the thing is, you need to be able to trust the other person to do that:

    from the INFJ perspective, I've heard many cases that their respective ENTPs weren't able to sacrifice their freedoms in possibilities: whether it is to meet ends meet and do what needs done, whether it is settling on a stable path both can follow, or in a few cases even in terms of loyalty, the ENTP version of the continues existential crisis - the never ending process of saying "no" to the bubbling realities they are choosing not to follow - and the failure to say no to the possibilities that can harm the INFJ, has let many INFJs down.
    from the ENTP perspective, my experience and that of all too many other data points on my baby Si radar, has being that when the going gets tough and the experience and reality of the ENTP has accumulated elements that reflect negatively on the INFJ and strip the absolute ideals of self, the unwillingness of INFJs to give up on the compartmentalized interpretation or understand the value in digging down towards a shared playing field where both perspectives matter, leads to the complete elimination of the ENTP's existence - as a being whose experience holds value to their reality - within the INFJs mind.

    the storm is like a trance, but when their is interweaving, the blindspots can outright kill each other. so doesn't it make more sense to enjoy it from a safe distance?

    Spoken like a true ENTP...in their 20s, you don't state your age but I'm guessing from your post you haven't hit the 30s mark yet, or your speaking from experiences in your 20s.

    ENTPs tend to have this ego driven Ne/Ti bullshit going on in their 20s because they're so quick to process and treat that like a superpower. The reality however is that we're a cat playing with a bunch of mice thinking we're somehow superior when in fact we aren't. Sometimes we're dealing with a sensor and using their more concrete thinking against them or we're dealing with an introvert that may be smarter yet we overwhelm them with topic changes and overload them with questions and facts which, if given time they would poke all kinds of holes in. As such, our ego blinds us from the potential insights others have to offer us.

    Eventually we find ourselves sitting in a room full of dead mice and it stinks so our only desire is to find another cat to play with, an equal, a partner, somebody to build a life with not somebody to plug into our life. Once this happens, possibilities become less appealing because remember, at our core we're fairly non-functional flapping around in the wind like an ESFP might be okay with, we need that place of stability and comfort, a place to unleash our intense passion.

    I do agree on the ongoing existential crisis issue though I think this is very common to both the ENTP and INFJ as well as many other intuitives and by no means are sensors free of this. I can see how this may negatively impact an INFJ/ENTP couple though I feel depending on self awareness and both seeing things like that for what they are they may snap each other out of it though I can see it bringing the other down equally often.

    Neither type is an angel that's for certain, both manipulate, both struggle to find their place in the world, both cause others damage (in different ways) without knowing it, both have huge hearts, both are very loyal (in different ways), both spend too much time in their own heads, both have fairly large blind spots and both benefit from having the other type around the mirror those blind spots back.

    If you ask me, the success of this dynamic comes down to one simple thing, the couples willingness to yield to each others secondary function. I know for fact that my life and many of the relationships in it are far better off for having listened to the wisdom of an INFJ in matters of Fe and I know that many of the INFJs I'm close to are thankful for the accountability my Ti holds them to. Doing so is scary for both and requires enormous amounts of trust (which should be earned not given freely) but if they're able to brave this discomfort and not run (INFJs are runners that's for sure) these two types have a lot to learn from each other and both will live a much more enriched life for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    Eventually we find ourselves sitting in a room full of dead mice and it stinks so our only desire is to find another cat to play with, an equal, a partner, somebody to build a life with not somebody to plug into our life. Once this happens, possibilities become less appealing because remember, at our core we're fairly non-functional flapping around in the wind like an ESFP might be okay with, we need that place of stability and comfort, a place to unleash our intense passion.
    being there, done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I know for fact that my life and many of the relationships in it are far better off for having listened to the wisdom of an INFJ in matters of Fe
    yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I know that many of the INFJs I'm close to are thankful for the accountability my Ti holds them to.
    ...and there's where your house of cards breaks down: they do when what they have to be accountable for is easy, when it's cheap.

    basically my main concern is this: i need to be able to trust an SO - no matter the type - to be willing to acknowledge aspects of reality even when they are ugly & distasteful, especially when its the reality of their actions, and most critically of all - when it conflicts with their ideals of self. and no, i'm no going to trust a forest in the hands of someone who'd kickdown a tree and plug their fingers in their ears so that nobody they acknowledge is around to hear it, because frankly that would be insanely stupid.
    now when i came here i had and am still having a bad experience with only one INFJ (who i'm currently divorcing), but then i talked to others who have had very similar experiences following the same principles, and then i talked to INFJs who reinforced and justified acting on the very same principles - INFJs of all ages - so you can factor out maturity. their are those who have gained the benefit of my doubt, but of those, the ones i have opportunistically tested failed short by about a thousand light years, and i am in no hurry to test the rest.

    it seems to me that your selling here on the taste & smell - but i already know the taste and admit it can be wonderful - i am asking how come it seems everyone who eats the full meal seems to wake up sick to their stomachs with punctured colons the day after, and that is were you aren't delivering.

  9. #279
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Bottom line to this dynamic is..Neither type Ought to get into a relationship with each other unless both are strong and mature people, and honest intellectually, to say the least. Anything else with these two probably leads to a terrible relationshit.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

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    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...and there's where your house of cards breaks down: they do when what they have to be accountable for is easy, when it's cheap.

    basically my main concern is this: i need to be able to trust an SO - no matter the type - to be willing to acknowledge aspects of reality even when they are ugly & distasteful, especially when its the reality of their actions, and most critically of all - when it conflicts with their ideals of self. and no, i'm no going to trust a forest in the hands of someone who'd kickdown a tree and plug their fingers in their ears so that nobody they acknowledge is around to hear it, because frankly that would be insanely stupid.
    now when i came here i had and am still having a bad experience with only one INFJ (who i'm currently divorcing), but then i talked to others who have had very similar experiences following the same principles, and then i talked to INFJs who reinforced and justified acting on the very same principles - INFJs of all ages - so you can factor out maturity. their are those who have gained the benefit of my doubt, but of those, the ones i have opportunistically tested failed short by about a thousand light years, and i am in no hurry to test the rest.

    it seems to me that your selling here on the taste & smell - but i already know the taste and admit it can be wonderful - i am asking how come it seems everyone who eats the full meal seems to wake up sick to their stomachs with punctured colons the day after, and that is were you aren't delivering.
    Ahhhh, no comment seems like my wisest option. I will simply say that I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt...in several colors.

    I was giving a lot of thought to this topic today actually and concluded that there are issues I hadn't seen when I wrote this post. The above quote is one of the reasons why I say the success of this relationship hinges on each others ability to trust, default to and learn from the others secondary function. Maybe the issue your describing is the reason INFJs so often date Enneagram 9s, fellow introverts and their friends, to avoid watching their ideals come crashing down.

    I think of all the MBTI pairings this one is not only the hardest to get off the ground but also one with more potential than most so it's worth exploring what weak areas each will face going into it. Is it even possible, I actually don't know, maybe some INFJ or ENTP can chime in and say they've made it work for 10+ years and are happy.

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